Your Favorite ship

Death's Head · May 27, 2000

Can't wait to see it, as long as I'm not on the receiving end of one of those blasters.

I forgot to ask how many, but I assumed there would be two. What about missiles? Surely there wouldn't be 2 DFs and 3 HS?

Would the Gratha have mass drivers and lasers or something else? Two lasers and two tacyhons would make more sense.

Quarto · May 27, 2000

Don't be too happy about Dust Cannons. Remember how quickly they use up your energy. And yes, two. That's all there's room for.
Missiles... hmm... haven't thought about missiles. Yes, there ought to be more than that - but not much more, because the Scim was never meant to carry all that many. Hmm... how many does the Tigershark carry? And the Piranha?

The Gratha - I don't think tachyons would be all too appropriate - only one Kilrathi fighter (the Vaktoth) had tachyons, and not too many Confed fighters either. These things are probably quite costly. Actually, mass drivers and lasers aren't that bad, though maybe having two pairs of mass drivers would work better. Thing is, we can't overdo their armament, because they ARE supposed to be flying antiques.

Sonic98 · May 27, 2000

I wish they would have made the nuke more usable in WC2

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quarto:
Oh, and if you consider 20cm of armour to be poor, Earthworm, then you're crazy. That's close to triple the armour on a Rapier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The side armor on the Sabre is indeed very thin. Caused quite a few problems for me in the last SO1 mission.

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death's Head:
No, I have not noticed side shields on any WC3 ship, nor is 20 or 18 cm thin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WC2 ship.

Well, they are very thin. Though the shield strength for the side isn't present in the files.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The 'star has 20 on all sides. Big difference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The stars side armor is 20 stronger than Sabres, and that is a big difference. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Morningstars shields recharge quite a few times slower than the Sabre's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Morningstars shields are almost two times as strong as the Sabres.

So you don't need them to recharge as fast anyhow. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>About the Particle cannons, you need 3 to kill fighters? I use either pair of the Sabre's most of the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Two MD's from the Sabre aren't strong enough to kill as quickly as the 'stars Particles. And the Particles on the Sabre are nearly useless IMO. And I need 3 Particles to kill fighters QUICKLY, so I don't have to chase after them and was my AB fuel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I also rarely have trouble hitting targets, even the smaller ones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did I say I have problems with hitting targers?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The shields take forever to recharge on the Morningstar and are less than twice as thick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They're 10 cm less than twice as thick.... That isn't enough for you? I would gladly exchange the recharge rate on any fighter if I would get shields that are so much thicker. And the shiled recharge rate on the 'star is 3, which isn't that much slower than the Sabre, and is the recharge rate of most Confed ships.

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death's Head:
I just don't see how the Morningstar is a better ship, I couldn't argue if someone preferred to fly it, but saying it's better as a fighter just seem...biased in some way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hm, better side armor, better shields, the Mace, better guns.......

Death's Head · May 27, 2000

Recharge rate of 3?? To my best recallection, it was 6.

"The stars side armor is 20 stronger than Sabres, and that is a big difference."
20? Methinks 2.

"The Morningstars shields are almost two times as strong as the Sabres. So you don't need them to recharge as fast anyhow."
Oh sure, oh wait...you don't have any chaff

"Did I say I have problems with hitting targers?"
You said you had trouble hitting things with the Sabre, IINM.

"The side armor on the Sabre is indeed very thin. Caused quite a few problems for me in the last SO1 mission."
If the 18 cm caused problems, how did you survive with any other ship than the Broadsword?

Death's Head · May 27, 2000

"Don't be too happy about Dust Cannons. Remember how quickly they use up your energy."
Why not? They are one of the most efficient guns available, you just have to place them so you hit the target more. The Scim should allow for that.

"Hmm... how many does the Tigershark carry? And the Piranha?"
You fool...go to my site.
Missiles
Piranha 2 IR, 4 HS
Tigershark 36 RP, 4 HS, 2 FF, 2 IR/Wild Weasel 36 RP, 6 HS, 2 FF, 2 AR

"The Gratha - I don't think tachyons would be all too appropriate "
Non? Both the Kilrathi fighters have them in wcp.

"only one Kilrathi fighter (the Vaktoth) had tachyons"
Oh that Dralthi was shooting carrots then?

"and not too many Confed fighters either"
Not too many at all, just the t-bolt, the excalibur, the panther, the wasp, the Vampire, and variants of the Devastator.

"These things are probably quite costly."
Probably so, but if the Dralthi can mount one...

"maybe having two pairs of mass drivers would work better."
If you don't want it to perform better than the tigershark, yes. The mass driver range has never been what it should, especially in Proph.

"Thing is, we can't overdo their armament, because they ARE supposed to be flying antiques."
I quite agree, but they weren't really antiques in FC. Perhaps if they had a few cheap missiles and a couple torps?

