You Know What Would Be Cool?

[Ricochet]

You, sir, are an idiot.

That's really all I can think to say now.

a very elaborate and solid argument. Bravo.

Lehah, are you always laughing when someone's opinion differs from yours?
Ah, yeah, sometimes you insult them, i forgot that...

Miracynonyx100: Jesus, tone it down a bit. There's no reason to get so worked up if somebody doesen't like your idea...

 

[ck9791]

But the idea of battleships being the heart of battlegroups is patently ridiculous, it's something out of WW2, definetly not the 27th century. Carriers have been around since WW2, and have established themselves as the heart of the battlegroup-- they're here to stay.

Wing Commander's portrayal of the Terran-Kilrathi war is supposed to be similar to WW2 (the pacific theater) in space. This is why the use of carriers and fighters are first being used to their potential at the beginning of the war and why battlegroups tend to be focused around Battleships in Action Stations, because the abilities of carriers and fighters has not been fully realized yet. This is similar to the time before WW2 where the battleship was still believed to be the most powerful naval vessel, not the carrier.

I also think WC use of jump points and jump drives fits with the idea of the war being WW2 in space. Having fleets jump between systems in order to advance into enemy territory could be a reflection of the island hopping campaign used by the allies in the pacific theater, where not every island was taken, only important or key islands with others being bypassed or isolated.

 

[LeHah]

Lehah, are you always laughing when someone's opinion differs from yours?

No, I laugh when someone is obviously stupider than me and doesn't know when to keep their gob shut. While I'm by no means LOAF, I do think of myself as rather educated in things involving WC and I've see this guy's type enough to know when to shake my head and mutter under my breath.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Lets all step back a bit, I think that we can have this argument in a more friendly manner.

As others have explained, the physics of the Wing Commander universe are essentially a rule-set rather than an attempt to do realistic space combat. They're designed around enabling the idea of the Pacific War in space - jumping from system to system until you reach the enemy homeworld is island hopping.

... at the same time, it ain’t hurtin’ nobody. If someone wants to tell a story about an FTL ship or write up the specs for fun or anything, what's the problem? Obviously, someone hoping to have their fan idea 'catch on' with other groups (or even in future continuity - see Standoff's ship classes) then they should heed exactly the advice you folks are giving. You're absolutely right that the idea doesn't "fit" in the normal sense (at the same time, neither does designing technology before you have the story - WC generally goes in the other direction).

(And yes, there *has* been FTL unrelated to the 'jump point' system in Wing Commander - the Hopper Drive 'sloships' in the movie materials and the never-detailed D-Drive from the backstory of the Tri-System. Both of those have 'built in' their exception to the rule rather than attempted to change everything on a larger scale.)

Anyway, I told Miracynonyx100 not to take this too seriously in his greeting thread, and hopefully he's taking this as a trial by fire.

Allright, some individual issues:

My understanding is that the Dallas system listed on the Prophecy map is some sort of running in-joke among the Origin staff. Can't remember exactly what the meaning of it is, maybe they were having a go at Dallas Snell?

Yes, this was a joke about Dallas Snell. It references an org chart he once drew which was just his name pointing to itself (I can't say whether or not it was mean-spirited... you've seen his famous style in the Point of Origin article he wrote...).

And to be honest, I don't think Action Stations should be considered canon. It was a prequel, and most prequels are riddled with errors.

That's specious reasoning, at best - many cats are gray, therefore my cat must be gray. Beyond that, those two statements are wrong in several important ways. First, the prequel is a literary and narrative device with a long and storied history (if not by that particular name) - find me a classicist who would throw out The Iliad or an Indiana Jones fan who would pretend Temple of Doom didn't happen. Second, the idea that a continuity error negates a body of work is a fallacy - something that offers a thousand direct contradictions can still be part of a canon. Neither word means what you are assuming here. Third, by the very nature of the concept fans do not decide (nor are they directly affected) by what is and is not canon. The concept is for people doing professional storytelling in a shared universe, not for fans keeping track of tiny details. Fourth, Action Stations is not a prequel - it's a book-within-a-book that tells an earlier story, but it "actually" exists in 2678, after Wing Commander IV.

For example, in 2634, Banbridge was the highest ranking officer in Confed, and like 33 years later he's a 4-star, and while he may be old, a 90-year old former five star, now four-star Admiral is a bit odd!!! In fact, once you get five stars (which is distinctly an *American* rank), you keep it for the rest of your live unless stripped of rank, retire, or die. Maybe if Banbridge's SON was the Admiral seen in the WC-Books, maybe that would be a bit more plausible.

Banbridge is never a 5-star Admiral. The only 5-star Admirals ("Space Marshals") we see in Wing Commander are Gregarov (Pilgrim Stars) and Tolwyn (briefly, at the end of Wing Commander IV). As in real life, the rank just isn't used (you won't find any five star Admirals in the present day navy, either - the equivalent 'Fleet Admiral' rank still exists, but it was only ever used under specific circumstances for specific reasons during World War II. The Naval Historians can detail that to their hearts content, I'm sure. Simply being in charge of the Navy doesn't make Banbridge a Space Marshal (nor is he ever referred to as such).

But the idea of battleships being the heart of battlegroups is patently ridiculous, it's something out of WW2, definetly not the 27th century. Carriers have been around since WW2, and have established themselves as the heart of the battlegroup-- they're here to stay. Phase shields (at least the kind that need torpedoes to be penetrated) weren't around until the 2650's (That's when the Gilgamesh, Waterloo's, and various other vessels seen in WC2 started to pop up).

There's a nice history of torpedoes in Star*Soldier which explains why this assumption is wrong. And again, what you've done here is *assume* two facts and declare the official story a contradiction because it didn't go with your preconceived notion. At the same time as you can insist that actual-World War II proved the importance of carriers, anyone else can just as easily point out that as romantic as a space navy is, it's certainly *not* the present-day standard for space travel.

However, reading the Jump FAQ, I honestly don't think anything in the WC Movie should be considered canon... The scylla anomaly, the morvan drive (which was never in any of the WC Games, and if it was it wouldn't have been considered that spiffy when the Steltek created it's own jump point),

See the above admonishment on what canon means, it applies here as well. The Morvan ("Hopper") Drive is a bit more crippled than this - in order to use a hopper drive a ship must travel for weeks or even months at sublight speeds until it is outside the gravitational pull of a star system. They're also incredibly dangerous and prone to failure. It's not a magic drive that lets you jump anywhere, as the Steltek seemed to possess.

the Charybdis quasar (quasars to the best of my knowledge are super-energetic galaxies, not phenomena found in our galaxy)

This is true, but it isn't a continuity error in the context of Wing Commander - there's a Wing Commander III series which takes plcae around a quasar, too.

and I'm not sure if even Bill Forstchen's books mentioned antigravitons in Jump-Engine use (it wasn't mentioned in the games)... Action stations shouldn't have been canon either to be honest like I said above, for the reason that like most prequels, they made a number of errors.

The jump material found in The Confederation Handbook (where the antigraviton material comes from) is nearly a word-for-word reprint of the jump physics article in Origin's Wing Commander III-era series bible.

 

[Houkiboshi]

You know... The fact is that I liked the idea as it started... Just couldn't see it as part of the WC continuity

So far so good...

