Capships should never be destroyed...

[Chip]

RE: To Earthworm's message

What the hell are MGs, and where have you seen any exoskeletons in WC?

CB: I was referring to machine guns or rather, SMGs -- submachine guns

Yeah, lets send in more marines into a space fight...

CB: Exactly, so they don't get slaughtered by ships bombarding Earth

Exactly, and that atempted assassination came before BoT, so there were plenty of reasons for Thrak to be woried if he wasn't safe in the heart of the Empire.

CB: But Thrak thought his SuperCarrier would protect him, so he would not have been worried.

Thrak escaped because he was a freaking coward, and that's the point. You can't take out Thrak because he'll escape anyway. But lets say that he does get killed because Confed commited most of it's forces against Thraks flagship. And then what? The cats are in disaray, but still have 3 or 4 Hakagas that are ready to strike and give the final blow.

CB: I could take out Thrak if I could secure the launch bays. And those 3 to 4 Hakagas aren't enough to worry about since the officers weren't competent and relied more on Thrak's orders than themselves.

 

[Earthworm]

Re: RE: To Earthworm's message

Originally posted by Chip
Exactly, so they don't get slaughtered by ships bombarding Earth

Yeah, lets just get them slaughtered in space...

But Thrak thought his SuperCarrier would protect him, so he would not have been worried.

If he's not safe on the Emperor's personal cruiser, while in Kilrah, than how can he be safe on a carrier with thousands of Kilrathi.

I could take out Thrak if I could secure the launch bays.

Sure you could. And you could destroy Kilrah by fireing an IR missile from your magical flying teapot...

And those 3 to 4 Hakagas aren't enough to worry about since the officers weren't competent and relied more on Thrak's orders than themselves.

Yes, Thrak is the only competent officer in the Kilrathi fleet, while all other ship captains are stupid chimps... and the CO's of the hundreds of escorts around the Hakagas are too stupid as well.

 

[Wedge009]

Another intense argument, I haven't bothered to read everything, but I have the impression that the BoT was such a surprise that the primary objective was simply survival and the successful defence of Earth. So this would mean neutralising those carriers as fast as possible, ie blowing them up rather than attempting to capture them. Whether capturing them was feasible or not.

 

[Earthworm]

Oh, it wasn't a surprise. Confed knew the cats were coming for about a month, and they knew that Kilrathi would have about half a dozen new super carriers.

The fact is that Confed was terribly outguned and outnumbered by the cats, and the only reason why Confed survived was Tolwyns brilian defense.

 

[Wedge009]

OK, but my point still stands about survival. Hmm, the BoT is starting to seem like a replay of the losing endgame of WC3.

 

[Quarto]

Just two things to say.

Chip: The Kilrathi didn't see a single act of assassination before the attempt on the Emperor? What the hell? So what was Khasra trying to do? Oh, wait, let me guess. He was really just wanted to scratch the Prince's back. It was all a big misunderstanding.

Secondly, the death of Prince Thrakhath would completely annihilate any chances of victory... for the humans. Haven't you noticed that, time after time, we were saved by his incompetence?

 

[TC]

Originally posted by Penguin
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1. [/B]

"The rest of the ship tumbling down from the shock of the explosion. The rest of the ship appeared to hold together for a brief instant and then fractured open, the engine cells igniting, the firebal racing outward. Another flash detonated to his right followed by half a dozen more. He guessed that two of them were cruisers; the others, he wasn't sure of." - Page 280, FA

"He could still pull back, his one remaining older carrier covering him, repair the damage sustained on his two surviving heavy carriers." - Page 291, FA

"Hell, three of their super carriers blown apart, more than half their best pilots gone, forty other ships crippled." - Page 294, FA

"Don't forget that the Kilrathi had a minimum of nineteen other standard carriers and at least twenty heavy cruisers that carried thirty fighters each." - Page 206, FC

It's clear from this that more than the 3 Hakagas were killed by the marines attack. The Marines landed on everything from Destroyers, to Cruisers, to Carriers (I can find a quote for that too...) They destroyed whatever they could.