The Scim missiles...how about 3 hs, 2 df, 6 decoys, and 2 standard IR?

[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 27, 2000).]

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death's Head:
Recharge rate of 3?? To my best recallection, it was 6.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>According to WC2se, Sabre has a recharge rate of 1, and the star of 3.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"The stars side armor is 20 stronger than Sabres, and that is a big difference."
20? Methinks 2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In the game files, the shield and armor strength is given in tens and hundreds. If you take 180 and 200, 20 is a big difference, if you take 18 and 20, 2 is a big difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh sure, oh wait...you don't have any chaff

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Me thinks chaff is completly uneccassary in WC2.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You said you had trouble hitting things with the Sabre, IINM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, no I didn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If the 18 cm caused problems, how did you survive with any other ship than the Broadsword?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe because I didn't have to fly against heavy capships in ships that are not designed to fly against capships? Maybe those ships move faster and are more responsive, allowing me to avoid taking so many hits. Maybe some ships, like the Rapier, have better shields than the Sabre? And of course I can by flying the Crossbow?

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death's Head:

"only one Kilrathi fighter (the Vaktoth) had tachyons"
Oh that Dralthi was shooting carrots then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't forget the Bloodfang, that had Tachyons too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"and not too many Confed fighters either"
Not too many at all, just the t-bolt, the excalibur, the panther, the wasp, the Vampire, and variants of the Devastator.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And out of all the Confed fighters from all the games and novels, these numbers represent a large percentage?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I quite agree, but they weren't really antiques in FC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of course they were.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Scim missiles...how about 3 hs, 2 df, 6 decoys, and 2 standard IR?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>6 Decoys? You'd be able to distract two, at most three missiles with that.

Death's Head · May 27, 2000

There's no Bloodfang in Proph, which is what we are talking about.

"these numbers represent a large percentage?"
Let's see here, we have all but two of the major frontline ships, even if the Piranhas and sharks out number any other single type, as a whole they represent a large part of the fighter fleet, but unlikely the majority. Even if Piranha and sharks make up 60 percent of the vehicle mix, 40 percent is a large number of ships.

"Of course they were."
Didn't describe them at all as antiques. They could be upgraded as the Dralthi was. But really, I don't think having them serve on a very modern ship, the Karga is acceptable unless the Gratha was overhauled or reintroduced. Otherwise we would hear of ships like the Vesuvius carrying Scimitars or Raptors. Did you ever read that? Methinks not. Lastly, if Gratha are in frontline service at the same time as the t-bolt and the t-bolt returns to serve about modern ships and stations, why can't Gratha return with modifications?

"6 Decoys? You'd be able to distract two, at most three missiles with that."
The reason for that is simple, but then I don't have to explain it. Just so you know, you can survive a mission without too much trouble using only 6.

"According to WC2se, Sabre has a recharge rate of 1, and the star of 3."
When I looked at mine I wrote 6, but it could be 4. I know I changed my number so I can't check this now. But if the rate is even 3, then it would take a bit more than twice as long to recharge a shield as the Sabre. So in a sense, the Sabre's shields are superior.

"Maybe some ships, like the Rapier, have better shields than the Sabre?"
Now you're just talking nosense. The shields are of higher thickness. The Rapier recharge is so slow that you have to prey your target doesn't have a turret.

"because I didn't have to fly against heavy capships in ships that are not designed to fly against capships"
If you're saying the Sabre is not designed to take out capships(it doesn't matter the Ralatha and Fralthra both take 2 torps), you are mistaken.

Earthworm · May 27, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death's Head:
There's no Bloodfang in Proph, which is what we are talking about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Really? There are no Scims in Prophecy either.