But then you start saying thanthe movie and the books are not part of the canon... That really brings donw any argument

So now what? Arena isn't part of the canon?

I'm sorry, but it's not a very smart path...

I really enjoyed the movie (my 1st WC experience, before I got WC 'My 1st WC game')

So I really have a soft spot for the movie... And to think of what I would do to get my hands on those books...

The books and the movie are as much as part of the canon as any game... Think about the LaFong/Blair debate on WCPedia, do you think WCI & II are not part of the same canon as WC III, IV & V...

I'm sorry, but I don't see any sence on that

 

[Ricochet]

I think that it could be a good idea.
Could be used for a spin off story or something.
Just because it hasn' been done before, doesn't make it automaticaly bad. *Shrugs*

 

[Nomad Terror]

It would probably go well in Privateer Remake!

 

[Miracynonyx100]

Ricochet,

Miracynonyx100: Jesus, tone it down a bit. There's no reason to get so worked up if somebody doesen't like your idea...

I didn't intend to come off as "worked-up". I proposed an idea, and then defended it.


ck9791,

Wing Commander's portrayal of the Terran-Kilrathi war is supposed to be similar to WW2 (the pacific theater) in space. This is why the use of carriers and fighters are first being used to their potential at the beginning of the war and why battlegroups tend to be focused around Battleships in Action Stations, because the abilities of carriers and fighters has not been fully realized yet. This is similar to the time before WW2 where the battleship was still believed to be the most powerful naval vessel, not the carrier.

It is sort of similar to WW2 in space... but not exactly the same thing. For example, we didn't have aircraft-mounted missiles in WW2, that came a lot later (1950's to present). Obviously WC should not be *LITERALLY* interpreted like WW2 in Space!


LeHah,

No, I laugh when someone is obviously stupider than me and doesn't know when to keep their gob shut. While I'm by no means LOAF, I do think of myself as rather educated in things involving WC and I've see this guy's type enough to know when to shake my head and mutter under my breath

First off, I'm not a guy... but back to the point: Was that really necessary to call me stupid?


Bandit LOAF,

Lets all step back a bit, I think that we can have this argument in a more friendly manner.

As others have explained, the physics of the Wing Commander universe are essentially a rule-set rather than an attempt to do realistic space combat. They're designed around enabling the idea of the Pacific War in space - jumping from system to system until you reach the enemy homeworld is island hopping.

I would have to agree, It's not like I'm aggressively pushing my idea or anything; I am defending my position, but I'm not trying to ram my ideas down other's throats or anything. It's just kind of an interesting idea I've thought up.

... at the same time, it ain’t hurtin’ nobody. If someone wants to tell a story about an FTL ship or write up the specs for fun or anything, what's the problem? Obviously, someone hoping to have their fan idea 'catch on' with other groups (or even in future continuity - see Standoff's ship classes) then they should heed exactly the advice you folks are giving. You're absolutely right that the idea doesn't "fit" in the normal sense (at the same time, neither does designing technology before you have the story - WC generally goes in the other direction).

It's largely a concept that I've been fascinated with since I saw the drawing of it in Popular Science once. I just thought it would be an interesting idea to see in Wing-Commander.

I'm certainly not designing this vessel as the perfect spaceship. It has a rather small crew for it's size, it certainly wouldn't have the most powerful shields in the book, it's mostly engines and room for torpedoes and stuff.

(And yes, there *has* been FTL unrelated to the 'jump point' system in Wing Commander - the Hopper Drive 'sloships' in the movie materials and the never-detailed D-Drive from the backstory of the Tri-System. Both of those have 'built in' their exception to the rule rather than attempted to change everything on a larger scale.)

That's why I can see the idea working, if the D-drive can be used in wing-commander, why can't an alcubierre type mechanism?

Anyway, I told Miracynonyx100 not to take this too seriously in his greeting thread, and hopefully he's taking this as a trial by fire.

I rarely take things people say online seriously. Not that I ignore people, but some people get way too emotional.

Yes, this was a joke about Dallas Snell. It references an org chart he once drew which was just his name pointing to itself (I can't say whether or not it was mean-spirited... you've seen his famous style in the Point of Origin article he wrote...).

Are you serious? They put a star system on a chart with no jump point leading to it except one in it's own system over a chart a guy made? Wow.

That's specious reasoning, at best - many cats are gray, therefore my cat must be gray. Beyond that, those two statements are wrong in several important ways. First, the prequel is a literary and narrative device with a long and storied history (if not by that particular name) - find me a classicist who would throw out The Iliad or an Indiana Jones fan who would pretend Temple of Doom didn't happen. Second, the idea that a continuity error negates a body of work is a fallacy - something that offers a thousand direct contradictions can still be part of a canon. Neither word means what you are assuming here. Third, by the very nature of the concept fans do not decide (nor are they directly affected) by what is and is not canon. The concept is for people doing professional storytelling in a shared universe, not for fans keeping track of tiny details. Fourth, Action Stations is not a prequel - it's a book-within-a-book that tells an earlier story, but it "actually" exists in 2678, after Wing Commander IV.

A timeline needs to be accurate and shouldn't have continuity errors. If there are errors, they need to be resolved. The McAuliffe Ambush definetly is an integral part of WC Cannon, it's the event that started the Kilrathi War. I just think William Forstchen's book about it was probably not the best interpretation of the fictional event. There to my knowledge was nothing said about Battleships being integral in the years before 2634 written, prior to the writing of Action Stations. It was added after the fact, and with all due respect, in my opinion, was not a good addition and didn't mesh well with the rest of Wing Commander.

I'm not saying people don't have the right to tell stories in a shared universe. But these people should keep track of the storyline and try not to make errors. If they do, people should correct them, or figure out a way to make the story mesh with the rest of the storyline to maintain continuity. The Battleships in Action Stations largely doesn't mesh with Wing Commander. Dreadnoughts do... and they have some roles that are battleship like, but they're also carriers -- the Confederation-Class, for example, carries 120 fighters, and probably a couple of transports, tankers as well (The Confederation-Class dreadnought even despite being labled a dreadnought, still carries CVS hull-number).

Banbridge is never a 5-star Admiral. The only 5-star Admirals ("Space Marshals") we see in Wing Commander are Gregarov (Pilgrim Stars) and Tolwyn (briefly, at the end of Wing Commander IV). As in real life, the rank just isn't used (you won't find any five star Admirals in the present day navy, either - the equivalent 'Fleet Admiral' rank still exists, but it was only ever used under specific circumstances for specific reasons during World War II. The Naval Historians can detail that to their hearts content, I'm sure. Simply being in charge of the Navy doesn't make Banbridge a Space Marshal (nor is he ever referred to as such).

Actually space-marshall was only used in the WC-4 game, the novel referred to him as a fleet-admiral. Regarding Banbridge's position, if I recall his position was something like Commander in Chief Confed-Fleet, which is essentially the highest ranking Admiral in Confed. I would assume that Confed is so much of a larger Navy than ours, (Which would probably necessitate more flag-officers) that they would have had the highest ranking officer be a Fleet-Admiral or an Admiral of the Fleet (which is equivalent to a Fleet-Admiral)

There's a nice history of torpedoes in Star*Soldier which explains why this assumption is wrong. And again, what you've done here is *assume* two facts and declare the official story a contradiction because it didn't go with your preconceived notion. At the same time as you can insist that actual-World War II proved the importance of carriers, anyone else can just as easily point out that as romantic as a space navy is, it's certainly *not* the present-day standard for space travel.