Obviously 18 Carriers weren't killed by them alone. The 19 was confed intel, so it probably wasn't exactly that, and there were other methods of killing standard Carriers (we know one was killed in Sirius).

Originally posted by Chip
Ordering everyone to converge on Thrak's ship is crazy. The idea was to waste as many as possible. To my knowledge they got 3 and that's a whole lot better than 1. [/B]

"The mere fact that signal traffic was nonexistent showed just how well planned the operation was. In the ordinary sphere of war, it was impossible to maintain operations for long without a steady flow of information" - Page 225, FA

Obviously, any long range attack that can continue without communications would be able to figure out 'destroy Earth' even if Thrak was killed. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you should shoot at the Terrans and bomb Earth. If there were still many Hakaga left, that's all it would be because the Kilrathi would easily overwhelm any Terran resistance. You don't need stratagy when you have guns that are that much bigger.

TC

[Edited by TC on 12-23-2000 at 02:13]

 

[Chip]

Secondly, the death of Prince Thrakhath would completely annihilate any chances of victory... for the humans. Haven't you noticed that, time after time, we were saved by his incompetence?

CB: I noticed that Thrak was responsible for the bombardment attempt on Earth when the Emeperor told him to save the planet for the next Sivar. Jukaga did not want the planet to be destroyed. Had Thrak been taken out, Jukaga might have countermanded Thrak's order in accordance w/ the Emperor. I also noticed that time after time, we were nearly defeated since the Kilrathi were lead by Thrak's coherence.

Thrak is the only competent officer in the Kilrathi fleet, while all other ship captains are stupid chimps... and the CO's of the hundreds of escorts around the Hakagas are too stupid as well.

CB: They are actually quite stupid since many of them lost their ships to the boarding Marines.

Yeah, lets just get them slaughtered in space...

CB: They'd have more of a chance surviving space action than they would sitting on Earth when Thrak wanted to blow it up.

If he's not safe on the Emperor's personal cruiser, while in Kilrah, than how can he be safe on a carrier with thousands of Kilrathi.

CB: Thrak did feel safe on his SuperCarrier because he knew that his Clan was on it. Jukaga was just there to inform Thrak of how the humans behaved and to call for their surrender since the humans knew Jukaga better than other Kilrathi.

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Chip
I noticed that Thrak was responsible for the bombardment attempt on Earth when the Emeperor told him to save the planet for the next Sivar. Jukaga did not want the planet to be destroyed. Had Thrak been taken out, Jukaga might have countermanded Thrak's order in accordance w/ the Emperor.

Jukaga had no say in this case. Thrak and the Emperor wanted him dead.

I also noticed that time after time, we were nearly defeated since the Kilrathi were lead by Thrak's coherence.

And if Thrak had waited a little longer, untill few more Hakagas were finished he would have been victorious. If Thraks father had comitted his whole force to taking out the fleet at McAuliffe instead of spreading appart to attack some other systems the Confederation would be dead hours after the war started.

So in conclusion, the whole damn family of our Prince Thrak was stupid and deserved to die for crimes commited against the Kilrathi Empire.

They are actually quite stupid since many of them lost their ships to the boarding Marines.

Complete bull crap, they would have to be crazy to expect someone to try and board them. Besides, Thrak was giving the orders.

They'd have more of a chance surviving space action than they would sitting on Earth when Thrak wanted to blow it up.

Few of Earths key cities got wasted, while most of the marine forces were destroyed....

They are marines, they fight on planets, space stations, and sometime capships, but they do not go to a space fight where there's nothign they could acomplish.

Thrak did feel safe on his SuperCarrier because he knew that his Clan was on it.

And who else was on the Emperors cruiser if not the most trusted people from his clane? Your point is stupid.

Jukaga was just there to inform Thrak of how the humans behaved and to call for their surrender since the humans knew Jukaga better than other Kilrathi.

That's just the official line.... Jukaga was there because Thrak and the Emperor hoped that an "accident" might happen to him during the fighitng.

 

[Chip]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are actually quite stupid since many of them lost their ships to the boarding Marines.
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Complete bull crap, they would have to be crazy to expect someone to try and board them. Besides, Thrak was giving the orders.

