Chris Roberts

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Delance said:
You are wrong, since he does finish the sentence, he says it's unimaginable. But he also recoginizes this was their fault, not Confed's. Something that you apparently miss. It's is not *nothing*, it's just something they can't imagine. Melek isn't saying the Kilrathi was destroyed, but that they had to find new ways if they wanted to survive. Melek makes a plea to Blair, which represents the Kilrathi making a plea to Humans:

“The Kilrathi can't die as a race.”

It was on Confed's hands. Genocide. It would be easy at that point. But instead, Confed accepts the plea and makes a generous effort to accommodate the Kilrathi and to easy their suffering, to the point of providing them with a *new* homeworld.
There you go using that incredibly narrow definition that Ed had. Both you Brazilians are terrible at trying to engage in semantics debates, and you do it so freakin often.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Except it’s not. “Destroy that hierarchy... and you destroy them." is what Paladin say. And I ask, who was destroyed? The Kilrathi? The Kilrathi are still round. No, the Kilrathi Empire was destroyed. If Confed wanted to destroy the Kilrathi, it could. But it didn’t. Confed didn’t refuse to accept their surrender. Confed didn’t lean upon the fact they had no homeworld, but instead decided to give them a new one. Confed didn’t enslave the Kilrathi, but gave them reparations! Confed didn’t rob their territory, but gave systems back. Confed was not bent on hate and genocide, it was defending itself. It was self-defense, not aggression.

Because the point is not destroying the planet. Paladin makes that completely clear. The point is destroying the Empire. Destroying the culture that makes the Kilrathi attack and enslave Confed citizens. The Kilrathi would never stop before this didn’t happen. This isn’t about a planet. Even if Confed had to use conventional means, it would still *have* to destroy the Kilrathi culture, or there would be no peace. Everyone knows the Kilrathi don’t accept peace. They nuke their embassies and execute your ambassadors when they think they can take you. So unless the culture that produces this is destroyed, Confed would not have a chance for peace.

They do have other clans, right? That action destroyed the Empire, but not the Kilrathi race. Their culture did not cease to exist. Perhaps it was genocide against the Emperor's clan, but not against the Kilrathi as a race.

Furthermore, the objective was a defensive one: to win the war and prevent further Kilrathi aggression. For as long as there was an Empire, there would be war. There could be no peace with the Kilrathi while there was an Empire and a Culture towards aggression. The terrible consequences of the attempt at peace made it impossible. Whose fault was that? The Kilrathi.

Confed could continue to pursue the Kilrathi forces, before or after accepting their surrender, but choose not to. Without a vast fleet to protect them, the Kilrathi would be an easy prey. Confed not only helped the Kilrathi but even paid reparations! Not the course of action of a government bent over the genocide.

So as you can see I don't entirely agree with either side on this matter. It could've been classified as genocide, but not in a proper way. The objective was not to destroy a race, but to stop an aggression. If the only way to do that was to destroy the Empire, and the Kilrathi culture of aggression and enslavement with it, perhaps that's what Confed ha to do. But that's not the same as targeting the Kilrathi for bigotry, racism or imperialism, it was not a petty maneuver to steal their territory or open their market to sell them products.

The Kilrathi "culture" made them be at constant war to conquer mankind, so not only destroying that "culture" was justifiable, it was the only way at all. The Kilrathi would not surrender and would not accept peace. It was their responsibility to have made this an absolute choice between "genocide" and surrender, so what happened is at least as much their fault as it is Confed’s.

Since the Kilrathi surrender, Confed did act in a respectful and humane way, gave the cats a new home world, not enslaving them or made them suffer terribly for the crimes they perpetrated. We know it was not a purely act of vengeance and hate. The term "genocide" has strong connotations of something hateful and wrong, and if what Confed did was justifiable, or if Confed had no alternative, than its use is at least misleading if not downright wrong.

The destruction of Kilrah was a terrible, terrible thing. But what were the alternatives? Confed would have to fight this war forever, or until one of the sides were defeated. And since the Kilrathi culture dictate they don’t surrender, the only way to defeat them was to destroy this culture. There was no other way.

Saying it was wrong doesn’t cut it. This is a matter of alternatives. If the Kilrathi culture says they can never surrender, how to win against them without destroying this culture? Total destruction? Isn’t the destruction of this part of their culture preferable to their own ultimate doom? A lot of Kilrathi were left after Kilrah. If they had to fight to the last one of them because of their culture, it would not be the case. So how can you say it would be best? What options did Confed have? Surrender? Be enslaved? That’s unacceptable by the culture of Confed. It was a battle of cultures, and one of them had to go.

