Chris Roberts

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Bearcat, Jan 11, 2006.

  1. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    There you go using that incredibly narrow definition that Ed had. Both you Brazilians are terrible at trying to engage in semantics debates, and you do it so freakin often.
     
  2. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    You're not arguing that it isn't genocide, though, you're just trying to justify genocide. The part of your argument that connects what you're saying to anything else is incredibly poor -- that *you* don't like the word genocide regardless of what it means!

    Also, the basic argument itself is badly flawed: the Kilrathi culture *doesn't* require that they conquer a foe. The Mantu are proof of this. The Mantu won a conventional war with the Empire without needing to wipe out Kilrah itself (a war with, in fact, the same nar Kiranka dynasty).

    Also, minor point of fact, the Confederation did not return star systems: places that were originally Kilrathi-held like Tartarus and Loki remained in Confederation hands.

    You realize that Thrakhath is being *sarcastic*, right? "Such accidents are common in are family" is Thrakhath saying 'we both know that wasn't a accident'.
     
  3. Delance

    Delance Victory, you say?

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    It wasn't not genocide against the Kilrathi race. It was, perhaps, genocide against a single clan. There was no deliberate action to destroy the Kilrathi race and culture after it ceased to be a threat, but otherwise to preserve it. They didn't prevent Kilrathi from having clans, which were an important part of their culture. There was no cultural genocide, as argued in parts of this thread.

    Genocide is more than a single action, but systematic and deliberate action to destroy something. The objective of Confed was not to destroy the Kilrathi culure, but to make the Kilrathi stop killing people. Rather different.

    And yet blue dots became red dots on the map. Ghora Khar had confed citizens, but they were allowed to return to their brethren. A cultural genocide, as with Quatro’s example of aborigines on Australaia, would let not happen.

    I adressed the issue of the Mantu. Peace with the Kilrathi Empire was made considerably harder after their betrayal. The Kilrathi themselves made it unreasonable for Confed accept peace with the Empire.

    I was being sarcastic as well. But without the *. What I did mean, however, is that this kind of thing is indeed *common* on WC, even if it was not the case with me.
     
  4. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    I understand English isn't your best language, so read the English dictionary link I pasted. Destruction of Kilrathi culture isn't necessary to use the genocide term. Destruction of a political or nationalistic entity such as the Kiranka Clan or Kilrathi Empire qualifies just fine. There's no debate about this unless you ignore the clear factual information given to you.
     
  5. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    You're being absurd. In the game you love beyond all reason the Kilrathi are clearly presented as an analog for American Indians in the 19th century -- Melek is being shipped off to a Kilrathi reservation. Wing Commander IV is specifically trying to present the conceot of cultural genocide.

    You're assuming based on a map made twelve years after the end of the war. We have no idea what happened to Ghorah Khar or when it happened. We know, for instance, that the Empire was very interested in retaking Ghorah Khar... and that they launched a massive offensive in the last days of the war. At the same time, we know that lots of star systems *left* the Confederation after the war and were allowed to go... there's a million possibilities here.

    We don't even know the circumstances under which Ghorah Khar joined the Confederation in the first place -- it may very well have been a 'until the curren war is over' sort of treaty in the first place.

    ... and yet the Confederation *did* make peace with the Empire. Your argument makes no sense. We - and the Confederation! - know from historical evidence that the Kilrathi can be forced to surrender through conventional warfare.

    I have no idea what that means, then.
     
  6. Delance

    Delance Victory, you say?

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    Not exactly the same, there's a difference between a "regime change" and genocide. While the US is commonly (even if not correctly) accused of genocide for the use of atomic weapons, it's not the case with it's radical changed imposed to the Japanese Empire, which at least kept it’s name and Emperor, or the complete destruction of the "political or nationalistic" entities of the rest of the Axis, or at least its reorganization towards Allied principles, to the point of cutting Germany in half. None of that would qualify as genocide. I agree that the destruction of the Clan could be classified of genocide, but not the Empire as a political entity.