I would have to read the Star*Soldier bit to actually be able to render an opinion either way.

See the above admonishment on what canon means, it applies here as well. The Morvan ("Hopper") Drive is a bit more crippled than this - in order to use a hopper drive a ship must travel for weeks or even months at sublight speeds until it is outside the gravitational pull of a star system. They're also incredibly dangerous and prone to failure. It's not a magic drive that lets you jump anywhere, as the Steltek seemed to possess.

As I said, generally the best of fiction writers, movie producers/directors, and game-designers make errors continuity-wise as they keep going. It's not malicious, or meant to drive fans crazy -- it just happens. But nonetheless if you're trying to keep a good accurate timeline and maintain good consistency, if you see errors, you fix-em.

The Confederation Handbook (I think that was what it was called) was riddled with errors. It stated that the Iason encountered the Kilrathi for the first time in 2638, when originally it stated that the Iason encountered the Kilrathi for the first time in 2629.

The Wing-Commander Movie also described the first Kilrathi ship seen by Humans was about 4-kilometers long. If I recall correctly in Fleet-Action, it was actually quite a technological hurdle to jump ships above a certain size and mass, which if I recall amounted to around 1,000 meters in length (I have no idea in regards to mass). This ship allegedly, whether in 2629 or 2638 was 4-times that size! It seems highly odd that technology available in either 2629 or 2638 would not be available to jump the smaller (1,580 meter) Hakaga-class supercarriers that were first fielded into active service somewhere between 29 and 39 years later (Depending on Fleet Action occuring in 2667 or 2668)

This is true, but it isn't a continuity error in the context of Wing Commander - there's a Wing Commander III series which takes plcae around a quasar, too.

Touche. However, (And I'm more than willing to admit that I'm wrong) it would seem that what they were describing as a quasar was actually a pulsar (Could be wrong).

The jump material found in The Confederation Handbook (where the antigraviton material comes from) is nearly a word-for-word reprint of the jump physics article in Origin's Wing Commander III-era series bible.

I've read the Confederation Handbook... however I have not read nor seen the WC-III series bible. The only bible I've read, was the King-James Bible as a kid (Well, parts of it: I'm not a big fan of it though -- it has *LOTS* of contradictions... )


Victoria Kent

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I think you should know that it is not seen very kindly here when posters just declare some parts of the WC franchise non-canonical. Sure, many of us did have gripes with some points in some WC products (I sure had) but you will be amazed how for almost everything you perceive as a discrepancy an explanation can be found, even though you will maybe not always grasp it at the first time. But the forum stand is that every official WC product is an equal part of the WC continuity, regardless of whether all fans like it or not or if there is a seemingly simpler explanation, like "They made a printing error". At least, that's how I experienced it.

And I highly recommend reading StarSoldier, it's a very good manual.

 

[Ricochet]

First off, I'm not a guy

hehe, i found it funny that no one figured that, even beside the signatureat the end

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Are you serious? They put a star system on a chart with no jump point leading to it except one in it's own system over a chart a guy made? Wow.

The manuals and such are full of similar "in-jokes" - from Colonel Chris Roberts in Claw Marks to (well deserved) references to hard-working fans in Star*Soldier. Understanding where it came from is just trivia, really - it's good fodder for a future story (ours or someone else's) as to what that star system means. Is it accessible only via Hopper Drive? Was it a regular star system that got separated from the rest of the galaxy when a sun went nova or somesuch? There's some good possibilities, even if it was originally put in as a joke about an over-eager project lead.

A timeline needs to be accurate and shouldn't have continuity errors. If there are errors, they need to be resolved. The McAuliffe Ambush definetly is an integral part of WC Cannon, it's the event that started the Kilrathi War. I just think William Forstchen's book about it was probably not the best interpretation of the fictional event. There to my knowledge was nothing said about Battleships being integral in the years before 2634 written, prior to the writing of Action Stations. It was added after the fact, and with all due respect, in my opinion, was not a good addition and didn't mesh well with the rest of Wing Commander.

I'm not saying people don't have the right to tell stories in a shared universe. But these people should keep track of the storyline and try not to make errors. If they do, people should correct them, or figure out a way to make the story mesh with the rest of the storyline to maintain continuity. The Battleships in Action Stations largely doesn't mesh with Wing Commander. Dreadnoughts do... and they have some roles that are battleship like, but they're also carriers -- the Confederation-Class, for example, carries 120 fighters, and probably a couple of transports, tankers as well (The Confederation-Class dreadnought even despite being labled a dreadnought, still carries CVS hull-number).

Well, I agree and I disagree. I don't especially like the overblown World War II stuff that he did in Action Stations... but I also don't think it's actually a continuity error. It's important for us to distinguish 'I don't really like this' from 'this is directly contradictory'. Action Stations may be the former, but it isn't an error. The novel is clearly moving towards the continuity we know and love - explaining why carriers rather than battleships are important (twenty years before WC1). It's also worth noting that there's a *lot* of talk about "battleships" in the original Wing Commander's dialogue, so it's not entirely some new concept Forstchen tractored in from Pearl Harbor.

As for dreadnoughts... they seem to be a logical outgrowth of Action Stations - a mating of pre-war battleships and war-necessary carriers. See also the Concordia supercruisers from the movie... spacegoing battleships, to be sure, with only a small fighter complement. Also, note that the 'CVS' designation is *only* ever seen on the Concordia... it's possible that the 'S' is for dreadnaught.

Actually space-marshall was only used in the WC-4 game, the novel referred to him as a fleet-admiral. Regarding Banbridge's position, if I recall his position was something like Commander in Chief Confed-Fleet, which is essentially the highest ranking Admiral in Confed. I would assume that Confed is so much of a larger Navy than ours, (Which would probably necessitate more flag-officers) that they would have had the highest ranking officer be a Fleet-Admiral or an Admiral of the Fleet (which is equivalent to a Fleet-Admiral)

The 'Fleet Admiral' rank in the US Navy was created as part of a particular chain of events. When the United States allied with England during World War II, they created a 'General of the Army' (5-star General) rank. This was because the British had a five star 'Field Marshal' rank and the American military needed an equal footing for their combined operations.

... but then the US Navy couldn't be run by Admirals outranked by the Generals running the Army, so the 'Fleet Admiral' rank was created for them. Both ranks still 'exist', but in all likelyhood neither will ever be used again. There's no *need* for such a 'super rank' under normal circumstances because of the concept of seniority. The military (modern or otherwise) isn't a tiered system of ranks - it's a system of ranks *plus* seniority measured by time in grade. The 4-Star Admiral who's held the rank for the longest (Banbridge) outranks the others. This is something the military measures very exactly, down to knowing that an Ensign comissioned several minutes before another would technically be the senior officer between the two.

Banbridge's position is "CICCONFEDFLT", but he is only ever called Admiral (four star). Now, I do think there's a story to be told here. After all, why is Sandra Gregarov a Space Marshal in 2654? Did the Congress disapprove of Banbridge and decide to promote someone above him to run the war? Perhaps the Firekkans or some other wartime ally had a 'Field Marshal' style rank that needed to be equivocated like the WW2 story?