Seriosly, where have you started talking about Prophecy?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Let's see here, we have all but two of the major frontline ships, even if the Piranhas and sharks out number any other single type, as a whole they represent a large part of the fighter fleet, but unlikely the majority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Um, no. We have the first Panther, all Vampires, the first Wasp, and the Black Devastator, plus the T-bolt and Excal which are definetly not front line fighters. That leaves the Piranha, the second Piranha, the T-shark, the second T-shark, the Black Wasp, the Black Panther, the first Devastator and the Black Shrike without Tachyons. Not to mention countless older fighters that still must be in service but not on the front lines. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Even if Piranha and sharks make up 60 percent of the vehicle mix, 40 percent is a large number of ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But it is less than 40%.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>They could be upgraded as the Dralthi was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Dralthi was never that much upgreaded. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But really, I don't think having them serve on a very modern ship, the Karga is acceptable unless the Gratha was overhauled or reintroduced. Otherwise we would hear of ships like the Vesuvius carrying Scimitars or Raptors. Did you ever read that? Methinks not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Gratha isn't as old as a Scimitar or a Raptor though. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lastly, if Gratha are in frontline service at the same time as the t-bolt and the t-bolt returns to serve about modern ships and stations, why can't Gratha return with modifications?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The T-bolts we saw in SO have very few upgrades, and they're definetly not fron line fighters.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The reason for that is simple, but then I don't have to explain it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hm, I doubt that. There's absolutely no reason why it would cary only 6. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Just so you know, you can survive a mission without too much trouble using only 6.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Certainly not if you play on the higher difficulties in a mission with more than 15 fighters.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When I looked at mine I wrote 6, but it could be 4. I know I changed my number so I can't check this now. But if the rate is even 3, then it would take a bit more than twice as long to recharge a shield as the Sabre. So in a sense, the Sabre's shields are superior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really don't see your logic. True, it'll take them longer to recharge, but they are almost two times as strong. So while the enemy ships are hitting your armor after your shields went down, I'll still be protected be my shields.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Now you're just talking nosense. The shields are of higher thickness. The Rapier recharge is so slow that you have to prey your target doesn't have a turret.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again with the recharge rate..... I don't care if they recharge slower because if I'm in trouble I can always fly away for a second or two, but at least I'll have more time before those shields go down and I have to worry about loosing armor, and even worse, loosing some vital systems.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you're saying the Sabre is not designed to take out capships(it doesn't matter the Ralatha and Fralthra both take 2 torps), you are mistaken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What the hell? I'm saying that I don't worry about other fighters (Rapier, Ferret, Epee) having thiner shields than the Sabre, because I don't go against capships with all them flak and anti-matter turrets. The Sabre is obviously designed as a heavy fighter/light bomber, and it should have strong enough shields to whithstand the capship fire.

[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 27, 2000).]

Quarto · May 27, 2000

Eek.

First things first. Earthworm, try and fit all the replies in one post. It seems to be standard procedure

.

Right then. The Morningstar's recharge rate... whoa... Houston, we have a typo. DH, I have no idea how it happened, but it would appear that the Morningstar's recharge is indeed 3, not 4 as I previously told you. Apparently, I pressed the wrong key when typing them out

.

However, the Rapier's shield thickness is not "nearly double" as Earthworm claims - it's not even 1.5 that of the Sabre. And its recharge rate of 3 is not the recharge rate on most Confed ships - only the Broadsword, Rapier, and the Morningstar.

Just so you know, a Sabre's shields are much better against flak than the Morningstars - because flak doesn't do much damage, but frequently. So, a better recharge rate means you'll live longer.

I also don't see anything that would indicate that the Gratha isn't as old as a Scim or a Raptor.

Furthermore, I must most strenously object to Earthworm saying such utterly dumb things like "the Dralthi was never that much upgraded". Saying that not only makes Earthworm look like an idiot, it also hurts the feelings of all those Kilrathi engineers that slaved over the Dralthi for years and years, trying to make it good enough to stand up against modern Confed fighters.

And yes, Earthworm, we are talking about Prophecy. As for Scims... you'll see.

Right... Tachyons... I actually looked at the KSaga stats, because I'd forgotten all about your web page, and I was too lazy to start up WCP

. Yes, I see your point. So, the Gratha has just won an upgrade - its lasers will indeed be tachyons, and its missile loadout will happily multiply

.

Incidentally, I just realised something - the Scim is actually bigger than all the Confed fighters in WCP. Actually, it's bigger than most Confed fighters. Full stop. What that means for loadout... I think we'll be having approximately what you said, but actually a bit more. Here's what I propose:
3 HS, 3 IR, 2 DF (can be replaced with Torps if necessary), and 18 Decoys.
The reason for the amount of Decoys is simple - even the 20m long Arrow in WC3 had 16 of 'em. But don't worry - if we want to make things tougher, the Dauntless can always... run out... of Decoys

.

Death's Head · May 28, 2000

Blast it! Why did I trust you, Q? I should never have upgraded the Morningstar's rate. LOL. I should drag all my stats around where ever I go next time, oh wait...I'm over half-way done.

3 sounds right, which I kind of said at some point.

One reason I think the Sabre's shields are superior is when you find yourself battling 6 or so of Confed's best fighters in that era. I got half as far in Academy's gauntlet in the Morningstar as I did with the Sabre (all the way) because of damage taken by continuous weapons fire with that slow Morningstar rate. I actually got further with the Broadsword than with the 'star.

"I also don't see anything that would indicate that the Gratha isn't as old as a Scim or a Raptor."
If Raptors have been around since Shotglass's first days flying I would have to say that fighter design is likely older. This only makes the Gratha to be more likely be around.