It gets down to this:

To enslave mankind, the Kilrathi Empire would have to destroy Confed. To prevent this, Confed had to thestroy the Kilrathi Empire. Confed won.
You're not arguing that it isn't genocide, though, you're just trying to justify genocide. The part of your argument that connects what you're saying to anything else is incredibly poor -- that *you* don't like the word genocide regardless of what it means!

Also, the basic argument itself is badly flawed: the Kilrathi culture *doesn't* require that they conquer a foe. The Mantu are proof of this. The Mantu won a conventional war with the Empire without needing to wipe out Kilrah itself (a war with, in fact, the same nar Kiranka dynasty).

Also, minor point of fact, the Confederation did not return star systems: places that were originally Kilrathi-held like Tartarus and Loki remained in Confederation hands.

As Thrakkath once said on WC2, such coincidences are very common in WC debates. If having people who uniformly agrees with you on every discussion gave people a dollar, you’d be filthy rich. Apparently, like having an agenda, it’s supposed to be evil only when it happens with me. Not to mention, of course, it *doesn't*, and Edmo and I disagree in a number of things, including, but not limited to, WC.

He doesn’t even agree with me on this thread. He disagrees with you, and apparently that’s the same thing. Either way, it's odd that you think it's inconcievable that anyone could honstly agree with me.
You realize that Thrakhath is being *sarcastic*, right? "Such accidents are common in are family" is Thrakhath saying 'we both know that wasn't a accident'.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Bandit LOAF said:
You're not arguing that it isn't genocide, though, you're just trying to justify genocide. The part of your argument that connects what you're saying to anything else is incredibly poor -- that *you* don't like the word genocide regardless of what it means!
It wasn't not genocide against the Kilrathi race. It was, perhaps, genocide against a single clan. There was no deliberate action to destroy the Kilrathi race and culture after it ceased to be a threat, but otherwise to preserve it. They didn't prevent Kilrathi from having clans, which were an important part of their culture. There was no cultural genocide, as argued in parts of this thread.

Genocide is more than a single action, but systematic and deliberate action to destroy something. The objective of Confed was not to destroy the Kilrathi culure, but to make the Kilrathi stop killing people. Rather different.

Also, minor point of fact, the Confederation did not return star systems: places that were originally Kilrathi-held like Tartarus and Loki remained in Confederation hands.
And yet blue dots became red dots on the map. Ghora Khar had confed citizens, but they were allowed to return to their brethren. A cultural genocide, as with Quatro’s example of aborigines on Australaia, would let not happen.

Also, the basic argument itself is badly flawed: the Kilrathi culture *doesn't* require that they conquer a foe. The Mantu are proof of this. The Mantu won a conventional war with the Empire without needing to wipe out Kilrah itself (a war with, in fact, the same nar Kiranka dynasty).
I adressed the issue of the Mantu. Peace with the Kilrathi Empire was made considerably harder after their betrayal. The Kilrathi themselves made it unreasonable for Confed accept peace with the Empire.

You realize that Thrakhath is being *sarcastic*, right? "Such accidents are common in are family" is Thrakhath saying 'we both know that wasn't a accident'.
I was being sarcastic as well. But without the *. What I did mean, however, is that this kind of thing is indeed *common* on WC, even if it was not the case with me.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Delance said:
Genocide is more than a single action, but systematic and deliberate action to destroy something. The objective of Confed was not to destroy the Kilrathi culure, but to make the Kilrathi stop killing people. Rather different.
I understand English isn't your best language, so read the English dictionary link I pasted. Destruction of Kilrathi culture isn't necessary to use the genocide term. Destruction of a political or nationalistic entity such as the Kiranka Clan or Kilrathi Empire qualifies just fine. There's no debate about this unless you ignore the clear factual information given to you.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
It wasn't not genocide against the Kilrathi race. It was, perhaps, genocide against a single clan. There was no deliberate action to destroy the Kilrathi race and culture after it ceased to be a threat, but otherwise to preserve it. They didn't prevent Kilrathi from having clans, which were an important part of their culture. There was no cultural genocide, as argued in parts of this thread.

Genocide is more than a single action, but systematic and deliberate action to destroy something. The objective of Confed was not to destroy the Kilrathi culure, but to make the Kilrathi stop killing people. Rather different.
You're being absurd. In the game you love beyond all reason the Kilrathi are clearly presented as an analog for American Indians in the 19th century -- Melek is being shipped off to a Kilrathi reservation. Wing Commander IV is specifically trying to present the conceot of cultural genocide.