    That's not a good analogy, is Confed colonizing and occupying Kilrathi land, in other to have to ship them to reservations? Cultural Genocide would include destroying their clan structure to the very least, since it's one of their most basic things. It’s not something done on a single blow, it requires a more systematic and deliberate attempt to accomplish something. We see any evidence of a continued effort from Confed to destroy the Kilrathi culture?

    But all those possibilities must include the fact that the Kilrathi on Ghora Khar were once Confed citizens. Had they still wished to remain in the Confederation, what would've stopped them? We even see any evidence Confed is trying to make the Kilrathi less “kilrathi”? The other way around happens on WCIV, when a group supposedly tries to make mankind “more like the Kilrathi”, on a very different context.

    Of course it could, but such an arrangement would not reinforce the idea of a cultural genocide.

    Confederation destroyed the Kilrathi Empire, it ceased to exist after the war, and that was the only peace. Historical evidence recent on WC3, and even present on its opening cutscene, shows that peace with the Kilrathi was not much of an option at that moment.
     
  7. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    What the hell are you talking about? You're describing EXACTLY WHAT THE T-BOMB DID. It was a deliberate attempt to destroy their clan structure. The Confederation wiped out an entire clan of Kilrathi to break their Empire apart.

    Again, what the hell are you talking about? Kilrathi on Ghorah Khar were Confederation citizens at one point during the war... that's *all* we know. We have no idea what their status was at the end of the war.

    Were they still part of the Confederation when the war ended? Were they a system that left after the war? Were they forced out by the Confederation? By political necessity? By human racism? Was their departure something they determined in advance when The Council made its treaty with the Confederation?

    ... and all of that is completely nullified if it's simply one of the planets the Empire conquered and kept at the end of the war. I imagine the *humans* on Torgo weren't happy to be citizens of the Empire for four years because the Confederation wasn't willing to demand the system be returned after the surrender.


    And evidence that the Confederation is trying to make the Kilrathi less Kilrathi? Maybe the fact that we slaughtered billions of them in a deliberate attempt to destroy their entire culture... and then, in place of a political clan structure we created for them a puppet government based on human ideals? ... all the while looking the other way and pretending that what we'd done *wasn't* simply to inspire the surviving elements of their previous system to begin a bloody civil war?

    I don't see how - in light of Wing Commander IV - anyone can force a star system to remain part of the Confederation. We have no idea what's going on on Ghorah Khar.

    Concede the point unless you can counter it, Delance - do not play inane word games, you don't know that many words. The Kilrathi were defeated by the Mantu - *that* is history.
     
  8. Delance

    Delance Victory, you say?

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    Yeah, that's what they did, they destroyed the Empire and won the war. I was not talking about the actual bombing of Kilrah, which we all agree happened, but the lack of a post-war deliberate and systematical effort of Confed to commit genocide against the Kilrathi.

    I have no idea, I just said that if they were *still* part of Confed it would make for a much *stronger* case for cultural genocide. I never claimed to know what happened on Ghora Khar. That question reminds me of the WC2 intro.

    That's not a continued, sustained effort to commit cultural genocide after the destruction of Kilrah. And if Confed was bent on the systematic and deliberate genocide against the Kilrathi, why on the world would they allow them to keep Torgo after their *surrender*? Why give reparations to the same people you are on the process of committing genocide against?

    But isn't the Kilrathi culture one of constant conflict and war? Without the stabilizing power of the Emperor, wasn't the inherent risk on civil war a possibility well established inside Wing Commander? Isn’t that Kilrathi being Kilrathi, warriors above all, and not some politically correct pseudo-Confederation harmonic group? Wouldn’t it be interfering with their imposing Confederation cultural values?

    Nor does Thrakkath at the beginning of WC2.

