A discussion on the true nature of the Nephilim

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Rami Sihvo
Raptor, there was a mention of "Great hunt" in HTL meaning that after WC4 BL was destroyed by Confed and BW. Is there any offical refereces to this or is all of this just
a fanfiction?

I assume you're referring to the Black Lance Huntdown. The Huntdown itself is just an Aces thing. We were getting pretty sick of people trying to create "reformed" or "innocent" Black Lance groups that swooped back in at our darkest hour to act as humanity's Aryan guardians, so we decided to write them out of the club storyline and universe once and for all.

Having said that though, there *is* no evidence that the Black Lance exist any more in the canon WC universe, and quite a bit of evidence that they don't. Personally, I believe that while they might not have been taken out in the *manner* described by the Aces, the Aces are correct in that the Black Lance no longer exists by the time we get to Prophecy.

Best, Raptor

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Nep Parth
Yeah, a lot of stuff in HTL and MTV is kind of bunk. Like the time one of the lieutenants on a Concordia-class carrier asked about the Phase-Transit Cannon, and the captain replied that it was taken out in the refit...

Of course, it should be noted that particular Captain is borderline insane and on major medication. Seriosusly, it is *very* hard to police continuity when you're dealing two dozen odd writers (often very independant minded ones) and a project that has spanned three years and close to 120 chapters to date.

Essentially, I (as the PBM co-ordinator for HTL) and the induvidual group co-ordinators to our best to balance canon WC with what has been written by the Aces in the past and the creative process of a storyline of our own. As for how well we succeed in that, well, only history will judge whether HTL is a success or a failure. And our history will be written by the Kilrathi!....oh, wait.

Best, Raptor

 

[redwolf]

Originally posted by Iota

Originally posted by Supdon3
There wasnt an achille's heel in WC1. That was won through a hard fought campaign.

But you have to admit that the Achilles heel is the norm for WC games.

And the Achille's heel of the Terrans is that they accept false peace treaties...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally posted by Supdon3
What about WC2? That was won by stealing a fighter and destroying an entire starbase with a single fighter.

To be fair, the end of WC2 was really just a big Blair ego thing... if he hadn't stolen the Sabre, Angel's wing would have destroyed K'tithrak Mang.

 

[pendell]

Originally posted by Penguin
That's crap and you know it. No future WC game is going to be modelled on a nightmare situation where the Nephilim overwhelm and waste the Confederation and there's no way to win. In the next game the Nephilim will undoubtedly have improved their tactics and such but they remain a fallible foe. Don't let their superior numbers overwhelm you, Confed has its advantages. Like you said Midway's pilots accounted for 4000+ of the enemy. That's got to count for something.
[Edited by Penguin on 06-26-2001 at 05:12] [/B]

I don't think anyone's arguing that the Nephilem are going to win -- I'm simply saying that they have some commanding advantages.

This is due to the nature of WC. In WC, the Good Guys must always be in desperate, last-ditch straits such that only the raw heroism of Our Hero can Save the Day.

I don't think anyone wants a game where Confed has a commanding military advantage over its opponent: In such a game the player would fly patrol after patrol where they encounter absolutely nothing. Occasionally there'd be a red dot on the screen, but your wingman would instantly pounce on him and probably kill him before he even got a shot off. More empty navpoints, then fly back to the Midway and learn about the massive gains Confed is making. The main character would get perhaps 3 kills in the entire game and Confed would still win even if the character sat out the entire campaign on the flight deck. That's a soldier, not a Hero.

That ain't WC. WC is target-rich environments, desperate fights, and one-shot suicidal missions. Every mission is "the most important mission you'll ever fly ... because if we fail here, God help humanity."

Confed admirals in the games aren't stupid; they don't resort to last-ditch suicide missions when perfectly normal missions will do the job. The only time our character gets a chance to be a Hero is when everything else has fallen apart and the entire outcome of the war rests solely on his shoulders. Thus, Confed CANNOT have any chance of winning without our hero.

That is why the Nephilem have commanding advantages -- so that Confed cannot win without a hero. That is also why the Nephilem will lose -- not because Confed has bigger numbers, superior technology, or better strategy, but because it has a hero. 1st Lt. Lance R. Casey, to be precise. That -- and only that -- will be the margin of victory.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

 

[pendell]

Originally posted by Raptor
[Having said that though, there *is* no evidence that the Black Lance exist any more in the canon WC universe, and quite a bit of evidence that they don't. Personally, I believe that while they might not have been taken out in the *manner* described by the Aces, the Aces are correct in that the Black Lance no longer exists by the time we get to Prophecy.