And yet blue dots became red dots on the map. Ghora Khar had confed citizens, but they were allowed to return to their brethren. A cultural genocide, as with Quatro’s example of aborigines on Australaia, would let not happen.
You're assuming based on a map made twelve years after the end of the war. We have no idea what happened to Ghorah Khar or when it happened. We know, for instance, that the Empire was very interested in retaking Ghorah Khar... and that they launched a massive offensive in the last days of the war. At the same time, we know that lots of star systems *left* the Confederation after the war and were allowed to go... there's a million possibilities here.

We don't even know the circumstances under which Ghorah Khar joined the Confederation in the first place -- it may very well have been a 'until the curren war is over' sort of treaty in the first place.

I adressed the issue of the Mantu. Peace with the Kilrathi Empire was made considerably harder after their betrayal. The Kilrathi themselves made it unreasonable for Confed accept peace with the Empire.
... and yet the Confederation *did* make peace with the Empire. Your argument makes no sense. We - and the Confederation! - know from historical evidence that the Kilrathi can be forced to surrender through conventional warfare.

I was being sarcastic as well. But without the *. What I did mean, however, is that this kind of thing is indeed *common* on WC, even if it was not the case with me.
I have no idea what that means, then.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
ChrisReid said:
I understand English isn't your best language, so read the English dictionary link I pasted. Destruction of Kilrathi culture isn't necessary to use the genocide term. Destruction of a political or nationalistic entity such as the Kiranka Clan or Kilrathi Empire qualifies just fine. There's no debate about this unless you ignore the clear factual information given to you.
Not exactly the same, there's a difference between a "regime change" and genocide. While the US is commonly (even if not correctly) accused of genocide for the use of atomic weapons, it's not the case with it's radical changed imposed to the Japanese Empire, which at least kept it’s name and Emperor, or the complete destruction of the "political or nationalistic" entities of the rest of the Axis, or at least its reorganization towards Allied principles, to the point of cutting Germany in half. None of that would qualify as genocide. I agree that the destruction of the Clan could be classified of genocide, but not the Empire as a political entity.

Bandit LOAF said:
You're being absurd. In the game you love beyond all reason the Kilrathi are clearly presented as an analog for American Indians in the 19th century -- Melek is being shipped off to a Kilrathi reservation. Wing Commander IV is specifically trying to present the conceot of cultural genocide.
That's not a good analogy, is Confed colonizing and occupying Kilrathi land, in other to have to ship them to reservations? Cultural Genocide would include destroying their clan structure to the very least, since it's one of their most basic things. It’s not something done on a single blow, it requires a more systematic and deliberate attempt to accomplish something. We see any evidence of a continued effort from Confed to destroy the Kilrathi culture?

You're assuming based on a map made twelve years after the end of the war. We have no idea what happened to Ghorah Khar or when it happened. We know, for instance, that the Empire was very interested in retaking Ghorah Khar... and that they launched a massive offensive in the last days of the war. At the same time, we know that lots of star systems *left* the Confederation after the war and were allowed to go... there's a million possibilities here.
But all those possibilities must include the fact that the Kilrathi on Ghora Khar were once Confed citizens. Had they still wished to remain in the Confederation, what would've stopped them? We even see any evidence Confed is trying to make the Kilrathi less “kilrathi”? The other way around happens on WCIV, when a group supposedly tries to make mankind “more like the Kilrathi”, on a very different context.

We don't even know the circumstances under which Ghorah Khar joined the Confederation in the first place -- it may very well have been a 'until the curren war is over' sort of treaty in the first place.
Of course it could, but such an arrangement would not reinforce the idea of a cultural genocide.

.. and yet the Confederation *did* make peace with the Empire. Your argument makes no sense. We - and the Confederation! - know from historical evidence that the Kilrathi can be forced to surrender through conventional warfare.
Confederation destroyed the Kilrathi Empire, it ceased to exist after the war, and that was the only peace. Historical evidence recent on WC3, and even present on its opening cutscene, shows that peace with the Kilrathi was not much of an option at that moment.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
That's not a good analogy, is Confed colonizing and occupying Kilrathi land, in other to have to ship them to reservations? Cultural Genocide would include destroying their clan structure to the very least, since it's one of their most basic things. It’s not something done on a single blow, it requires a more systematic and deliberate attempt to accomplish something. We see any evidence of a continued effort from Confed to destroy the Kilrathi culture?
What the hell are you talking about? You're describing EXACTLY WHAT THE T-BOMB DID. It was a deliberate attempt to destroy their clan structure. The Confederation wiped out an entire clan of Kilrathi to break their Empire apart.