    Of course they were. I had no intention to dispute that fact. Another historical fact of interest to Confed is the fact that Kilrathi pretended to make peace to betray them and almost destroyed Earth. Could Confed ever expect to beat them the way the Mantu did? Sure. In fact, they almost did. However that seemed more like a distant dream on WC3.
     
  9. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    If they were still part of the Confederation it would say nothing but that the population of Ghorah Khar chose to remain part of the Confederation. Ghorah Khar is not a conquest on the part of the Confederation, it is a group that joined of its own free will. Like Firekka, it can opt to stay or leave.

    Now, on the other hand, we know the Confederation *did* keep the Kilrathi systems it captured -- Kurasawa, Loki, Tartarus... those weren't Confederation colonies, they were Kilrathi systems forced into the Confederation. The fact that they're still part of the Confederation seems to indicate 'cultural genocide' (by your definition).

    Forcing the Kilrathi to give up their feudal system in favor of an elected assembly seems to be a continued, sustained effort -- not that either of those things are necessary for our definition.

    Why let them keep Torgo? Because they felt guilty about using the T-Bomb -- about committing genocide.

    The Confederation *did* impose it's values -- and completely ignored the results. Chancellor Melek indeed.

    I don't see what that has to do with this situation, so I'll take yet another opportunity to point out that his name is Thrakhath.

    I don't see what this has to do with your original claim, which was that it was impossible for the war to be won conventionally because the Kilrathi culture would not allow this. We - and the Confederation - know that this is not true and that, in fact, wars *had* been won against the Kilrathi conventionally.

    I fail to see how the Battle of Terra changes this in any way -- any more than thousands of other terrible things that happened in the war affected relations between the two sides. You're acting like both sides loved eachother up until 2668 somehow... which is crazy -- they're fighting a violent terrible war. I'm sure there was no love lost between the Kilrathi and the Mantu, either... but a tactical defeat forced an end to the war none the less.
     
  10. Delance

    Delance Victory, you say?

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    Yes, yes, shame on you for using my definitions against me. But do we know about what happens there or is it like Ghora Khar?

    Well, it was an assembly of *clans*, which are feudal entities. Regardless, it might simply be the victor imposing government changed on the defeated.

    But what about those poor people living in Torgo? Confed had a base there for crying out loud. Are those humans forksaken by Confed? Or just the planet?

    He did report something to his Hrai about Blair.

    I like to comment on random WC quotes. What better place than here? (rethorical question)

    Allright, let's put it under a different light. It was not impossible for Confed to win, but much much diffcult and probably less desirable. Of course it's a possibility on itself.

    Another different point is that the concept of a peace treaty with the Kilrathi, instead of their surrender, was probably no longer a well regarded option after their betrayal. That doesn't meant the can't be defeated on a conventional method, just like they can't be tursted to make peace *unless* they are. And that it does indeed have something to do with their culture, just look at Thrakhath (now with correct spelling) on the intro, mocking Angel about co-existence.
     
  11. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    I find it remarkable that someone who on more than a few occasions has complained about moral relativism would have the gall to argue that it wasn't genocide, because it was justified. That's exactly the kind of ugly relativism you should be complaining about, Delance. I don't really care whether the use of the T-Bomb was justified or not - the question has no impact whatsoever on how we describe the action. Similarly, if I burn down your house, it doesn't matter if I did so just for the fun of it, or because there was some horrible disease in your house that I could stop by burning it down - it may or may not have been justified, but either way, it's still arson.

    And yes, damn it, it was genocide - the action was a deliberate attempt to destroy everything the Kilrathi culture was based on. The fact that Confed allowed the Kilrathi to rebuild their culture in a more benign form doesn't change the fact that they first destroyed the malign form - and it makes no difference whatsoever whether, as Melek says, the Kilrathi had become slaves to their bloodlust. The fact remains that their culture was founded upon certain things, and the destruction of Kilrah completely destroyed the Kilrathi culture as we know it. Even those Kilrathi who did not submit to the new, Confed-approved culture, were affected.

