Capships should never be destroyed...
- Thread starter sninja387
- Start date
gimme that ship i stole it first!
but it was mine in the first place! give it me!
tug of war for a ship that prolly isn't that good? besides with all of ur enemy crawling on ur own ship that u know really well, u might as well blow them out of teh the sky (?) / space and hope that none of ur classified info if any has been transmitted
but it was mine in the first place! give it me!
tug of war for a ship that prolly isn't that good? besides with all of ur enemy crawling on ur own ship that u know really well, u might as well blow them out of teh the sky (?) / space and hope that none of ur classified info if any has been transmitted
RE: Capships should never be destroyed
I agree that capships should be captured as much as possible. When a capship is captured, it makes the commander that previously was in charge of it look stupid, humiliated, reckless and perhaps traitorous.
Let's say that during the Battle for Earth, the ConFederation had captured the 5 Kilrathi SuperCarriers instead of blowing them up. The Security Chief Officer had stated that there was 50 security guards on the ship (not counting Thrakhath's personal security squad whom we'll assume there were probably like 10 guards). 60 guards isn't that much. Considering that each Marine shuttle had like 100 troopers per shuttle, I'd say the odds were in favor of the attackers since they managed to get control in boarding the ship.
It would've been totally humiliating for Thrakhath's flaship to be captured by the ConFed Marines and for Thrakhath to be tied up by ConFed Marines in an esacpe pod and jettisoned into space.
Remember, the SuperCarriers were constructed at shipyards that required Kilrathi transports to be diverted away to them from the ConFed/Kilrathi actions. This caused many setbacks for the Kilrathi and made many Kilrathi a little less supportive of Thrakhath and the Emperor. Had the 5 SuperCarriers been captured instead of destroyed, those many Kilrathi probably would've felt like they were fighting only to be destroyed so the Emperor's family would've had less competition. This might've caused those many Kilrathi to desert Thrakhath, leave him and his fleet at the mercy of ConFed, and possibly even rebel against Thrakhath. Remember, in Action Stations novel, the Emperor hesitates to allow the Home Fleet (his personal Fleet) to engage on the attack of McAulliffe.
It would've been better to have used the cargo ships to totally screen the Marine boarding shuttles as they approached the Kilrathi SuperCarriers.
I agree that capships should be captured as much as possible. When a capship is captured, it makes the commander that previously was in charge of it look stupid, humiliated, reckless and perhaps traitorous.
Let's say that during the Battle for Earth, the ConFederation had captured the 5 Kilrathi SuperCarriers instead of blowing them up. The Security Chief Officer had stated that there was 50 security guards on the ship (not counting Thrakhath's personal security squad whom we'll assume there were probably like 10 guards). 60 guards isn't that much. Considering that each Marine shuttle had like 100 troopers per shuttle, I'd say the odds were in favor of the attackers since they managed to get control in boarding the ship.
It would've been totally humiliating for Thrakhath's flaship to be captured by the ConFed Marines and for Thrakhath to be tied up by ConFed Marines in an esacpe pod and jettisoned into space.
Remember, the SuperCarriers were constructed at shipyards that required Kilrathi transports to be diverted away to them from the ConFed/Kilrathi actions. This caused many setbacks for the Kilrathi and made many Kilrathi a little less supportive of Thrakhath and the Emperor. Had the 5 SuperCarriers been captured instead of destroyed, those many Kilrathi probably would've felt like they were fighting only to be destroyed so the Emperor's family would've had less competition. This might've caused those many Kilrathi to desert Thrakhath, leave him and his fleet at the mercy of ConFed, and possibly even rebel against Thrakhath. Remember, in Action Stations novel, the Emperor hesitates to allow the Home Fleet (his personal Fleet) to engage on the attack of McAulliffe.
It would've been better to have used the cargo ships to totally screen the Marine boarding shuttles as they approached the Kilrathi SuperCarriers.