CB: They'd have to think crazy alright. But they didn't think crazy that Marines would attempt boardings because they thought lame. Only one captain is credited to have repelled boarders before they arrived, so it implies that the other captains were lame since they just followed Thrak's orders.


Few of Earths key cities got wasted, while most of the marine forces were destroyed....

They are marines, they fight on planets, space stations, and sometime capships, but they do not go to a space fight where there's nothign they could acomplish.

CB: The Marines accomplished alot. Had more Marines been out there, they probably would've accomplished even more. You and I really should play each other a space RTS game sometime like Homeworld.


And who else was on the Emperors cruiser if not the most trusted people from his clane? Your point is stupid.

CB: For the most part, probably no one else was on Thrak's SuperCarrier.


That's just the official line.... Jukaga was there because Thrak and the Emperor hoped that an "accident" might happen to him during the fighitng.

CB: The Emperor told Thrak that he would "find a way". So Thrak should've just had a Kilrathi agent "take care of Jukaga", or Thrak should''ve put Jukaga on a "diplomat's ship" Thrak could've rigged to blow.

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Chip
But they didn't think crazy that Marines would attempt boardings because they thought lame.

They thought... lame?

Only one captain is credited to have repelled boarders before they arrived, so it implies that the other captains were lame since they just followed Thrak's orders.

Or, they weren't able to stop the Confed marines, because they weren't prepared for a situation like that. They weren't prepared, because they didn't expect humans to even have such suicidal strategies.

The Marines accomplished alot. Had more Marines been out there, they probably would've accomplished even more. You and I really should play each other a space RTS game sometime like Homeworld.

Homeworld can suck me, it has nothing to do with this discusion. If they sent more marines, they'd have destroyed few more smaller capships, ones that can be replaced easily, while loosing much more soldiers than they already had to.

For the most part, probably no one else was on Thrak's SuperCarrier.

Except couple thousand Kilrathi, some of whom definetly didn't agree with the way Thrak run the war, and plenty of room for Jukaga to place some undercover agents.

So Thrak should've just had a Kilrathi agent "take care of Jukaga", or Thrak should''ve put Jukaga on a "diplomat's ship" Thrak could've rigged to blow.

No, there is absolutely no reason why Jukaga would have even been on the destroyer/cruiser that was suposed to bomb Earth, if Thrak didn't expect that it'll be destroyed eventually.

 

[Quarto]

Wait a minute...

Chip, who's dumber? The lieutenant that blindly follows his commander's orders, knowing full well that even if he thinks they're stupid, to disobey them is to die, or the commander that gives the stupid orders in the first place?

Put another way... Kilrathi captains and others are honour-bound; they must follow their commander no matter what. You cannot accuse them of stupidity simply because they did what was expected of them. On the other hand, Thrak is not required to make every decision by himself, and he is not required to ignore every single piece of sensible advice given to him by his subordinates...

 

[TC]

If they sent more marines, they'd have destroyed few more smallercapships, ones that can be replaced easily, while loosing much more soldiers than they already had to.

Pay attention. Marines did go after the 'smaller' ships. *Everything* is a threat once they get that close to your home base. 'Smaller' ships would have been the ones that irradiated Earth. 'Smaller' ships carried more fighters than the Terrans had in the battle. That's why the Marines went after *any and all* ships that they were able to reach, from destroyers to carriers.

TC

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by TC
Marines did go after the 'smaller' ships. *Everything* is a threat once they get that close to your home base.

I know that they went after cruisers and such, but if you'd destroy few more of those it wouldn't help you. Not in the long run, and not much in the current battle.

'Smaller' ships carried more fighters than the Terrans had in the battle.

Ships like destroyers/cruisers/frigates don't carry much fighters, if any at all...

That's why the Marines went after *any and all* ships that they were able to reach, from destroyers to carriers.

The main objective were the carriers, only when it got to hot during that battle, did some shuttles go after closer targets.

 

[TC]

Ships like destroyers/cruisers/frigates don't carry much fighters, if any at all...