I would have to read the Star*Soldier bit to actually be able to render an opinion either way.

Well... read it! http://images.ea.com/ea/arcade/draft2cRGB.pdf The torpedoes part is in one of the Letters to the Editor. Even if you have no interest in Arena, Star*Soldier is definately a manual designed after our own hearts.

As I said, generally the best of fiction writers, movie producers/directors, and game-designers make errors continuity-wise as they keep going. It's not malicious, or meant to drive fans crazy -- it just happens. But nonetheless if you're trying to keep a good accurate timeline and maintain good consistency, if you see errors, you fix-em.

The Confederation Handbook (I think that was what it was called) was riddled with errors. It stated that the Iason encountered the Kilrathi for the first time in 2638, when originally it stated that the Iason encountered the Kilrathi for the first time in 2629.

The Handbook bit is a sad story - there was originally a line in the movie where Paladin talks about having been on the Iason (it's still in the novel). Blair says something along the lines of that no one survived and it's eventually revealed that Paladin was captured and in a Kilrathi prison. In order to fit Paladin's existing backstory, Chris McCubbin moved the Iason stuff up...

... but he left an out! Look closely at the Iason's history at the bottom of the page - it was an explorer until 2629, when it underwent an major overhaul into a military support ship for some reason.

The Wing-Commander Movie also described the first Kilrathi ship seen by Humans was about 4-kilometers long. If I recall correctly in Fleet-Action, it was actually quite a technological hurdle to jump ships above a certain size and mass, which if I recall amounted to around 1,000 meters in length (I have no idea in regards to mass). This ship allegedly, whether in 2629 or 2638 was 4-times that size! It seems highly odd that technology available in either 2629 or 2638 would not be available to jump the smaller (1,580 meter) Hakaga-class supercarriers that were first fielded into active service somewhere between 29 and 39 years later (Depending on Fleet Action occuring in 2667 or 2668)

The movie intro is something of an oddity - it wasn't scripted, it was done much later by folks at Digital Anvil when they realized the movie needed a quickie introduction to the universe. I think it's a brilliant bit of work, but the 'continuity' expressed *doesn't* direcctly match the stuff done for the novel and the Handbook; The Confed Handbook doesn't list any Kilrathi warships that large.

That said, this is an easy 'fix' since we have no real idea what's being described. Maybe it's a space station or a ship built only for in-system use. Beyond that, Wing Commander IV establishes that there are different sizes of jump lines/points - and that huge ships like the Vesuvius can operate travelling only through the big ones. It may be a ship designed for that purpose.

Fleet Action is 2668 - it's on several manual timelines.

Touche. However, (And I'm more than willing to admit that I'm wrong) it would seem that what they were describing as a quasar was actually a pulsar (Could be wrong).

Wing Commander III actually uses both separately and with different effects. There's a pulsar at Blackmane which causes damage when you leave the shadow of a planet... and a quasar at Loki which blocks transmissions.

I've read the Confederation Handbook... however I have not read nor seen the WC-III series bible. The only bible I've read, was the King-James Bible as a kid (Well, parts of it: I'm not a big fan of it though -- it has *LOTS* of contradictions... )

Hehe - well, parts of it are a prequel...

Here's the 1996 series bible, part of our project to preserve development documentation: http://download.wcnews.com/files/documents/WC_Bible_High.zip

 

[ck9791]

What the hell?

ck9791,


It is sort of similar to WW2 in space... but not exactly the same thing. For example, we didn't have aircraft-mounted missiles in WW2, that came a lot later (1950's to present). Obviously WC should not be *LITERALLY* interpreted like WW2 in Space!

I did not say WC was literally WW2 in space, for one thing the fighters in WC do not have props on the front! I said WC was similar to WW2 in space, here is my exact post:

Wing Commander's portrayal of the Terran-Kilrathi war is supposed to be similar to WW2 (the pacific theater) in space. This is why the use of carriers and fighters are first being used to their potential at the beginning of the war and why battlegroups tend to be focused around Battleships in Action Stations, because the abilities of carriers and fighters has not been fully realized yet. This is similar to the time before WW2 where the battleship was still believed to be the most powerful naval vessel, not the carrier.

I also think WC use of jump points and jump drives fits with the idea of the war being WW2 in space. Having fleets jump between systems in order to advance into enemy territory could be a reflection of the island hopping campaign used by the allies in the pacific theater, where not every island was taken, only important or key islands with others being bypassed or isolated.

I was referring to WC showing carrier based tactics on both the Terran and Kilrathi sides, similar to WW2 where American and Japanese naval tactics revolved around the carrier. I did not say that WC was using WW2 technology.

 

[t.c.cgi]

A timeline needs to be accurate and shouldn't have continuity errors. If there are errors, they need to be resolved.

Don't miss the forest for the trees, here. It's easy to nitpick something to death, but ultimately the goal is to share a good story, not create some perfect, flawless fictional universe that holds together better than real-world history.

 

[Miracynonyx100]

Bandit LOAF

The manuals and such are full of similar "in-jokes" - from Colonel Chris Roberts in Claw Marks to (well deserved) references to hard-working fans in Star*Soldier. Understanding where it came from is just trivia, really - it's good fodder for a future story (ours or someone else's) as to what that star system means. Is it accessible only via Hopper Drive? Was it a regular star system that got separated from the rest of the galaxy when a sun went nova or somesuch? There's some good possibilities, even if it was originally put in as a joke about an over-eager project lead.

Yeah, you're right. I think Chris Roberts even appeared as the Broadsword pilot who tractored Blair in in the movie...

Well, I agree and I disagree. I don't especially like the overblown World War II stuff that he did in Action Stations... but I also don't think it's actually a continuity error. It's important for us to distinguish 'I don't really like this' from 'this is directly contradictory'. Action Stations may be the former, but it isn't an error. The novel is clearly moving towards the continuity we know and love - explaining why carriers rather than battleships are important (twenty years before WC1). It's also worth noting that there's a *lot* of talk about "battleships" in the original Wing Commander's dialogue, so it's not entirely some new concept Forstchen tractored in from Pearl Harbor.

I would agree with you about the overblown WWII stuff in Action Stations, but I also consider it to be a continuity error, as there didn't seem to be any references to true Battleships in WC1 (Dreadnoughts were covered in WC1, WC2 and WC3 though, but not the traditional Battleship designation)

When "battleships" were discussed in WC1, they were largely talking about big capships. Often they were talking about Cruisers or Destroyers, while they are no doubt ships that do battle, hence battleships, they are not what we would typically call a battleship in terms of Naval Designations.

As for dreadnoughts... they seem to be a logical outgrowth of Action Stations - a mating of pre-war battleships and war-necessary carriers. See also the Concordia supercruisers from the movie... spacegoing battleships, to be sure, with only a small fighter complement. Also, note that the 'CVS' designation is *only* ever seen on the Concordia... it's possible that the 'S' is for dreadnaught.

Not really. Even the Battleships in Action Stations had their own fighter compliments if I recall correctly. They weren't just all guns armor and shields...

Are you sure that CVS was never used in referrence to any other capship in WC?

he 'Fleet Admiral' rank in the US Navy was created as part of a particular chain of events. When the United States allied with England during World War II, they created a 'General of the Army' (5-star General) rank. This was because the British had a five star 'Field Marshal' rank and the American military needed an equal footing for their combined operations.