Refraining from desroying capships
And another thing: In WC IV, anytime I could pilot a fighter to leech a foe, I did. I leeched any fighter that could've been leeched. I wanted to capture as many fighters and capships in the game as I could. I do think that leeching in the WC IV is too easy. The leech should only work if the shields are down (accomplished by energy weapons fire). Then, the leech impacts with the ship and destroys power circuits by shorting them out and that's if the leech shots hit the power circuits and there was no super insulating material protecting them. The idea would be to batter down the shields, then repeatedly shoot leech shots at the fighter (about 30 leech shots) before it shoots you down. Note that hopefully these leech shots would hit to disable weapons and engine (rather than destroying them) Against capital ships, it should take about 60 leech shots for every capship gun there is. Then, there's additional leech shots for propulsion and also communications if you don't want the ship sending out an SOS.
And another thing: In WC IV, anytime I could pilot a fighter to leech a foe, I did. I leeched any fighter that could've been leeched. I wanted to capture as many fighters and capships in the game as I could. I do think that leeching in the WC IV is too easy. The leech should only work if the shields are down (accomplished by energy weapons fire). Then, the leech impacts with the ship and destroys power circuits by shorting them out and that's if the leech shots hit the power circuits and there was no super insulating material protecting them. The idea would be to batter down the shields, then repeatedly shoot leech shots at the fighter (about 30 leech shots) before it shoots you down. Note that hopefully these leech shots would hit to disable weapons and engine (rather than destroying them) Against capital ships, it should take about 60 leech shots for every capship gun there is. Then, there's additional leech shots for propulsion and also communications if you don't want the ship sending out an SOS.
Chip: I think you're missing the point of the last couple of threads. It would be extraordinarily difficult to capture capital ships. And those Hakaga supercarriers even more so. Exactly how would the marines get past those carriers' fighters, escorts and point defences? Don't you think the Kilrathi would self destruct the ships before they could be captured?
Capturing capships is more like opportunism, only if the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise you have to mount a dedicated operation & simply put, too many things could go wrong to justify capturing anything with a crew of more than 1 pilot.
Capturing capships is more like opportunism, only if the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise you have to mount a dedicated operation & simply put, too many things could go wrong to justify capturing anything with a crew of more than 1 pilot.
Re; To Penguin
Penguin: And those Hakaga supercarriers even more so. Exactly how would the marines get past those carriers' fighters, escorts and point defences? Don't you think the Kilrathi would self destruct the ships before they could be captured?
CB: Simple, with luck and fighter escorts, like the luck and fighter escorts Duke had when he got past the fighters and defenses and escorts. Keeping ships in formation to protect Hakagas prevents those ships from effectively going into a Claw formation to more effectively attack ConFed ships -- this buys ConFed more time to use weapons fire on the smaller ships to reduce their ability to spread out their attack (like the way the Kilrathi did with their cruiser squadron that went past the action to bomb Earth). Thrak was so bull-headed, it was doubtful he would've let any Hakaga ship be self-destructed -- he would've just ordered Imperial Guards to destroy the boarding Marines. The ideal plan for Duke would've been to have boarded the Hakagas and only destroyed their engines and/or launch bays thus leaving the Hakagas stopped and vulnerable for capture/destruction later on.
Penguin: Capturing capships is more like opportunism, only if the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise you have to mount a dedicated operation & simply put, too many things could go wrong to justify capturing anything with a crew of more than 1 pilot.
CB: During the Battle for Earth, too many things did go wrong. Each Marine shuttle had 100 Marines. 100 Marines against 60 guards should be more than adequate. I think it was like 3 to 5 shuttles that tried to capture a Hakaga anyways. So that's like 300 to 500 Marines per 60 guards.
Penguin: And those Hakaga supercarriers even more so. Exactly how would the marines get past those carriers' fighters, escorts and point defences? Don't you think the Kilrathi would self destruct the ships before they could be captured?
CB: Simple, with luck and fighter escorts, like the luck and fighter escorts Duke had when he got past the fighters and defenses and escorts. Keeping ships in formation to protect Hakagas prevents those ships from effectively going into a Claw formation to more effectively attack ConFed ships -- this buys ConFed more time to use weapons fire on the smaller ships to reduce their ability to spread out their attack (like the way the Kilrathi did with their cruiser squadron that went past the action to bomb Earth). Thrak was so bull-headed, it was doubtful he would've let any Hakaga ship be self-destructed -- he would've just ordered Imperial Guards to destroy the boarding Marines. The ideal plan for Duke would've been to have boarded the Hakagas and only destroyed their engines and/or launch bays thus leaving the Hakagas stopped and vulnerable for capture/destruction later on.