At the end of Forstchen's WC4 Tolwyn is shown musing about the future of the Black Lance and his great mistake -- that you don't *need* to destroy all of humanity to build the GE "supermen". My impression was that he had decided at the end of the book that the correct answer would have been to conceal the BL among the normal population -- so they would be there if they were needed. I got the impression that whoever his successor to the "Project" was did exactly that -- destroyed the ships and machinery, but concealed as many of the Project Personnel as possible in various places, such as Confed's Navy. Who knows, perhaps the Project continues -- quietly --. It's amazing how many programs the politicians think are cancelled seem to come back out of their graves with amazing regularity.

That, and I just can't see Confed committing genocide against people based merely on their genetic heritage. That was precisely what Tolywn wanted to do -- destroy those whose genes were imperfect. For Confed to hunt down all the GE people, simply because they *were* GE people, would be to do exactly what Tolwyn did -- just with a different definition of what constitutes "imperfect genes".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

 

[Nep Parth]

He did mention that there were forces that no one could find...but that they were not very large or powerful. There probably were forces stationed in a system outside of Confed's borders, which would not be covered in Blair's huntdown.

However, these forces probably consisted of a few soldiers and a research ship, or something...no Dragons. While the Black Lance are tough and very quick, they don't seem to be terribly intelligent...they don't seem to have a concept of a tactical retreat to regroup. They fought fanatically to defend the Princeton, instead of taking their Dragons and flying away very, very quickly. (Then again, maybe they didn't have a lot of time...)

And, as I said, a couple of the writers for HTL needed to have their facts straight before writing...

Not exactly imperfect genes, just improper. Those people shouldn't have been created in the first place, and as they are, they are a threat to humanity or to humanity's stability. Therefore, they must be destroyed. Since many of the Lancers were fanatical when it came to the Project (especially the Plan), they probably would fight to make it come true...so, they had to be destroyed.

[Edited by Nep Parth on 06-27-2001 at 10:15]

 

[Supdon3]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

Originally posted by Supdon3
What about WC2? That was won by stealing a fighter and destroying an entire starbase with a single fighter.

To be fair, the end of WC2 was really just a big Blair ego thing... if he hadn't stolen the Sabre, Angel's wing would have destroyed K'tithrak Mang.

But the point is, no one took advantage of any Kilrathi weakness to destroy K'tithrak Mang.

 

[redwolf]

If you destroy the GE personnel just for existing, aren't you just as bad as the people behind the project?

Mind you, if they committed capital offences or attacked, then that solves that nicety. Yet what of those that don't?

And by the way, the very first WC was not in essence a game of desperation. It was the best game in a sense that it felt like any other war, not some holy battle to the death which WC got inevitably twisted into!

 

[Nep Parth]

No, they were threatening humanity. Confed didn't threaten the Black Lance, but the Black Lance threatened Confed...

Even those not directly involved knew of it, and they were guilty by association. They knew what they were doing, they knew what others were doing, so they're just as guilty.

WC3 was the only war of desperation...the only other game that you are outnumbered so badly is Prophecy. WC3, especially on Nightmare, is really hard on some missions...

 

[Ladiesman^]

Hmm...I agree that Confed pretty much couldn't destroy all the GE "Supermen". It's not their fault they have "bad" genes. It really would make them just like the Black Lance. In my opinion, it would be even worse than the Black Lance because it would be the government killing people who can't help what they are, not a rouge terrorist group killing people.

Also, I think even if the GE people attacked, I don't think they could be destroyed. Now, I don't know how law works in the 28th century but generally people who can't help what they do aren't destroyed. I'd imagine the GE people were bred to be killers. So if they kill they're just doing what's in their nature. So that would lead me to beleive that they would just be imprisoned or something.

p.s.

This is a long thread. It's been going for like, a month. Maybe more.

 

[Nep Parth]

I don't think it makes Confed worse than the BL for destroying them. You might as well say that we're as bad as the Kilrathi for totaling Kilrah.

Regardless of whether or not they were born or bred to kill, they were killers, and ruthless ones at that. Perhaps it was Confed's intention to imprison them, but the Black Lance doesn't surrender, apparently. They force you into a life of death situation...if you can't kill, then you'll be at the mercy of those who can...namely, the Lancers.

Still, they had a choice...they could have denied their killing instincts. If that was the case, then they could have simply disappeared into civilian life...like Alfred Bester!

 

[Raptor]

Confed couldn't justly kill or imprison anyone for being Genetically Enhanced, that's true. However, Confed could justly imprison (and kill, if they refused to surrender) those who belong to the *Black Lance*, a terrorist organisation that had been murdered civilians, committed an act of genocide, and committed treason against the Confederation. That's no differant from cracking down on any other terrorist organisation. The fact that these particular terrorists happen to have belonged to a particular genetic type doesn't make it unjustified persecution, just like the fact that other terrorist groups may be composed entirely of those who belong to particular religious or ethnic groups doesn't make it unjustified persecution of those groups.

Best, Raptor

 

[pendell]

True -- but when I see phrases like "the Hunting down of
the Black Lance" I have an image of massive progroms, of
long lines of people walking up to get a hypo full of nano
bots -- if you're GE you die screaming, if you're not
nothing happens.