But all those possibilities must include the fact that the Kilrathi on Ghora Khar were once Confed citizens. Had they still wished to remain in the Confederation, what would've stopped them? We even see any evidence Confed is trying to make the Kilrathi less “kilrathi”? The other way around happens on WCIV, when a group supposedly tries to make mankind “more like the Kilrathi”, on a very different context.
Again, what the hell are you talking about? Kilrathi on Ghorah Khar were Confederation citizens at one point during the war... that's *all* we know. We have no idea what their status was at the end of the war.

Were they still part of the Confederation when the war ended? Were they a system that left after the war? Were they forced out by the Confederation? By political necessity? By human racism? Was their departure something they determined in advance when The Council made its treaty with the Confederation?

... and all of that is completely nullified if it's simply one of the planets the Empire conquered and kept at the end of the war. I imagine the *humans* on Torgo weren't happy to be citizens of the Empire for four years because the Confederation wasn't willing to demand the system be returned after the surrender.


And evidence that the Confederation is trying to make the Kilrathi less Kilrathi? Maybe the fact that we slaughtered billions of them in a deliberate attempt to destroy their entire culture... and then, in place of a political clan structure we created for them a puppet government based on human ideals? ... all the while looking the other way and pretending that what we'd done *wasn't* simply to inspire the surviving elements of their previous system to begin a bloody civil war?

Of course it could, but such an arrangement would not reinforce the idea of a cultural genocide.
I don't see how - in light of Wing Commander IV - anyone can force a star system to remain part of the Confederation. We have no idea what's going on on Ghorah Khar.

Confederation destroyed the Kilrathi Empire, it ceased to exist after the war, and that was the only peace. Historical evidence recent on WC3, and even present on its opening cutscene, shows that peace with the Kilrathi was not much of an option at that moment.
Concede the point unless you can counter it, Delance - do not play inane word games, you don't know that many words. The Kilrathi were defeated by the Mantu - *that* is history.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Bandit LOAF said:
What the hell are you talking about? You're describing EXACTLY WHAT THE T-BOMB DID. It was a deliberate attempt to destroy their clan structure. The Confederation wiped out an entire clan of Kilrathi to break their Empire apart.
Yeah, that's what they did, they destroyed the Empire and won the war. I was not talking about the actual bombing of Kilrah, which we all agree happened, but the lack of a post-war deliberate and systematical effort of Confed to commit genocide against the Kilrathi.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Kilrathi on Ghorah Khar were Confederation citizens at one point during the war... that's *all* we know. We have no idea what their status was at the end of the war.

Were they still part of the Confederation when the war ended? Were they a system that left after the war? Were they forced out by the Confederation? By political necessity? By human racism? Was their departure something they determined in advance when The Council made its treaty with the Confederation?
I have no idea, I just said that if they were *still* part of Confed it would make for a much *stronger* case for cultural genocide. I never claimed to know what happened on Ghora Khar. That question reminds me of the WC2 intro.

... and all of that is completely nullified if it's simply one of the planets the Empire conquered and kept at the end of the war. I imagine the *humans* on Torgo weren't happy to be citizens of the Empire for four years because the Confederation wasn't willing to demand the system be returned after the surrender.
That's not a continued, sustained effort to commit cultural genocide after the destruction of Kilrah. And if Confed was bent on the systematic and deliberate genocide against the Kilrathi, why on the world would they allow them to keep Torgo after their *surrender*? Why give reparations to the same people you are on the process of committing genocide against?

And evidence that the Confederation is trying to make the Kilrathi less Kilrathi? Maybe the fact that we slaughtered billions of them in a deliberate attempt to destroy their entire culture... and then, in place of a political clan structure we created for them a puppet government based on human ideals? ... all the while looking the other way and pretending that what we'd done *wasn't* simply to inspire the surviving elements of their previous system to begin a bloody civil war?
But isn't the Kilrathi culture one of constant conflict and war? Without the stabilizing power of the Emperor, wasn't the inherent risk on civil war a possibility well established inside Wing Commander? Isn’t that Kilrathi being Kilrathi, warriors above all, and not some politically correct pseudo-Confederation harmonic group? Wouldn’t it be interfering with their imposing Confederation cultural values?

I don't see how - in light of Wing Commander IV - anyone can force a star system to remain part of the Confederation. We have no idea what's going on on Ghorah Khar.
Nor does Thrakkath at the beginning of WC2.

Concede the point unless you can counter it, Delance - do not play inane word games, you don't know that many words. The Kilrathi were defeated by the Mantu - *that* is history.
Of course they were. I had no intention to dispute that fact. Another historical fact of interest to Confed is the fact that Kilrathi pretended to make peace to betray them and almost destroyed Earth. Could Confed ever expect to beat them the way the Mantu did? Sure. In fact, they almost did. However that seemed more like a distant dream on WC3.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I have no idea, I just said that if they were *still* part of Confed it would make for a much *stronger* case for cultural genocide. I never claimed to know what happened on Ghora Khar. That question reminds me of the WC2 intro.
If they were still part of the Confederation it would say nothing but that the population of Ghorah Khar chose to remain part of the Confederation. Ghorah Khar is not a conquest on the part of the Confederation, it is a group that joined of its own free will. Like Firekka, it can opt to stay or leave.