I didn't actually know that Even then, though, WC did have some british naval elements to it as well. If I recall, Banbridge was at least once referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet, which is the same as a fleet-admiral.

... but then the US Navy couldn't be run by Admirals outranked by the Generals running the Army, so the 'Fleet Admiral' rank was created for them. Both ranks still 'exist', but in all likelyhood neither will ever be used again. There's no *need* for such a 'super rank' under normal circumstances because of the concept of seniority. The military (modern or otherwise) isn't a tiered system of ranks - it's a system of ranks *plus* seniority measured by time in grade. The 4-Star Admiral who's held the rank for the longest (Banbridge) outranks the others. This is something the military measures very exactly, down to knowing that an Ensign comissioned several minutes before another would technically be the senior officer between the two.

That is only partially accurate... if Banbridge was CICCONFEDFLT, that is a TITLE, even if he was a 4-star, and the guy below him was a 4-star, and that guy was a 4-star, he doesn't just have the right to order him because he served longer, but his title is higher than the titles of the Admirals below him hypothetically. If afterwords, Banbridge became the Commander of the Third Fleet, even if he served like 70 years in the Navy, his title is subserviant to whoever holds the title CICCONFEDFLT, that's why I ask why was he bumped down?

Banbridge's position is "CICCONFEDFLT", but he is only ever called Admiral (four star). Now, I do think there's a story to be told here. After all, why is Sandra Gregarov a Space Marshal in 2654? Did the Congress disapprove of Banbridge and decide to promote someone above him to run the war? Perhaps the Firekkans or some other wartime ally had a 'Field Marshal' style rank that needed to be equivocated like the WW2 story?

I thought Banbridge was at least once referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet, or something like that which is equivalent to a fleet-admiral.

Regarding Space Marshall Sandra Gregarov, I didn't know there was any mention of a Space Marshall until Wing Commander 4 (game)... Still I don't have the slightest clue why she would be posted above Banbridge. Banbridge seemed to be for the most part a highly successful Admiral, and I do find it odd that someone would take over in his place.

Well... read it! http://images.ea.com/ea/arcade/draft2cRGB.pdf The torpedoes part is in one of the Letters to the Editor. Even if you have no interest in Arena, Star*Soldier is definately a manual designed after our own hearts.

For all I know, they may have just taken what was in Fleet Action and basically re-iterated it. Also, what's a proton-bomb, and why in god's name would the Ranger-Class be listed as the Yorktown-Class?

The Handbook bit is a sad story - there was originally a line in the movie where Paladin talks about having been on the Iason (it's still in the novel). Blair says something along the lines of that no one survived and it's eventually revealed that Paladin was captured and in a Kilrathi prison. In order to fit Paladin's existing backstory, Chris McCubbin moved the Iason stuff up...

No offense but that strikes me as a monstrously large continuity error... it was flatly said that it happened in 2629...

... but he left an out! Look closely at the Iason's history at the bottom of the page - it was an explorer until 2629, when it underwent an major overhaul into a military support ship for some reason.

Not a very good out... if I recall the Iason was completely destroyed with the loss of all hands -- in 2629. There could have been another Iason, but it wouldn't have been THE Iason... and thus would be in conflict with what Taggart said.

The movie intro is something of an oddity - it wasn't scripted, it was done much later by folks at Digital Anvil when they realized the movie needed a quickie introduction to the universe. I think it's a brilliant bit of work, but the 'continuity' expressed *doesn't* direcctly match the stuff done for the novel and the Handbook; The Confed Handbook doesn't list any Kilrathi warships that large.

I would have never known it wasn't scripted. Even despite that, the Kilrathi capships in the movie looked NOTHING like the capships later on.

That said, this is an easy 'fix' since we have no real idea what's being described. Maybe it's a space station or a ship built only for in-system use. Beyond that, Wing Commander IV establishes that there are different sizes of jump lines/points - and that huge ships like the Vesuvius can operate travelling only through the big ones. It may be a ship designed for that purpose.

True, but it sounded like they were looking at a vessel. Consider that the first time the Iason spotted the kilrathi, they saw a ship of unidentifiable origin, which shortly after blew it up.

Regarding the jump-drive issue, the advances made to jump the Hakaga-Class carriers was largely about the ability to simply jump a ship of a given size and mass. The jump field extends out only to about 500 meters in radius, meaning you'd only be typically able to jump a vessel of no more than 1,000 meters in length, and/or width without exponential increases in energy required to make the jump. To put it simple, without the technological advances made in Jump-drive technology, the Hakaga wouldn't have been able to jump period regardless of how much energy the jump-line had in it.

The issue about jump-lines is different, everytime a jump is made some energy is taken out of the jump-line with time required to recharge. Some jumplines do not simply have the energy to jump a gigantic ship through them, but that's actually another issue. The Hakaga may have figured out ways around that problem additionally, but the major issue required to jump large ships was the size and mass of the ship, and the radius of projected jump-field vs. power consumption required to do it.

Fleet Action is 2668 - it's on several manual timelines.

Thank you.

Wing Commander III actually uses both separately and with different effects. There's a pulsar at Blackmane which causes damage when you leave the shadow of a planet... and a quasar at Loki which blocks transmissions.

Is this both in the game? Or was this in the Novel... because I don't remember taking any damage in the Blackmane system from just flying around and doing nothing. I should note that a Pulsar's powerful bursts of energy could disrupt communications as well.

Hehe - well, parts of it are a prequel...

Here's the 1996 series bible, part of our project to preserve development documentation: http://download.wcnews.com/files/doc...Bible_High.zip

Regarding the jump-physics articles written, I stand corrected. (I still don't quite get how anti-gravitons would rip a hole in space rather than simply push a ship away from the anti-graviton field...)

Hmmmm... I thought the Custers Carnival battle occured in 2649 not 2644 (The Claw first flew that year)

Interestingly, it clearly mentions that the ships shields have seriously underwent some major changes, and can't be taken out with nothing less than a torpedo. Considering this seemed as a suprize to Cpt Blair, and it did seem to indicate that this was not so anytime before, and the fact that the WC Bible also stated that phase shields were first possessed by the Kilrathi and the Confed at first couldn't figure out how to crack through them until they built a Torpedo. These sort of look like glaring inconsistencies with Action Stations.

Additionally the "Bible" when discussing Kilrathi Culture refers to Coups and Assassinations being commonplace political maneuvers, not something incomprehensible like in Fleet Action (Which was one of the few errors in Fleet Action)


Vicky Kent

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, you're right. I think Chris Roberts even appeared as the Broadsword pilot who tractored Blair in in the movie...

Yup! He has all sorts of cameos - he's also the Black Lance officer who "couldn't go on" at the end of WC4, the voice of one of the Victory's escorts in WC3 and the 'body' of Blair in the 'motion capture' sequences in WC2. Shotglass mentions 'Colonel Roberts' in one of the Secret Missions, too. (And to take that reference even further, Peter Telep named the rescuing Broadsword pilot 'Chris McCubbin', after the author of various WC guides... at the time he didn't know it was Chris Roberts' cameo.)