I can't see Confed doing that. The most I can see
them doing is executing those that are provably guilty of
capital crimes, imprisoning those that are guilty of
lesser crimes, and integrating the rest back into society
as normal human beings -- as long as they behave themselves.
But they'll be watched for the rest of their lives.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Raptor

Confed couldn't justly kill or imprison anyone for being Genetically Enhanced, that's true. However, Confed could justly imprison (and kill, if they refused to surrender) those who belong to the *Black Lance*, a terrorist organisation that had been murdered civilians, committed an act of genocide, and committed treason against the Confederation. That's no differant from cracking down on any other terrorist organisation. The fact that these particular terrorists happen to have belonged to a particular genetic type doesn't make it unjustified persecution, just like the fact that other terrorist groups may be composed entirely of those who belong to particular religious or ethnic groups doesn't make it unjustified persecution of those groups.

Best, Raptor

But from what I understand the GE supermen were bred by the Project and born into this whole deal. They didn't have a choice. If two countries go to war, and one of them kills civilians, does that give the other the right to kill everyone who is from the country? Because that's generally what your saying. These people had no choice, and even the ones who never commited a crime should be killed or imprisoned for life just because of what they were born into? That's just downright wrong.

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Ladiesman^ But from what I understand the GE supermen were bred by the Project and born into this whole deal. They didn't have a choice. If two countries go to war, and one of them kills civilians, does that give the other the right to kill everyone who is from the country? Because that's generally what your saying. These people had no choice, and even the ones who never commited a crime should be killed or imprisoned for life just because of what they were born into? That's just downright wrong. [/B]

There are people born and raised in the real world in communities and groups that believe it is perfectly acceptable to to kill those who are Black, Hispanic, homosexual, Catholic, whatever. When these people commit hate crimes, does the law go easy on them becuase "they had no choice"? Of course not. And as "committing no crime", as Nep said, by going along with the rest of the Black Lance, they did commit treason against the Confederation, and were a party to what happened on telamon.

Best, Raptor

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by pendell
True -- but when I see phrases like "the Hunting down of
the Black Lance" I have an image of massive progroms, of
long lines of people walking up to get a hypo full of nano
bots -- if you're GE you die screaming, if you're not
nothing happens.

I can't see Confed doing that. The most I can see
them doing is executing those that are provably guilty of
capital crimes, imprisoning those that are guilty of
lesser crimes, and integrating the rest back into society
as normal human beings -- as long as they behave themselves.
But they'll be watched for the rest of their lives.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, we don't know how exactly Confed did go about taking out the Black Lance, that's true enough. If they had surrendered, I imagine that they might well have been treated in the way you describe. Given the mentality of the Black Lance though, I don't see them just calmly turning themselves over to Confed. And if they tried to make a fight of it, then Confed would have no choice but to hunt them down. The fact that they posses weapons capable of wiping out all life on a world makes them far to dangerous to be treated with kid gloves.

Also, I wish people wouldn't keep fogging the issue by using "GE" and "Black Lance" interchangbly. The two are not the same thing. While the Black Lance might all be of one genotype, not everyone of that genotype belongs to the Black Lance. Roughly 10% of the population (the ones that would be left alive by the Gen-Select) is of the same genotype as the GE, the ones who have all the right genes in all the right combinations.

The Black Lance are an *idealogical* grouping, not a genetic one. They have a belief that the 90% of humanity that doesn't meet their Master Race genotype must be destroyed, and they have the weapon to do it. That's why Confed would come down very hard and very fast on them. The Black lance were not some persecuted genetic minority, but a clear and present danger to billions of people.

Best, Raptor

 

[redwolf]

And something else that should be added which many people from Common Law countries (Commonwealth countries and USA) fail to comprehend...

People are innocent until proven guilty. It's been that way since the days of old England, and I'd say if Confed appears to be the way it is, I'd say it would continue until the 27th Century.

It would be illegal and 'unconstitutional' for entire groups of GE to be killed just because they were GE. Unless they committed a crime, they 'should'nt' be killed.

Thats the theory behind it anyway.

 

[Raptor]

At the time of WC4, Confed is operating under something that is much closer to martial law than to common law. Read about the summary execution of the Border Worlds pilot in WC4, and how that was entirely legal under the law that operated at the time in WC4. (TPOF novel.)

The irony, of course, is that Tolwyn and his cronies on the Admirality Court werte the ones who helped push that through. If they were willing react that way to the Border Worlders (who posed a minimal threat), I doubt Confed would bee too concerned with legal niceties when it went after the Black Lance after they had wiped out a planet.

Best, Raptor

 

[Dak]

I think it may sound extreme but members of the Lance would too dangerous to be left alive. What would you do with someone who would wipe out virually all the people on a peaceful planet?

What's the alternatives? Dump them on a remote planet like in ST: Wrath Of Khan or Alien3?