Now, on the other hand, we know the Confederation *did* keep the Kilrathi systems it captured -- Kurasawa, Loki, Tartarus... those weren't Confederation colonies, they were Kilrathi systems forced into the Confederation. The fact that they're still part of the Confederation seems to indicate 'cultural genocide' (by your definition).

That's not a continued, sustained effort to commit cultural genocide after the destruction of Kilrah. And if Confed was bent on the systematic and deliberate genocide against the Kilrathi, why on the world would they allow them to keep Torgo after their *surrender*? Why give reparations to the same people you are on the process of committing genocide against?
Forcing the Kilrathi to give up their feudal system in favor of an elected assembly seems to be a continued, sustained effort -- not that either of those things are necessary for our definition.

Why let them keep Torgo? Because they felt guilty about using the T-Bomb -- about committing genocide.

But isn't the Kilrathi culture one of constant conflict and war? Without the stabilizing power of the Emperor, wasn't the inherent risk on civil war a possibility well established inside Wing Commander? Isn’t that Kilrathi being Kilrathi, warriors above all, and not some politically correct pseudo-Confederation harmonic group? Wouldn’t it be interfering with their imposing Confederation cultural values?
The Confederation *did* impose it's values -- and completely ignored the results. Chancellor Melek indeed.

Nor does Thrakkath at the beginning of WC2.
I don't see what that has to do with this situation, so I'll take yet another opportunity to point out that his name is Thrakhath.

Of course they were. I had no intention to dispute that fact. Another historical fact of interest to Confed is the fact that Kilrathi pretended to make peace to betray them and almost destroyed Earth. Could Confed ever expect to beat them the way the Mantu did? Sure. In fact, they almost did. However that seemed more like a distant dream on WC3.
I don't see what this has to do with your original claim, which was that it was impossible for the war to be won conventionally because the Kilrathi culture would not allow this. We - and the Confederation - know that this is not true and that, in fact, wars *had* been won against the Kilrathi conventionally.

I fail to see how the Battle of Terra changes this in any way -- any more than thousands of other terrible things that happened in the war affected relations between the two sides. You're acting like both sides loved eachother up until 2668 somehow... which is crazy -- they're fighting a violent terrible war. I'm sure there was no love lost between the Kilrathi and the Mantu, either... but a tactical defeat forced an end to the war none the less.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Bandit LOAF said:
If they were still part of the Confederation it would say nothing but that the population of Ghorah Khar chose to remain part of the Confederation. Ghorah Khar is not a conquest on the part of the Confederation, it is a group that joined of its own free will. Like Firekka, it can opt to stay or leave.

Now, on the other hand, we know the Confederation *did* keep the Kilrathi systems it captured -- Kurasawa, Loki, Tartarus... those weren't Confederation colonies, they were Kilrathi systems forced into the Confederation. The fact that they're still part of the Confederation seems to indicate 'cultural genocide' (by your definition).
Yes, yes, shame on you for using my definitions against me. But do we know about what happens there or is it like Ghora Khar?

Forcing the Kilrathi to give up their feudal system in favor of an elected assembly seems to be a continued, sustained effort -- not that either of those things are necessary for our definition.
Well, it was an assembly of *clans*, which are feudal entities. Regardless, it might simply be the victor imposing government changed on the defeated.

Why let them keep Torgo? Because they felt guilty about using the T-Bomb -- about committing genocide.
But what about those poor people living in Torgo? Confed had a base there for crying out loud. Are those humans forksaken by Confed? Or just the planet?

The Confederation *did* impose it's values -- and completely ignored the results. Chancellor Melek indeed.
He did report something to his Hrai about Blair.

I don't see what that has to do with this situation, so I'll take yet another opportunity to point out that his name is Thrakhath.
I like to comment on random WC quotes. What better place than here? (rethorical question)

I don't see what this has to do with your original claim, which was that it was impossible for the war to be won conventionally because the Kilrathi culture would not allow this. We - and the Confederation - know that this is not true and that, in fact, wars *had* been won against the Kilrathi conventionally.

I fail to see how the Battle of Terra changes this in any way -- any more than thousands of other terrible things that happened in the war affected relations between the two sides. You're acting like both sides loved eachother up until 2668 somehow... which is crazy -- they're fighting a violent terrible war. I'm sure there was no love lost between the Kilrathi and the Mantu, either... but a tactical defeat forced an end to the war none the less.
Allright, let's put it under a different light. It was not impossible for Confed to win, but much much diffcult and probably less desirable. Of course it's a possibility on itself.