I would agree with you about the overblown WWII stuff in Action Stations, but I also consider it to be a continuity error, as there didn't seem to be any references to true Battleships in WC1 (Dreadnoughts were covered in WC1, WC2 and WC3 though, but not the traditional Battleship designation)

When "battleships" were discussed in WC1, they were largely talking about big capships. Often they were talking about Cruisers or Destroyers, while they are no doubt ships that do battle, hence battleships, they are not what we would typically call a battleship in terms of Naval Designations.

None of this is a continuity *error*, though - it's just continuity you don't like. It's not really much of a leap to go from a space navy with destroyers, cruisers and dreadnoughts to one with destroyers, cruisers, dreadnoughts and battleships. Especially when the entire point of the story is that carriers are replacing battleships decades before we enter the picture. Heck, in 'real life' dreadnoughts are a *type* of battleship! (... and a cheap technical correction: no dreadnoughts in WC2!)

Not really. Even the Battleships in Action Stations had their own fighter compliments if I recall correctly. They weren't just all guns armor and shields...

They didn't - that would be counter to the point of the book. Action Stations is mirroring the pre-WW2 status of the US Navy... with an 'old guard' of battleship Admirals running the show and refusing to accept that air power and carriers will be important in the future. Then the enemy comes along and proves the new technology with a surprise attack...

Are you sure that CVS was never used in referrence to any other capship in WC?

Yes, absolutely sure. Despite the occasional fan obsession with them, WC actually uses such designations fairly sparingly - we see CV, CVE, CVS, CVA, CVX and LCA. At least half of these (LCA, CVS, CVX and arguably CV) refer to something other than their 'real life' equivalent.

I didn't actually know that Even then, though, WC did have some british naval elements to it as well. If I recall, Banbridge was at least once referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet, which is the same as a fleet-admiral.

I didn't actually know that Even then, though, WC did have some british naval elements to it as well. If I recall, Banbridge was at least once referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet, which is the same as a fleet-admiral.

You don't need to look any further than the 'TCS Victory' to find a little bit of the Royal Navy in Wing Commander. Banbridge is only ever 'Admiral', never Fleet Admiral.

That is only partially accurate... if Banbridge was CICCONFEDFLT, that is a TITLE, even if he was a 4-star, and the guy below him was a 4-star, and that guy was a 4-star, he doesn't just have the right to order him because he served longer, but his title is higher than the titles of the Admirals below him hypothetically. If afterwords, Banbridge became the Commander of the Third Fleet, even if he served like 70 years in the Navy, his title is subserviant to whoever holds the title CICCONFEDFLT, that's why I ask why was he bumped down?

That's another tier of the system that we can assume everyone knows about - Dr. Forstchen likes to explain the chain of command aspect with the story about the Ensign unknowingly becoming commander of the 18th century warship... over and over and over.

We don't really know what happened to Banbridge. As mentioned, there was a 5-star Space Marshal/Admiral of the Fleet in 2654 (Gregarov)... and that the CinC was an Admiral named Noragami in Fleet Action. Consider the Admiral from an academic standpoint, though - we're told he's a great guy because he was Tolwyn's mentor/sponsor (is that really a good thing, even?)... but we very rarely see him do anything. We're told he planned Operation Backlash... but then also that he disagreed with the aspects that made it a huge success (rescuing Tarawa).

Regarding Space Marshall Sandra Gregarov, I didn't know there was any mention of a Space Marshall until Wing Commander 4 (game)... Still I don't have the slightest clue why she would be posted above Banbridge. Banbridge seemed to be for the most part a highly successful Admiral, and I do find it odd that someone would take over in his place.

Replacing your top commander is a pretty common thing to do - think of Lincoln going through general after general until he got to Grant, or even Bush having changed generals in charge of Iraq several times now. Those were all over the course of a war that went on for a few years... and as great as an admiral as Banbridge may be, the fact is that he didn't really make any progress fighting the Kilrathi. It's doubtful that the President or the Congress would be willing to sit by for three decades and two trillion casualties without doing what every government ever does and blaming their chosen leader.

For all I know, they may have just taken what was in Fleet Action and basically re-iterated it. Also, what's a proton-bomb, and why in god's name would the Ranger-Class be listed as the Yorktown-Class?

I believe proton bomb refers to the dumb-firing "proton torpedoes" seen in Privateer. Ranger-class was never 'canon'... or even stated anywhere. It's something fans came up with (I should know, I was the fan who came up with it).

True, but it sounded like they were looking at a vessel. Consider that the first time the Iason spotted the kilrathi, they saw a ship of unidentifiable origin, which shortly after blew it up.

I don't think it's an audio clip from the Iason incident... nor is it necessarily describing a ship. Here's the actual transcript:

PILOT: Coming up on the far side... looks like maybe three or four kilometers long.

CONTROL: Copy that Sparrow. Proceed.

PlLOT: lt's like nothing l've ever seen before. Wait. Something's going on here. [Radio static]

Regarding the jump-drive issue, the advances made to jump the Hakaga-Class carriers was largely about the ability to simply jump a ship of a given size and mass. The jump field extends out only to about 500 meters in radius, meaning you'd only be typically able to jump a vessel of no more than 1,000 meters in length, and/or width without exponential increases in energy required to make the jump. To put it simple, without the technological advances made in Jump-drive technology, the Hakaga wouldn't have been able to jump period regardless of how much energy the jump-line had in it.

The issue about jump-lines is different, everytime a jump is made some energy is taken out of the jump-line with time required to recharge. Some jumplines do not simply have the energy to jump a gigantic ship through them, but that's actually another issue. The Hakaga may have figured out ways around that problem additionally, but the major issue required to jump large ships was the size and mass of the ship, and the radius of projected jump-field vs. power consumption required to do it.

The problem *must* have been solved... since the Kilrathi put 22 kilometer-long dreadnaughts into action in 2669 (and the Confederation had apparently been working on a similarly-sized Behemoth weapon for a decade).

I would have never known it wasn't scripted. Even despite that, the Kilrathi capships in the movie looked NOTHING like the capships later on.

I would argue that there really wasn't a solid design concept for Kilrathi ships - the 'round' capital ships of Wing Commander 2 look nothing like the angular ones in Wing Commander 3 (and neither of them really look like the utile ones in Wing Commander 1).

Is this both in the game? Or was this in the Novel... because I don't remember taking any damage in the Blackmane system from just flying around and doing nothing. I should note that a Pulsar's powerful bursts of energy could disrupt communications as well.

Both are from the game - I don't think either show up in the novel (Blackmane's pulsar shows up only in the losing version of the series, where you're escorting a convoy through its shadow).

Hmmmm... I thought the Custers Carnival battle occured in 2649 not 2644 (The Claw first flew that year)

Yes, this was a mistake made starting with Armada's 'Voices of War' manual. You may remember that Claw Marks listed two separate events - the Tiger's Claw taking out a Kilrathi invasion forces while it was undergoing testing with a skeleton crew (in 2644) and then the Tiger's Claw saving the day at G'wriss (Custer's Carnival in 2649). Voices of War accidentally mixed the two events together... and the error wasn't fixed until Star*Soldier updated the timeline this year!

Interestingly, it clearly mentions that the ships shields have seriously underwent some major changes, and can't be taken out with nothing less than a torpedo. Considering this seemed as a suprize to Cpt Blair, and it did seem to indicate that this was not so anytime before, and the fact that the WC Bible also stated that phase shields were first possessed by the Kilrathi and the Confed at first couldn't figure out how to crack through them until they built a Torpedo. These sort of look like glaring inconsistencies with Action Stations.