Terran's basically have Carriers, few other Cap ships carry fighters. However, the Kilrathi have limited fighter capability on almost all of their ships. There were also a dozen normal sized Carriers in the Kilrathi fleet.

The heavy carriers were obviously major targets of the raids since they could destroy most, if not all of Confed's fighters and cap ships. However, if the marines just took out those carriers the humans would still have been horribly outmatched. Most of the kilrathi planes were already in space and the remaining carriers could still refuel and rearm them. The destroyers could easily take out the remaining human carriers and Earth would still get irradiated. Sure, the heavy carriers were dangerous, but the rest of the Kilrathi fleet could do just as much damage once they were that close to Earth.

TC

 

[Penguin]

The Kilrathi emperor said: "Let it not be forgotten that it is when the enemy is nearly defeated that he is most dangerous." During the BoT, with Confed's ass all hung out to dry and the boys got nowhere left to retreat there was only one thing they could realistically do - make the bastards sorry they ever chose to fuck with us. And on that basis your target picking is indiscriminate. From puny corvette to invincible supercarrier there's plenty to go round and you're all going to get some.
To bad the BoT's not a mission pack we can play.

 

[Quarto]

You'd need a hell of a computer to handle all those ships...

...And you'd need to be a hell of a pilot to make a difference. Most of us would probably be forced to eject within minutes of the start of the battle.

 

[Groove]

Eh?

Well, OK, let's say that the TC Space Force implements the new strategy - all cap ships should be boarded instead of destroyed.

Well heck, most of the problems have already been pointed out by Earthworm. It's probably been mentioned already, but think of the absolute bloodbath the marines had to go through in order to disable the shield generators on the wormhole in Prophecy.

Storming a capital ship of massive proportions would be impossible, or close to impossible. There'd be two methods of taking over a ship - one is brute force, like D-Day in France, and the other would be through misinformation - that is, sending fewer people under cover.

Of course, brute force requires a lot of people and even if the planning was meticulate, there would still be hundreds of casualties. Hundreds of lives lost, and don't start telling me that it doesn't matter. In my opinion, I'd prefer to preserve life, a step away from the generals before the 20th century.

But take D-Day as an example of an invasion of mass proportions (June 6, 1944). Mistakes were made all over the place, thousands were killed taking a single concerete pillbox with a single machine-gun.

But then there's the cladestine approach. Of course in real life, feeding yourself into a ship and then blowing it up James Bond style would be highly risky and would most often result in death and failure.

Let's consider the resources of such a series of operations. You'd prefer to mobilise hundreds of thousands of marines, each with two guns, say, uniforms, body armour, landing craft, landing craft carriers, pilots of the landing craft, support fire, landing sight preparation (bombing and attacks by fighters)....

Well, D-day took a year of planning and resource gathering. Considering that the ships in the WC universe don't travel singly - rather, they travel in massive fleets which would possess fierce crossfire - I'd say that the result of such an operation would be a bloody waste of resources, time and lives when you could just end it all with a fraction of the lives lost, some wreckage and a few expended torpedoes.

Sure, there'd be operations to take over new prototypes of ships, or ships considered at a disadvantage so we Terrans could study them (ie, damaged, irradiated, skeleton crew, in drydock, travelling singly etc). That's information gained without tremendous suffering and loss. Taking over an entire fleet with its defences, crew bristling with who-knows-how-many weapons, perhaps even automated with superior levels of detection - would not be suicide, but it would be a long, bloody and wasteful war!

 

[Chip]

RE: Capships should never be destroyed

There's another method of securing a ship for capture: Send in drone robots equipped with high powered needle shooting weapons that have their fletchette sprays coated with poison. Let the drones just spray that stuff all around. The drones could also explode some glue bombs to immobilize crew members.

 

[Quarto]

There's another method of securing a ship for capture: Send in drone robots equipped with high powered needle shooting weapons that have their fletchette sprays coated with poison. Let the drones just spray that stuff all around. The drones could also explode some glue bombs to immobilize crew members.

Grrrrrrroan. What do we have to do to get through to this guy?