Penguin: Capturing capships is more like opportunism, only if the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise you have to mount a dedicated operation & simply put, too many things could go wrong to justify capturing anything with a crew of more than 1 pilot.
CB: During the Battle for Earth, too many things did go wrong. Each Marine shuttle had 100 Marines. 100 Marines against 60 guards should be more than adequate. I think it was like 3 to 5 shuttles that tried to capture a Hakaga anyways. So that's like 300 to 500 Marines per 60 guards.
Re: Re; To Penguin
Aren't you forgeting about the thousands of suicidal private ships...?
No, it was just one shuttle per ship. Second, every one of the Hakagas had couple thousand Kilrathi onboard, even if they're not all trained marines, every Kil knows how to use his claws. You're marines would get slaughterd unless you sent couple dozen shuttles.
TC
SubCrid
Re: Re: Re; To Penguin
And the fact that Thrak felt his carriers were invincible? And that no sane man would attempt the maneuver that Duke tried and therefore one probably would not plan for it?
It wasn't just one shuttle per ship. The shuttles each picked their own targets and went for what they thought they could get to. We know that Thrak's flagship had two marine LCs land (somewhat) successfully on it. We have absolutely no idea how many LCs landed on the other ships, except that there was obviously one. Also, claws really aren't much of a defense against rifles, mini-guns and grenades.
TC
And the fact that Thrak felt his carriers were invincible? And that no sane man would attempt the maneuver that Duke tried and therefore one probably would not plan for it?
It wasn't just one shuttle per ship. The shuttles each picked their own targets and went for what they thought they could get to. We know that Thrak's flagship had two marine LCs land (somewhat) successfully on it. We have absolutely no idea how many LCs landed on the other ships, except that there was obviously one. Also, claws really aren't much of a defense against rifles, mini-guns and grenades.
TC
TC
SubCrid
That's rather stupid... hand out the guns *after* you're being boarded??? There's no way in hell you could arm a couple thousand Cats quick enough for them to do any good. Anyways, you normally don't want flight technicians, navigators and other people running around playing marine. In their blood-lust they'd probably shoot another Kilrathi.
TC
TC
Of course you wouldn't give out a gun to every cat on board...
But you can't very well leave your crews without and weapons.
***In their blood-lust they'd probably shoot another Kilrathi. ***
They can kill each other fast enough without any weapons. But I think you'd rather have some of your crew shot each other, instead of them being slaughtered by a boarding enemy.
But you can't very well leave your crews without and weapons.
***In their blood-lust they'd probably shoot another Kilrathi. ***
They can kill each other fast enough without any weapons. But I think you'd rather have some of your crew shot each other, instead of them being slaughtered by a boarding enemy.
Capturing a full strength carrier is too difficult. From what I understand the idea behind the raids on the Hakagas was for the marines to place mines onboard the ships to blow them up. The gravity of the situation meant that they didn't have much choice.
Anyways in a normal situation trying to capture a carrier is simply too difficult because its the most important ship in anyone's arsenal. The only way this could *possibly* be achieved is in the case of WC4 Princeton, where we have a damaged carrier without escorts or other significant defense and a skeleton crew. As this doesn't usually happen it lends credence to my theory that capturing capships means that you have to be an opportunist. You can take any chance that presents itself but you can't very well make that chance yourself without tons of preparation.
As an example try this: Cold War goes hot (assume no nukes). Soviets try to capture any given US carrier. Given that each carrier is heavily protected, has a crew of 6000 and that all damaged carriers would be towed back to the US, their chances are realistically non-existent. Furthermore if they did capture one, what would they do with it?
Anyways in a normal situation trying to capture a carrier is simply too difficult because its the most important ship in anyone's arsenal. The only way this could *possibly* be achieved is in the case of WC4 Princeton, where we have a damaged carrier without escorts or other significant defense and a skeleton crew. As this doesn't usually happen it lends credence to my theory that capturing capships means that you have to be an opportunist. You can take any chance that presents itself but you can't very well make that chance yourself without tons of preparation.