Additionally the "Bible" when discussing Kilrathi Culture refers to Coups and Assassinations being commonplace political maneuvers, not something incomprehensible like in Fleet Action (Which was one of the few errors in Fleet Action)

To be clear, the bible is a historical document... but it isn't continuity. The published stuff counts, the behind-the-screens stuff doesn't. It's more valuable for understanding what was going through the heads of the people in charge of the WC universe at a particular point in time... but you'll find that a whole lot of stuff was ultimately done differently in the canon (Blair's callsign, the Victory's fighter complement, the Concordia's designation, etc.).

 

[LeHah]

Heres the thing that doesn't fit when it comes to Miracynonyx's entire arguement. The complaint (that there are continuity errors) and arguement (that some things need to be changed) is based entirely on things that don't fit in a personal understanding of continuity - but the things that Miracynonyx has suggested don't fit at all. S/He's aware that there is a canonized system, but being aware doesn't mean they percieve that it reaches beyond themselves.

In short - don't believe everything you think.

The idea that "some things are more legitimate than others" may work for Star Wars fans but it doesn't work here. The people on this board have repeatedly seen this type of behavior before. All offense intended - but its old hat. The fact that you don't like something doesn't affect anything greater than you and the idea that you can personally pick and choose what you want to support does absolutely nothing to affect continuity. If anything, its more silly than narrow-minded.

Kick back, enjoy yourself, accept that everything you're thinking of has been addressed years ago.

 

[Bob McDob]

Kick back, enjoy yourself, accept that everything you're thinking of has been addressed years ago.

In that case, the forums might as well be shut down right now, with key posts shuffled away into a "holy writ" section of the CIC.

 

[LeHah]

In that case, the forums might as well be shut down right now, with key posts shuffled away into a "holy writ" section of the CIC.

You're confusing general discussion with pointed topics that get dredged up time and time again.

 

[Miracynonyx100]

Yup! He has all sorts of cameos - he's also the Black Lance officer who "couldn't go on" at the end of WC4, the voice of one of the Victory's escorts in WC3 and the 'body' of Blair in the 'motion capture' sequences in WC2. Shotglass mentions 'Colonel Roberts' in one of the Secret Missions, too. (And to take that reference even further, Peter Telep named the rescuing Broadsword pilot 'Chris McCubbin', after the author of various WC guides... at the time he didn't know it was Chris Roberts' cameo.)

Yeah, I remember that part in WC4 (I couldn't go on!)

None of this is a continuity *error*, though - it's just continuity you don't like. It's not really much of a leap to go from a space navy with destroyers, cruisers and dreadnoughts to one with destroyers, cruisers, dreadnoughts and battleships. Especially when the entire point of the story is that carriers are replacing battleships decades before we enter the picture. Heck, in 'real life' dreadnoughts are a *type* of battleship! (... and a cheap technical correction: no dreadnoughts in WC2!)

I may disagree with it because it doesn't mesh with stuff later in WC. In WC-1 there was never any suggestion that the Carrier concept was a new concept. Except maybe that the 2640 era carriers were designed to operate on their own when previous ones (as seen in later games oddly) didn't... If anything, WC-2 starts to go more towards battleships with the Confed-Dreadnought, not before.

Regarding your statement about there being no dreadnoughts in WC-2, I don't know where you got that one from... when talking about the Phase-Transit Cannon it refers to it forming the keep of the Confederation-Class Dreadnought, the largest vessel to be able to mount such a weapon...

They didn't - that would be counter to the point of the book. Action Stations is mirroring the pre-WW2 status of the US Navy... with an 'old guard' of battleship Admirals running the show and refusing to accept that air power and carriers will be important in the future. Then the enemy comes along and proves the new technology with a surprise attack...

Actually... even real battleships had a small airwing... usually only four planes or so, but nonetheless.

And if I remember during WC-AS during a heated battle there was a mention of one of the Battleships having a fighter compliment, or something about it having fighters on board, or launching fighers or something. (I'm not 100% sure, but I think I remember reading that)

Yes, absolutely sure. Despite the occasional fan obsession with them, WC actually uses such designations fairly sparingly - we see CV, CVE, CVS, CVA, CVX and LCA. At least half of these (LCA, CVS, CVX and arguably CV) refer to something other than their 'real life' equivalent.

Wow, I would have almost sworn the Bengal-Class ships were CVS's. As for fan obsession with them, I think you're more qualified in that area.

You don't need to look any further than the 'TCS Victory' to find a little bit of the Royal Navy in Wing Commander. Banbridge is only ever 'Admiral', never Fleet Admiral.

Victory is a Royal-Navy kind of name. I still thought I once heard of Banbridge being referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet.

That's another tier of the system that we can assume everyone knows about - Dr. Forstchen likes to explain the chain of command aspect with the story about the Ensign unknowingly becoming commander of the 18th century warship... over and over and over.

Are you talking about Jason Bondarevsky? The 25 year old LCDR who ends up in command of the Tarawa?

We don't really know what happened to Banbridge. As mentioned, there was a 5-star Space Marshal/Admiral of the Fleet in 2654 (Gregarov)... and that the CinC was an Admiral named Noragami in Fleet Action. Consider the Admiral from an academic standpoint, though - we're told he's a great guy because he was Tolwyn's mentor/sponsor (is that really a good thing, even?)... but we very rarely see him do anything. We're told he planned Operation Backlash... but then also that he disagreed with the aspects that made it a huge success (rescuing Tarawa).

Replacing your top commander is a pretty common thing to do - think of Lincoln going through general after general until he got to Grant, or even Bush having changed generals in charge of Iraq several times now. Those were all over the course of a war that went on for a few years... and as great as an admiral as Banbridge may be, the fact is that he didn't really make any progress fighting the Kilrathi. It's doubtful that the President or the Congress would be willing to sit by for three decades and two trillion casualties without doing what every government ever does and blaming their chosen leader.

When was Space-Marshall Gregarov mentioned in the game script... I honestly don't remember it. Was it in the game documentation or something?

I guess you could be right about Banbridge getting sacked.

I believe proton bomb refers to the dumb-firing "proton torpedoes" seen in Privateer. Ranger-class was never 'canon'... or even stated anywhere. It's something fans came up with (I should know, I was the fan who came up with it).

You actually came up with the Ranger-class designation? Then how come Forstschen refers to the Ranger-Class carriers?

I don't think it's an audio clip from the Iason incident... nor is it necessarily describing a ship. Here's the actual transcript:

PILOT: Coming up on the far side... looks like maybe three or four kilometers long.

CONTROL: Copy that Sparrow. Proceed.

PlLOT: lt's like nothing l've ever seen before. Wait. Something's going on here. [Radio static]

Something going on sounds like it's about to fire on them... I could be wrong but it sounds like the Iason incident.

The problem *must* have been solved... since the Kilrathi put 22 kilometer-long dreadnaughts into action in 2669 (and the Confederation had apparently been working on a similarly-sized Behemoth weapon for a decade).