    Finally, on the note of whether co-existence with the Kilrathi was possible or not. At the time when the Behemoth project was first initiated, Confed was actively aiding a Kilrathi planet that had rebelled from the Empire and joined the Confederation, proving beyond all doubts that co-existence with the Kilrathi was indeed absolutely possible. The "Kilrathi do not co-exist, so we must destroy Kilrah" theory can be sort of justified in 2668, after the battle of Terra... but if you consider the context in which the decision to build a planet-killer weapon was first made, it's clear that this theory was not the argument on which the decision was based.
     
  12. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    Angels quote about The kilrathi not coexisting can't really be taken out of context either. First, angel has been fighting a long war and watched many comrads die, including moments earlier when her covert cell was vaporized. She *hates* the Kilrathi. She see's them as an enemy that needs stopped at all cost... an enemy that is ruthless. I'm certaim she comes to accept Hobbes and the Gorah Khar rebels but as a whole a lingering hatred for kilrathi exists. Are japanese people horrible? I think not! But ask an allied World War II vet that served in the pacific. My wifes grandfather is a surgeon (retired now) that served in the pacific (British) and you really don't want to hear the words he has for all japanese. And this is stuff from 60 years ago yet somehow thats how he feels about *all* japanese.

    Second, Angel might also be correct in the sense that the Kilrathi will not co-exist in a manner that humans will find acceptable. Any concessions that the Kilrathi might demand could very well be unacceptable to confed. Slavery is a form of co-existence. So is conceding territory along with significant trade sanctions. Imagine that! Humans being sort-of free as long as they send X number of ore shipments to kilrah a week and dont arm themselves.

    Either way, the particular quote can not be forced to be the end all of whether or not The kilrathi will demand the death of all humans as the only way to end the conflict.

    But there is still the possibility that should the conflict go on to its end, its possible the war could end in confeds favor, and then what of those built up hatreds for the kilrathi? Cobra wasn't the only one who hated the cats. Could it be that the only real thing standing between coexisting with the kilrathi is that we just don't want to?

    What happened to japan after the war? There were a lot of key cultural differences and indeed there still are, but I think the co-existing part is getting along just fine despite what any old war vet may feel about the people.
     
  13. Edfilho

    Edfilho Cry some more!

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    So what is the conclusion here? That Confed was wrong and that Tolwyn was right? is that the agenda behind this "debate"? This is a big display of revisionism...
     
  14. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    I don't see any question - they were planets settled by the Kilrathi that were kept by the Confederation.


    The Kilrathi took Torgo in the last few days of the war -- I doubt that base still exists.

    Hrai is Kilrathi for family, it's distinct from a Thrak'hra clan. Ralgha was Ralgha nar Hhallas (same noble clan as Bhuk nar Hhallas, Gharal nar Hhallas and Kukubono nar Hhallas), but he was the only surviving member of his hrai.

    ... but that's exactly what they continued to pursue and eventually got: a peace treaty with the Kilrathi. You're arguing for genocide on a much wider scale. (And again, I fail to see what the False Peace has to do with anything or why it would sour 'relations' with the Kilrathi any more tha 35 years of terrible war already did.)

    And really... not impossible but much more difficult? What a horrible, horrible, horrible excuse to do anything - much less kill billions of people.
     
  15. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    What the hell are you talking about? This has nothing to do with Tolwyn - he had his own plan to destroy Kilrah.
     
  16. Edfilho

    Edfilho Cry some more!

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    Ok, I re-read the thread again. (yep, I read it 3 times)... I see Death and Quarto debating about how the Kilrathi WERE indeed engaged in a war of extermination, and that they did wipe out another race before (the hari). So people actually got to the OPPOSITE conclusion you cited!
    Here:
    Where did anyone agree that the Kats wouldn't exterminate us (even though they state that they would in a book)? I surely can't find it. I agree with all that Death said and most of what Quarto wrote.