As an example try this: Cold War goes hot (assume no nukes). Soviets try to capture any given US carrier. Given that each carrier is heavily protected, has a crew of 6000 and that all damaged carriers would be towed back to the US, their chances are realistically non-existent. Furthermore if they did capture one, what would they do with it?
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Regarding the Hakagas, I for one would love to know why Chip thinks there are only 50-60 guards per ship. Didn't Fleet Action mention Terran Marines getting slaughtered all over the place? They only barely completed their missions, and they weren't even trying to take over the ship - just penetrate far enough into the ship. This (as well as simple common sense) tells us that each Hakaga has many, many more Kilrathi Marines than Chip would like to believe.
RE: to some messages below
If you're just one marine, surrouned by a hundred cats, one of them will get you eventually. Besides, if a ship is boarded, weapons should be given out to the crew, so claws wouldn't be the only thing..
CB: You've never seen me shoot before -- when they see 50 of their buddies getting shot to bits, they'll turn and run and I'll be the one getting them eventually.
Regarding the Hakagas, I for one would love to know why Chip thinks there are only 50-60 guards per ship. Didn't Fleet Action mention Terran Marines getting slaughtered all over the place? They only barely completed their missions, and they weren't even trying to take over the ship - just penetrate far enough into the ship. This (as well as simple common sense) tells us that each Hakaga has many, many more Kilrathi Marines than Chip would like to believe.
CB: In Fleet Action it states how "there's a security detachment of 50, my lord, not counting your own security squad". I think the reason why they could barely complete their missions was because they fought alot of hand to hand combat. Personally, I think all Marine LCs should've converged on Thrakhath's flagship using the civillian craft to shroud them.
And here's what I don't understand is why the Marines don't use power armor exoskeleton suits. I guess ConFed decided it was more economical to save those engine parts, weapons, and armor pieces for more fighters.
If you're just one marine, surrouned by a hundred cats, one of them will get you eventually. Besides, if a ship is boarded, weapons should be given out to the crew, so claws wouldn't be the only thing..
CB: You've never seen me shoot before -- when they see 50 of their buddies getting shot to bits, they'll turn and run and I'll be the one getting them eventually.
Regarding the Hakagas, I for one would love to know why Chip thinks there are only 50-60 guards per ship. Didn't Fleet Action mention Terran Marines getting slaughtered all over the place? They only barely completed their missions, and they weren't even trying to take over the ship - just penetrate far enough into the ship. This (as well as simple common sense) tells us that each Hakaga has many, many more Kilrathi Marines than Chip would like to believe.
CB: In Fleet Action it states how "there's a security detachment of 50, my lord, not counting your own security squad". I think the reason why they could barely complete their missions was because they fought alot of hand to hand combat. Personally, I think all Marine LCs should've converged on Thrakhath's flagship using the civillian craft to shroud them.
And here's what I don't understand is why the Marines don't use power armor exoskeleton suits. I guess ConFed decided it was more economical to save those engine parts, weapons, and armor pieces for more fighters.
Chip: "CB: You've never seen me shoot before -- when they see 50 of their buddies getting shot to bits, they'll turn and run and I'll be the one getting them eventually."
So what you're saying is you are Rambo. You're going to single handedly board the pride of the Kilrathi navy and shoot several thousand Kilrathi solo.
Please. This isn't Doom. The marines don't have super weapons or powerups. Unless you land a literal army you're not going to capture a capship of any significant size.
As for Thrak, considering the danger of assassination that all Kilrathi leaders faced, he's liable to have had a very large security force. It may even explain why the Hakaga has *only* 50 guards.
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1.
So what you're saying is you are Rambo. You're going to single handedly board the pride of the Kilrathi navy and shoot several thousand Kilrathi solo.
Please. This isn't Doom. The marines don't have super weapons or powerups. Unless you land a literal army you're not going to capture a capship of any significant size.
As for Thrak, considering the danger of assassination that all Kilrathi leaders faced, he's liable to have had a very large security force. It may even explain why the Hakaga has *only* 50 guards.
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1.