Keep in mind, the Behemoth began design in 2659 about -- that's still 30 years after the Iason incident. I assume the technology to jump such a large ship would have been developed as PART of the Behemoth program or just slightly before. And I would have assumed the Kilrathi development would have started around 2662 when they began constructing the Hakaga's... the Dreadnought would have been an outgrowth of that technology -- putting it on steroids more or less.

If the technology existed before 2659, you would have probably have seen a number of 1,000 meter long ships in WC or WC2. In SO, the Plunkett is 1,200 meters

I would argue that there really wasn't a solid design concept for Kilrathi ships - the 'round' capital ships of Wing Commander 2 look nothing like the angular ones in Wing Commander 3 (and neither of them really look like the utile ones in Wing Commander 1).

I would disagree. WC-3 and WC-4 had already been created. They could have simply incorporated WC-3 like characteristics onto older-designs (The Krant was very fang-like, and the Fralthi had prongs on the front like the Fralthi II class)

Both are from the game - I don't think either show up in the novel (Blackmane's pulsar shows up only in the losing version of the series, where you're escorting a convoy through its shadow).

I never played the losing version of the series. How quickly do you take damage when you get outside of the shadow?

Yes, this was a mistake made starting with Armada's 'Voices of War' manual. You may remember that Claw Marks listed two separate events - the Tiger's Claw taking out a Kilrathi invasion forces while it was undergoing testing with a skeleton crew (in 2644) and then the Tiger's Claw saving the day at G'wriss (Custer's Carnival in 2649). Voices of War accidentally mixed the two events together... and the error wasn't fixed until Star*Soldier updated the timeline this year!

Oh, okay then.

To be clear, the bible is a historical document... but it isn't continuity. The published stuff counts, the behind-the-screens stuff doesn't. It's more valuable for understanding what was going through the heads of the people in charge of the WC universe at a particular point in time... but you'll find that a whole lot of stuff was ultimately done differently in the canon (Blair's callsign, the Victory's fighter complement, the Concordia's designation, etc.).

So, are any parts of the Bible Canon?


Miracynonyx100

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I may disagree with it because it doesn't mesh with stuff later in WC. In WC-1 there was never any suggestion that the Carrier concept was a new concept. Except maybe that the 2640 era carriers were designed to operate on their own when previous ones (as seen in later games oddly) didn't... If anything, WC-2 starts to go more towards battleships with the Confed-Dreadnought, not before.

Well, two points here. One, carriers *aren't* a new concept in Action Stations - in fact, Confed's carrier fleet has been around so long as of the novel that many of the ships are completely obsolete. The point of the story is that naval doctrine is being built around battleships rather than carriers, not that the carrier is some new invention. Carriers have served for at least half a century before Action Stations in all sorts of supporting roles - anti-shipping, reconaissance, space-to-ground strikes, amphibious assault coverage, etc. That's all straight from the novel. Two, Wing Commander I *does* suggest that carriers are new - or, at least, that the only carrier we see in the game is. The manual goes out of its way to point out that the Tiger's Claw entered service ten years after the war started (and so ten years after Action Stations is set). If anything, the real 'contradiction' would be had Action Stations done the opposite of what you're complaining about - suggested that the Confederation had ships like the Tiger's Claw ten years before the continuity specifically established them.

Regarding your statement about there being no dreadnoughts in WC-2, I don't know where you got that one from... when talking about the Phase-Transit Cannon it refers to it forming the keep of the Confederation-Class Dreadnought, the largest vessel to be able to mount such a weapon...

Ack, I'm very sorry - I meant WC1... the first Wing Commander dreadnought introduced is the Sivar, in The Secret Missions. Like the battleships in Action Stations, they were a later addition to the universe.

Actually... even real battleships had a small airwing... usually only four planes or so, but nonetheless.

I don't think that can possibly be true - the several-hundred-year history of the battleship overlaps only briefly with that of the airplane. The Iowa-class (briefly) carrying three seaplanes is in no way a standard feature among battleships... any more so than you might insist that submarines have air wings because the Japanese folded up little floatplane kits on some of theirs.

And if I remember during WC-AS during a heated battle there was a mention of one of the Battleships having a fighter compliment, or something about it having fighters on board, or launching fighers or something. (I'm not 100% sure, but I think I remember reading that)

There's no mention of this in Action Stations.

Wow, I would have almost sworn the Bengal-Class ships were CVS's. As for fan obsession with them, I think you're more qualified in that area.

Nope, we only ever see 'CV' for the Tiger's Claw. The only place we ever see 'CVS' is on the 'door art' onboard the Concordia in Wing Commander 2 (and that was apparently a late decision, since the writers guide produced for the WC2-era novel licensing calls it 'BAH-65').

Victory is a Royal-Navy kind of name. I still thought I once heard of Banbridge being referred to as an Admiral of the Fleet.

Victory is the quintessential Royal Navy name - the real HMS Victory was Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar... and it famously remains commissioned today, the oldest such ship in the world.

Are you talking about Jason Bondarevsky? The 25 year old LCDR who ends up in command of the Tarawa?

No, it's an actual-history story that gets explained in several of the Wing Commander novels Dr. Forstchen wrote (and several of his non-WC books). During the War of 1812, the Captain of the USS Chesapeake was wounded and taken below decks by a Third Lieutenant. In the time he was below decks all the senior officers were killed or wounded - leaving the Lieutenant who went below unknowingly in charge of the ship. He was ultimately court martiald for failing to take over as the chain of command required.

When was Space-Marshall Gregarov mentioned in the game script... I honestly don't remember it. Was it in the game documentation or something?

No, she's a character from the novels - Pilgrim Stars.

You actually came up with the Ranger-class designation? Then how come Forstschen refers to the Ranger-Class carriers?

The name came from Action Stations, I incorrectly applied it to the Victory. I made the mistake of thinking that Action Stations referenced 'an old Ranger class light carrier'. The light part isn't in the book - the Ranger was just a normal carrier.

Something going on sounds like it's about to fire on them... I could be wrong but it sounds like the Iason incident.

It doesn't really sound like the Iason incident, though, since there's two ships (one named 'Sparrow')

If the technology existed before 2659, you would have probably have seen a number of 1,000 meter long ships in WC or WC2. In SO, the Plunkett is 1,200 meters

I don't know - this may be more of a fan thing than a good way for a universe to work. As much as we'd like to see the biggest possible warships, it doesn't make sense after a point. If anything, warships should get *smaller* after a point rather than become increasingly large targets (I'm sure we'd see giant space-supertankers and similar support ships... but that's not as sexy.)

I would disagree. WC-3 and WC-4 had already been created. They could have simply incorporated WC-3 like characteristics onto older-designs (The Krant was very fang-like, and the Fralthi had prongs on the front like the Fralthi II class)

... and WC2 had been created before WC3. No team has been willing to give up their own style in favor of what came before, in terms of art direction. That said, the movie had similarities just like the ones you just listed - the Dralthi is very pointed, the Thrak'hra is all knife-edged...

I never played the losing version of the series. How quickly do you take damage when you get outside of the shadow?

I don't remember whether or not it's even simulated in the mission - I just know Eisen warns you about it in the briefing (lets face it, it's *very* hard to get to the Blackmane Losing series... you have to be a pretty bad pilot to fail the first bunch of missions in WC3).

So, are any parts of the Bible Canon?

Only the parts reprinted elsewhere.