EW says the Gratha is an antique, this would be true if the Gratha were not renovated or redesigned. If the Kilrathi took one of their worst ships and made it into something that fell just short more or less of matching Confed's newer counterparts, you should acknowledge the possibility that a good ship survived in much the same way and still flies rating just short of a t-bolt or Panther. Oh wait, it doesn't matter in this case what some think.

"Its lasers will indeed be tachyons"
You don't want there to be lasers? 2 Tachyon, 2 Mass?? Hmm, yeah I guess that'll work, sure. That would probably make more sense, I just thought lasers would keep the cost down some.

The Gratha is a tall ship, we could easily have about 12 light, 6 medium-sized, and 3-4 heavy missiles/torps.

"I actually looked at the KSaga stats"
For guns? Just ask, I have those memorized.

"Incidentally, I just realised something - the Scim is actually bigger than all the Confed fighters in WCP."
The volume is larger. Confed either short-changed the modern fighters or the equipment got less space-consuming. The engines need to take...hang on...*several minutes later* The old engines run up to almost the forward edge of the Acceleration Absorbers. Ok, we ought to have room for at least a doubling of missiles, IMO. 3 IR, 3 HS, 2 DF, 2 LtTorp, is this sufficient?

BTW, the Arrow looks like it has even more volume, how about 12 decoys?

Bandit LOAF · May 28, 2000

If you'll be so kind as to refer to your Wing Commander I & II: The Ultimate Strategy Guide (page 62) you'll find that the Gratha first entered service in 2654.

Quarto · May 28, 2000

"If Raptors have been around since Shotglass's first days flying I would have to say that fighter design is likely older. This only makes the Gratha to be more likely be around."
Of course

. I'm not saying that the Gratha shouldn't be around, just that we don't know when they were designed.

Personally, I agree totally that old fighters can be very well upgraded to near modern status - for one thing, we must keep in mind that the Tigershark is just a really upgraded Hellcat

. Well, sorta. Don't take me literally on that, Earthworm

.
And if EW doesn't agree that old fighters can be upgraded to modern status, then he's a hypocrite *cough*Rapier*cough*.

<The above sentence is not in any way to be construed as an acknowledgement of the WC Movie's claim to be a part of the WC continuum

>

Well, if they were to replace the mass drivers with the tachyons, than they have a hell of a lot of left over mass drivers, non?

So they'd probably use them instead of lasers...
12, 6, 3-4... some would say that's too much, but I think you're right. This beast is, after all, pretty darned huge. So, let's see... the light 12 will be HS, FF, IR. Now, looking at Kilrathi stats, HS are by far the most common of these. So, I think 6. As for the FF and IR, these seem to depend on which game we're looking at. How about 3/3?
The medium missiles, of course, will be Darts. The Kilrathi have no other medium-sized missiles.
My, oh my, this thing will have a lot of firepower compared to the Scim

. Well, I think the heavy missiles will be 3 Torps rather than 4.

"3 IR, 3 HS, 2 DF, 2 LtTorp," - that sounds about right, yes.

I'm reluctant to go down to 12 decoys, simply because I know that I'll have trouble surviving

. Besides, volume or not, the Scim's weird wing structure gives plenty of additional spaces to simply hang up ordinance. 16?

Quarto · May 28, 2000

Oh, I didn't see LOAF's post

. Nor the Strategy guide, for that matter, since I don't have one

. 2654, you say? Neat. So it's only 27 years old in 81

.

Death's Head · May 28, 2000

Appreciates LOAF's kind referral, but like Q, I don't have the guide. I thought about getting it, but I got the Armada guide instead for 1.25.

"So it's only 27 years old in 81"
The Dralthi would be older, non?

I don't know what else was "acquired", but medium slots could be rocket pods. I thought WC4 calls IRs medium. DFs seem to be light, as do FF. Here's another proposal: 4 DF, 2 FF, 2 6-pack RP, 4 HS, 2 IR, 2 light torp. It should carry more than the Vaktoth, but if the missile count turns out to be too high, there can be a fighter loadout and a bomber, like the Vaktoth; 4 DF, 4 HS, 2 IR, 2 FF/4 DF, 4 HS, 12 RP, 2 LT.

16 decoys it is. There will be enough need for them, I'm sure.

Quarto · May 28, 2000

Aye, the Dralthi would be older - and it's still in action. So let all ye Earthworms cease thy complaints.
Not that Earthworm has had a chance to complain yet... but, just to make sure

.

As for the loadout, we can have it equipped with rocket pods once it's in our grasp... we can even give it a dust cannon or two

. But we also need the Kilrathi loadout... hmm, maybe that "fighter" loadout you just suggested would do the trick?

Bandit LOAF · May 28, 2000

Lots of fighters have been upgraded to current status... look at how the Hellcat, Longbow and Arrow were around circa WC1.

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