Another different point is that the concept of a peace treaty with the Kilrathi, instead of their surrender, was probably no longer a well regarded option after their betrayal. That doesn't meant the can't be defeated on a conventional method, just like they can't be tursted to make peace *unless* they are. And that it does indeed have something to do with their culture, just look at Thrakhath (now with correct spelling) on the intro, mocking Angel about co-existence.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
I find it remarkable that someone who on more than a few occasions has complained about moral relativism would have the gall to argue that it wasn't genocide, because it was justified. That's exactly the kind of ugly relativism you should be complaining about, Delance. I don't really care whether the use of the T-Bomb was justified or not - the question has no impact whatsoever on how we describe the action. Similarly, if I burn down your house, it doesn't matter if I did so just for the fun of it, or because there was some horrible disease in your house that I could stop by burning it down - it may or may not have been justified, but either way, it's still arson.

And yes, damn it, it was genocide - the action was a deliberate attempt to destroy everything the Kilrathi culture was based on. The fact that Confed allowed the Kilrathi to rebuild their culture in a more benign form doesn't change the fact that they first destroyed the malign form - and it makes no difference whatsoever whether, as Melek says, the Kilrathi had become slaves to their bloodlust. The fact remains that their culture was founded upon certain things, and the destruction of Kilrah completely destroyed the Kilrathi culture as we know it. Even those Kilrathi who did not submit to the new, Confed-approved culture, were affected.

Finally, on the note of whether co-existence with the Kilrathi was possible or not. At the time when the Behemoth project was first initiated, Confed was actively aiding a Kilrathi planet that had rebelled from the Empire and joined the Confederation, proving beyond all doubts that co-existence with the Kilrathi was indeed absolutely possible. The "Kilrathi do not co-exist, so we must destroy Kilrah" theory can be sort of justified in 2668, after the battle of Terra... but if you consider the context in which the decision to build a planet-killer weapon was first made, it's clear that this theory was not the argument on which the decision was based.
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Angels quote about The kilrathi not coexisting can't really be taken out of context either. First, angel has been fighting a long war and watched many comrads die, including moments earlier when her covert cell was vaporized. She *hates* the Kilrathi. She see's them as an enemy that needs stopped at all cost... an enemy that is ruthless. I'm certaim she comes to accept Hobbes and the Gorah Khar rebels but as a whole a lingering hatred for kilrathi exists. Are japanese people horrible? I think not! But ask an allied World War II vet that served in the pacific. My wifes grandfather is a surgeon (retired now) that served in the pacific (British) and you really don't want to hear the words he has for all japanese. And this is stuff from 60 years ago yet somehow thats how he feels about *all* japanese.

Second, Angel might also be correct in the sense that the Kilrathi will not co-exist in a manner that humans will find acceptable. Any concessions that the Kilrathi might demand could very well be unacceptable to confed. Slavery is a form of co-existence. So is conceding territory along with significant trade sanctions. Imagine that! Humans being sort-of free as long as they send X number of ore shipments to kilrah a week and dont arm themselves.

Either way, the particular quote can not be forced to be the end all of whether or not The kilrathi will demand the death of all humans as the only way to end the conflict.

But there is still the possibility that should the conflict go on to its end, its possible the war could end in confeds favor, and then what of those built up hatreds for the kilrathi? Cobra wasn't the only one who hated the cats. Could it be that the only real thing standing between coexisting with the kilrathi is that we just don't want to?

What happened to japan after the war? There were a lot of key cultural differences and indeed there still are, but I think the co-existing part is getting along just fine despite what any old war vet may feel about the people.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Bandit LOAF said:
Gosh darnit, Ed, that's what this giant thread was *about* -- we had a long discussion about how the Kilrathi couldn't actually wipe out mankind because their entire economy and way of life and conceot of expansion is based around slavery, we had a long talk about how failing to destroy Kilrah didn't necessarily mean that Earth would be destroyed... everything you just summarized in this paragraph is something we debated to bits in this specific thread.
So what is the conclusion here? That Confed was wrong and that Tolwyn was right? is that the agenda behind this "debate"? This is a big display of revisionism...
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Yes, yes, shame on you for using my definitions against me. But do we know about what happens there or is it like Ghora Khar?
I don't see any question - they were planets settled by the Kilrathi that were kept by the Confederation.


But what about those poor people living in Torgo? Confed had a base there for crying out loud. Are those humans forksaken by Confed? Or just the planet?
The Kilrathi took Torgo in the last few days of the war -- I doubt that base still exists.

