A discussion on the true nature of the Nephilim
- Thread starter $tormin
- Start date
True, you can't fight a monster by becoming a monster. Certainly, I wouldn't expect Confed to simply line up Black Lancers and shoot them. However, I would expect Confed to have a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy while trying to capture the Balck Lancers, and to take a very wide interpretation of treason and complicity in genocide when trying the Black Lancers who were captured, especially given what we know of Confed law as it stood in WC4. Basically, it would mean those who didn't surrender PDQ would end up dead, and those who did would be divided pretty evenly into those who ended up facing the firing squad for direct involvement in what happened, and those who ended up doing serious hard time as accomplices. Either way, it means the destruction of the Black Lance as an *organised force*, which is far cry from killing each and every Black Lancer.
What gets on my nerves something fierce though, is all the hand-wringing vis a vis the rights of "innocent" Black Lance members. No-one particularly seems to give a damn about the billions of Kilrathi we killed when we took out Kilrah in WC3, or the Mandarins we killed when we nuked Ayer's rock, or the Border Worlders who got killed when Confed went on the warpath against them. Those are generally just accepted being a part of war. Why is it the Black Lance deserve to be treated with kid gloves when Confed comes down like a hammer on any other group that is a threat (or is percieved to be a threat) to the safety of the Confederation?
Best, Raptor
What gets on my nerves something fierce though, is all the hand-wringing vis a vis the rights of "innocent" Black Lance members. No-one particularly seems to give a damn about the billions of Kilrathi we killed when we took out Kilrah in WC3, or the Mandarins we killed when we nuked Ayer's rock, or the Border Worlders who got killed when Confed went on the warpath against them. Those are generally just accepted being a part of war. Why is it the Black Lance deserve to be treated with kid gloves when Confed comes down like a hammer on any other group that is a threat (or is percieved to be a threat) to the safety of the Confederation?
Best, Raptor
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
But there *was* fallout regarding the deaths of innocents at Kilrah -- it's mentioned in False Colors, about how Confed is worried about being particularly strict with the Kilrathi because of guilt.
Further, a lot of the Black Lance organization *was* innocent -- we know they staffed their starbase with normal Confed security people, and they developed their weapons by capturing scientists... and they captured these scientists by using legitimately uninformed Confed forces... and they even carried out space-based operations by paying mercenaries who had no idea what they were serving.
The BL at the end of WC4 no longer pose any military threat to Confed's security. They are also part of Confed. The way Confed goes about handling the Black Lance has serious implications for whether Confed wants to be a free nation or a tyranny.
Also, destroying Kilrah was the only alternative to the extinction of humanity. By contrast, I don't see *quite* that level of urgency when dealing with the now-exposed Black Lance. Without their Dragons they aren't much, and now that we know who they are there's very little they can accomplish. Therefore, we have other options besides simply killing them all. Remember: the destruction of Kilrah was a last-ditch option, something we pursued because all our other options were exhausted. That is not the case in dealing with the Black Lance.
Use the Nazi party analogy: Contrary to popular opinion, it isn't *against the law* to be a Nazi. Bad taste, yes. Reprehensible, certainly. Shows you to be a small-minded nasty human being, definitely. But illegal? No.
That's why, after WWII, the allies disqualified most Nazi party members from any activity in the post-war German government. HOWEVER, the only people who actually did hard time or worse were those who had provably committed crimes. For example, Hermann Goering was not put to death for being in the Nazi party, but for "Crimes against Humanity", "Crimes against Peace" and "Waging Aggressive War". There are lots of former Nazis alive even today in South America, but the Anti-Nazi prosecutors only interest themselves in those (like Adolph Eichmann) who were involved in the death camps or otherwise involved in the Holocaust. Ordinary soldiers (like Otto Skorzeny) are completely ignored.
The distinction is crucial; It's not a crime to hold political beliefs in a democracy; It IS a crime to act on those beliefs in a criminal manner. Thus, no Black Lancer, in a free country, would be put to death simply because they were in the Black Lance. Instead, they would be put to death if it could be proved that they had committed, or abetted others in committing, Murder, Piracy, Genocide, or other capital crime.
Somebody else mentioned that summary execution was completely legal by Confed's law by the time of WC4. Well, yeah. But just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. In some countries narcotics, handguns, prostitution, and tobacco are all perfectly legal, but it doesn't make them good things. Besides .. do you really want to live in a Confed where people like Tolwyn make the laws?
I'm glad Confed beat the Black Lance. If only they can avoid the temptation to BECOME the Black Lance in the process.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well... LOAF already explained that there was an outcry over Kilrah (and indeed, Blair did quite a bit of hand-wringing even before delivering the bomb). The Mandarins were traitors, and it was wartime. I for one had no second thoughts about destroying Ayer's Rock - I doubt that there were all that many civilians there, so it was a legitimate military target during the war. However, had they offered to surrender, I would hope that each and every one of them would get a fair trial, like Jazz did. And finally, the Border Worlds... what do you mean, no one seems to give a damn? Isn't that why we defected?
To put an end to it?
Assuming Confed was able to round up everyone who had anything to do with the BL, what would happen to the scientists who developed the BL's equipment? Would they be let off for not voluntarily helping the BL? What about the scientists who developed the genselect device? Would they be convicted of breaching the biological weapon prohibition if they had been coerced against their will?
Well... LOAF already explained that there was an outcry over Kilrah (and indeed, Blair did quite a bit of hand-wringing even before delivering the bomb). The Mandarins were traitors, and it was wartime. I for one had no second thoughts about destroying Ayer's Rock - I doubt that there were all that many civilians there, so it was a legitimate military target during the war. However, had they offered to surrender, I would hope that each and every one of them would get a fair trial, like Jazz did. And finally, the Border Worlds... what do you mean, no one seems to give a damn? Isn't that why we defected?
Okay, fair point.
Maybe things aren't quite as black and white as all that. However, I think that the Black Lance at the end of WC4 posed a far greater threat to Confed than is commonly assumed. For example, they still had their bio-weapons on the Axius starbase (which the BW had nowhere near enough firepower to destroy) and it doesn't take a Dragon to deliver one of those things. All it would take was a disguised transport with a few fanatics on board to sow the Gen-Select on a populated world. That was why I think Confed would have come down hard on them.Bottom line: If the Black Lance had surrendered, then I agree with you guys, probably more than I did when we started this discussion. They should be given a fair trial and the innocent seperated from the guilty. However, if they didn't, then the weapons they had in their possesion made them far too dangerous for Confed to treat with kid gloves. And whatever the outcome, the Black Lance were far too dangerous as a *group* for Confed to allow them to continue operating. While induvidual Black Lancers might still be around after having faced the courts, the Black Lance as a organised force would be dead and gone.
Best, Raptor
Cmdre Crane Seccafien
Rear Admiral
Who would want to revive those menacing pirates. The confederation would be in deeper distress if some maniac revived the Black lance in 2785
Nah ... there'll never be more Black Lance. Too much baggage associated with the name. OTOH, Confed does need Special Forces from time to time... it wouldn't surprise me if we started hearing about some super-secret organization (like Delta Force in the US) that did all the dirty jobs that need doing but no one wants to admit to doing. Perhaps they would code-name it something like "Dark Spear".
Similar to the fact that there's no more "Wehrmacht" but there *is* a "Bundeswehr". Respectfully,
Brian P.
[Edited by pendell on 06-30-2001 at 22:44]