    Not to mention that the losing leg of WC3 proves the fact that unless kilrah is destroyed, Thrakath's fleet will smash Confed. Of course Confed cannot be 100% certain, but they surely have some pretty accurate data that points to that direction.

    Another point: My first participation on this debate was disagreeing with Delance and agreeing with you on the reason why Tolwyn recalled Blair into service. I also disagree with Delances approach... He is argueing that Blair was ok and Seether was bad.... My point is that what CONFED ordered (no matter who actually dropped the bomb) was legitimate. I do agree that the Gen-bombing of Telamon (or FT-whatever) was wrong, no matter who dropped it.

    Someone asked how could Blair be so sure about Confed's defeat being imminent... Well, Tolwyn actually says that much in the first Behemoth briefeing... and so does Paladin. Sure, he could maybe not trust them based on past experiences, but then he wasn't in a paranoid state. But that particular issue strays from my focus on the bigger picture.

    Finally, my las post was actually two issues mixed: Confed was wrong (in the war against the Kilrathi) and Tolwyn was right (in the whole Project deal, after the war).
     
  17. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    It may be in this thread, it may be in the companion thread (which you also picked up at the same time Delance backed up)... but there's certainly a discussion of how the Empire is a slave society that can't reasonably wipe out the Confederation.

    ... we already addressed this. Even Delance conceded this: a losing ending establishes nothing save possibly what would happen if Blair were *dead* (or captured). Blair's involvement has certainly turned around conventional campaigns in the past.

    Once again, no one is arguing this. No one has *ever* argued this. We all kind of stare, mouthes agape when you Brazilians show up and act all weird about Wing Commander IV -- *no one thinks* Tolwyn was right to attack Telamon. *Ever*.
     
  18. Speradon

    Speradon Commodore

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    Kilrah was destroyed and millions/billions of Kilrathi dead. The culture (even if only one specific clan's culture) was annihilated as soon as the T-Bomb left Blair's fighter. The genocide was accomplished at that point...Confed wouldn't need to "sustain" any more conflict against the Kilrathi. For all intents and purposes, they were no longer a threat to Confed ideals/human culture. Letting the few remanants have some planets wouldn't hurt since the war was over. Continuing to kill/murder Kilrathi for the sake of their being Kilrathi, especially after the war ends, probably wouldn't look so great in the public eye unless Confed's PR division put one hell of a spin on it.

    The damage was already done.
     
  19. Edfilho

    Edfilho Cry some more!

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    There is a flaw in that discussion (wherever it is), though, because not only it is explicitly stated in the book that the Kats are aut to wipe us, but they also have the precedent of wiping nother civilization before.

    Of course the Kilrathi Empire is a slave society... But it can be reasoned that enslaving the confederation might end up draining more resources than its worth.


    What??? If you fail to rescue Severin (for example), but stay alive and uncaptured, you end up in proxima and Sol... And it is pretty clear that even Blair's presence is not enough to turn the tide (unlike WC1, for instance).

    Also, even if we do disregard the losing path, we have no evidence that points otherwise. Only speculation(sp?). Nothing definite.

    Of course such a desperate measure is not decided with 100% certainty. But there is a "good enough" level of "sureness" afforded by simulations, data anlysys... Every single military descision works that way.


    Ok, fine, no problem. Granted.
     
  20. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    I'm pretty sure we talked about all of this. You're welcome to reply to points where applicable.

    ... and everything is fine until Blair is killed or captured.

    Exactly. Here's the rub: Delance based one of his generic "I hate Tolwyn" rants on the fact that you can't possibly know the losing outcome... because it was those same war-era studies upon which he based his plans in Wing Commander IV. Saying that the Confederation is justified in committing genocide to stop the Kilrathi in WC3 because they've projected what will happen is a tacit acknowledgement that Tolwyn is justified in committing genocide to stop the Nephilim in WCIV because he's projected what will happen -- and we know how you two feel about that topic.
     

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