He did report something to his Hrai about Blair.
Hrai is Kilrathi for family, it's distinct from a Thrak'hra clan. Ralgha was Ralgha nar Hhallas (same noble clan as Bhuk nar Hhallas, Gharal nar Hhallas and Kukubono nar Hhallas), but he was the only surviving member of his hrai.

Allright, let's put it under a different light. It was not impossible for Confed to win, but much much diffcult and probably less desirable. Of course it's a possibility on itself.

Another different point is that the concept of a peace treaty with the Kilrathi, instead of their surrender, was probably no longer a well regarded option after their betrayal. That doesn't meant the can't be defeated on a conventional method, just like they can't be tursted to make peace *unless* they are. And that it does indeed have something to do with their culture, just look at Thrakhath (now with correct spelling) on the intro, mocking Angel about co-existence.
... but that's exactly what they continued to pursue and eventually got: a peace treaty with the Kilrathi. You're arguing for genocide on a much wider scale. (And again, I fail to see what the False Peace has to do with anything or why it would sour 'relations' with the Kilrathi any more tha 35 years of terrible war already did.)

And really... not impossible but much more difficult? What a horrible, horrible, horrible excuse to do anything - much less kill billions of people.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
So what is the conclusion here? That Confed was wrong and that Tolwyn was right? is that the agenda behind this "debate"? This is a big display of revisionism...
What the hell are you talking about? This has nothing to do with Tolwyn - he had his own plan to destroy Kilrah.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Ok, I re-read the thread again. (yep, I read it 3 times)... I see Death and Quarto debating about how the Kilrathi WERE indeed engaged in a war of extermination, and that they did wipe out another race before (the hari). So people actually got to the OPPOSITE conclusion you cited!
Here:
DEATH said:
Quarto said:
3. Were the Kilrathi ever actually a threat to mankind, or the Confederation?
I'd say that a war of total elimination, as was mentioned in FA (during the private conversation between Baron Jugaka and Tolwyn, IIRC... don't have my copy handy at the moment, though, and we've already established my memory sucks ), would be a threat to mankind.

We already know the Kilrathi have no problems with completely obliterating an enemy so that nothing survives of the race, also thanks to FA, specifically the former Hari empire. As for spreading out after rendering Earth totally baren, remember that most of the fleet from before the false armistice was stood down. Had the Kilrathi succeeded, what was available to stand against the kats during the fighting retreat leading up to BoT would've been pretty much taken out of the picture. That's even ignoring the 7 other Hakagas that were coming online in the near future, which would've pretty much nailed down the Kilrathi ability to dust off humanity as a whole with the majority of the TCN fleet out of the picture.
Where did anyone agree that the Kats wouldn't exterminate us (even though they state that they would in a book)? I surely can't find it. I agree with all that Death said and most of what Quarto wrote.

Not to mention that the losing leg of WC3 proves the fact that unless kilrah is destroyed, Thrakath's fleet will smash Confed. Of course Confed cannot be 100% certain, but they surely have some pretty accurate data that points to that direction.

Another point: My first participation on this debate was disagreeing with Delance and agreeing with you on the reason why Tolwyn recalled Blair into service. I also disagree with Delances approach... He is argueing that Blair was ok and Seether was bad.... My point is that what CONFED ordered (no matter who actually dropped the bomb) was legitimate. I do agree that the Gen-bombing of Telamon (or FT-whatever) was wrong, no matter who dropped it.

Someone asked how could Blair be so sure about Confed's defeat being imminent... Well, Tolwyn actually says that much in the first Behemoth briefeing... and so does Paladin. Sure, he could maybe not trust them based on past experiences, but then he wasn't in a paranoid state. But that particular issue strays from my focus on the bigger picture.

Finally, my las post was actually two issues mixed: Confed was wrong (in the war against the Kilrathi) and Tolwyn was right (in the whole Project deal, after the war).
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Where did anyone agree that the Kats wouldn't exterminate us (even though they state that they would in a book)? I surely can't find it. I agree with all that Death said and most of what Quarto wrote.
It may be in this thread, it may be in the companion thread (which you also picked up at the same time Delance backed up)... but there's certainly a discussion of how the Empire is a slave society that can't reasonably wipe out the Confederation.

Not to mention that the losing leg of WC3 proves the fact that unless kilrah is destroyed, Thrakath's fleet will smash Confed. Of course Confed cannot be 100% certain, but they surely have some pretty accurate data that points o that direction.
... we already addressed this. Even Delance conceded this: a losing ending establishes nothing save possibly what would happen if Blair were *dead* (or captured). Blair's involvement has certainly turned around conventional campaigns in the past.