Re: RE: to some messages below
[Edited by Earthworm on 12-22-2000 at 12:50]
Aren't we confident...
Uh, no...
What would be the point? Take out Thrak, and you'll still have 4 other Hakagas left. Beside, Thrak jumped straight into his fighter when the marines got on his ship.
Can you say, just because some other sci-fi or whatever universe has *Power armor exoskeleton suits*, doesn't mean WC has them?
[Edited by Earthworm on 12-22-2000 at 12:50]
RE: to messages below
Chip: "CB: You've never seen me shoot before -- when they see 50 of their buddies getting shot to bits, they'll turn and run and I'll be the one getting them eventually."
So what you're saying is you are Rambo. You're going to single handedly board the pride of the Kilrathi navy and shoot several thousand Kilrathi solo.
Please. This isn't Doom. The marines don't have super weapons or powerups. Unless you land a literal army you're not going to capture a capship of any significant size.
CB: I know this isn't Doom, but the Marines should have alot of MGs and/or exoskeletons along with smoke bombs for concealment. And there should have been ALOT MORE ConFed Marines in the Battle for Earth. And I had thought about landing a literal army onto the Flagship.
As for Thrak, considering the danger of assassination that all Kilrathi leaders faced, he's liable to have had a very large security force. It may even explain why the Hakaga has *only* 50 guards.
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1.
CB: Fear of assassination in that period of time appeared to be minimal. The Kilrathi never seemed to have known the act of assassination until the tried & failed assassination attack on the Emperor was done. Thrak was on his flagship and was so bull-headed, you'd think he'd feel totally safe in it. He probably thought that ConFed would not have sent up Marine and civillian ships as an attack to board his ships until it was too late.
What would be the point? Take out Thrak, and you'll still have 4 other Hakagas left. Beside, Thrak jumped straight into his fighter when the marines got on his ship.
CB: Thrak had only abandoned his Flagship because he knew his Flagship was going to explode. If you take out Thrak, you take out the leader of the offensive and really mess up the Kilrathi leadership for the Kilrathi.
Chip: "CB: You've never seen me shoot before -- when they see 50 of their buddies getting shot to bits, they'll turn and run and I'll be the one getting them eventually."
So what you're saying is you are Rambo. You're going to single handedly board the pride of the Kilrathi navy and shoot several thousand Kilrathi solo.
Please. This isn't Doom. The marines don't have super weapons or powerups. Unless you land a literal army you're not going to capture a capship of any significant size.
CB: I know this isn't Doom, but the Marines should have alot of MGs and/or exoskeletons along with smoke bombs for concealment. And there should have been ALOT MORE ConFed Marines in the Battle for Earth. And I had thought about landing a literal army onto the Flagship.
As for Thrak, considering the danger of assassination that all Kilrathi leaders faced, he's liable to have had a very large security force. It may even explain why the Hakaga has *only* 50 guards.
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1.
CB: Fear of assassination in that period of time appeared to be minimal. The Kilrathi never seemed to have known the act of assassination until the tried & failed assassination attack on the Emperor was done. Thrak was on his flagship and was so bull-headed, you'd think he'd feel totally safe in it. He probably thought that ConFed would not have sent up Marine and civillian ships as an attack to board his ships until it was too late.
What would be the point? Take out Thrak, and you'll still have 4 other Hakagas left. Beside, Thrak jumped straight into his fighter when the marines got on his ship.
CB: Thrak had only abandoned his Flagship because he knew his Flagship was going to explode. If you take out Thrak, you take out the leader of the offensive and really mess up the Kilrathi leadership for the Kilrathi.
Re: RE: to messages below
What the hell are MGs, and where have you seen any exoskeletons in WC?
Yeah, lets send in more marines into a space fight...
Exactly, and that atempted assassination came before BoT, so there were plenty of reasons for Thrak to be woried if he wasn't safe in the heart of the Empire.
Thrak escaped because he was a freaking coward, and that's the point. You can't take out Thrak because he'll escape anyway. But lets say that he does get killed because Confed commited most of it's forces against Thraks flagship. And then what? The cats are in disaray, but still have 3 or 4 Hakagas that are ready to strike and give the final blow.