Another point: My first participation on this debate was disagreeing with Delance and agreeing with you on the reason why Tolwyn recalled Blair into service. I also disagree with Delances approach... He is argueing that Blair was ok and Seether was bad.... My point is that what CONFED ordered (no matter who actually dropped the bomb) was legitimate. I do agree that the Gen-bombing of Telamon (or FT-whatever) was wrong, no matter who dropped it.

Finally, my las post was actually two issues mixed: Confed was wrong (in the war against the Kilrathi) and Tolwyn was right (in the whole Project deal, after the war).
Once again, no one is arguing this. No one has *ever* argued this. We all kind of stare, mouthes agape when you Brazilians show up and act all weird about Wing Commander IV -- *no one thinks* Tolwyn was right to attack Telamon. *Ever*.
 

Speradon

Commodore
That's not a continued, sustained effort to commit cultural genocide after the destruction of Kilrah. And if Confed was bent on the systematic and deliberate genocide against the Kilrathi, why on the world would they allow them to keep Torgo after their *surrender*? Why give reparations to the same people you are on the process of committing genocide against?
Kilrah was destroyed and millions/billions of Kilrathi dead. The culture (even if only one specific clan's culture) was annihilated as soon as the T-Bomb left Blair's fighter. The genocide was accomplished at that point...Confed wouldn't need to "sustain" any more conflict against the Kilrathi. For all intents and purposes, they were no longer a threat to Confed ideals/human culture. Letting the few remanants have some planets wouldn't hurt since the war was over. Continuing to kill/murder Kilrathi for the sake of their being Kilrathi, especially after the war ends, probably wouldn't look so great in the public eye unless Confed's PR division put one hell of a spin on it.

The damage was already done.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Bandit LOAF said:
It may be in this thread, it may be in the companion thread (which you also picked up at the same time Delance backed up)... but there's certainly a discussion of how the Empire is a slave society that can't reasonably wipe out the Confederation.
There is a flaw in that discussion (wherever it is), though, because not only it is explicitly stated in the book that the Kats are aut to wipe us, but they also have the precedent of wiping nother civilization before.

Of course the Kilrathi Empire is a slave society... But it can be reasoned that enslaving the confederation might end up draining more resources than its worth.


Bandit LOAF said:
... we already addressed this. Even Delance conceded this: a losing ending establishes nothing save possibly what would happen if Blair were *dead* (or captured). Blair's involvement has certainly turned around conventional campaigns in the past.
What??? If you fail to rescue Severin (for example), but stay alive and uncaptured, you end up in proxima and Sol... And it is pretty clear that even Blair's presence is not enough to turn the tide (unlike WC1, for instance).

Also, even if we do disregard the losing path, we have no evidence that points otherwise. Only speculation(sp?). Nothing definite.

Of course such a desperate measure is not decided with 100% certainty. But there is a "good enough" level of "sureness" afforded by simulations, data anlysys... Every single military descision works that way.


Bandit LOAF said:
Once again, no one is arguing this. No one has *ever* argued this. We all kind of stare, mouthes agape when you Brazilians show up and act all weird about Wing Commander IV -- *no one thinks* Tolwyn was right to attack Telamon. *Ever*.
Ok, fine, no problem. Granted.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
There is a flaw in that discussion (wherever it is), though, because not only it is explicitly stated in the book that the Kats are aut to wipe us, but they also have the precedent of wiping nother civilization before.

Of course the Kilrathi Empire is a slave society... But it can be reasoned that enslaving the confederation might end up draining more resources than its worth.
I'm pretty sure we talked about all of this. You're welcome to reply to points where applicable.

What??? If you fail to rescue Severin (for example), but stay alive and uncaptured, you end up in proxima and Sol... And it is pretty clear that even Blair's presence is not enough to turn the tide (unlike WC1, for instance).
... and everything is fine until Blair is killed or captured.

Also, even if we do disregard the losing path, we have no evidence that points otherwise. Only speculation(sp?). Nothing definite.

Of course such a desperate measure is not decided with 100% certainty. But there is a "good enough" level of "sureness" afforded by simulations, data anlysys... Every single military descision works that way.
Exactly. Here's the rub: Delance based one of his generic "I hate Tolwyn" rants on the fact that you can't possibly know the losing outcome... because it was those same war-era studies upon which he based his plans in Wing Commander IV. Saying that the Confederation is justified in committing genocide to stop the Kilrathi in WC3 because they've projected what will happen is a tacit acknowledgement that Tolwyn is justified in committing genocide to stop the Nephilim in WCIV because he's projected what will happen -- and we know how you two feel about that topic.
 
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