You Know What Would Be Cool?

[Dundradal]

Star*Soldier

 

[Bandit LOAF]

My point is that it did not look like *any* design of the Tiger's Claw seen in any of the games.

Yes, I know - and my point is that that's an arbitrary complaint. Why are those games able to redesign the Tiger's Claw with impunity when the movie is not? (And to be clear, the games and the movies were done by the same team - it's not an example of Hollywood outsiders redoing the universe. The movie was directed by Chris Roberts, the CGI was all done by Maverick Team veterans, etc.)

In any case, there is no evidence (prior to the WC-Movie) that suggested the WC-1 Rapier was anything other than the Rapier, not Rapier II, or Rapier III etc. It was just called the Rapier.

Yeah, but in WC-1 it was just called the Rapier. Not Rapier I, or Rapier II. Which in my opinion is enough to say that there was no "other" Rapier in WC-1 at that timeframe.

You aren't thinking this through. The fighter in Wing Commander I is the same class of ship as seen in Wing Commander II and Wing Commander Arena... which is the F-44 Rapier II. There's absolutely no question about this - if their shared appearance and specifications aren't enough, the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide explicitly states that they are the same ship. In fact, WC2 and Arena both use 'Rapier' casually to refer to the Rapier II at times... just like Wing Commander I. The ship in Wing Commander I was, by necessity, the 'Rapier II' years before the Wing Commander movie came out.

But how would she *know* the skipper was incapacitated? And still CDR Gerald was still alive -- he would be the most senior person.

I'm not sure why this would matter, but of course she knew - she was receiving orders from the carrier's bridge during the battle. The more important point is that the entire problem is an idiotic pretend standard you invented rather than an actual continuity issue. Angel was clearly the ranking officer on the scene in question... and a quick query to our naval experts tells me that

And beyong that, a quick query to one of our naval experts confirms that your claim about carrier operations was wrong in the first place. Not only wrong, but apparently laughable - there's no way the Captain could or would be responsible for something so specific and so time-critical as an individual element recovery operations. The decision to clear the flight deck is made by the Flight Control Officer, who follows the orders of the Deck Boss. True to this system, Angel orders Deck Boss Peterson to clear the flight deck.

She wasn't commanding just a squadron. There were Rapiers, Broadswords and such. Generally a squadron consist of only one type of aircraft/spacecraft in this case.

We've seen mixed squadrons many times in Wing Commander... including on the Tiger's Claw, where the squadron which starred in Academy (TV) had ten Scimitars and two Broadswords. We've also seen many instances where bombers from another squadron were attached to someone else's wing during a mission (including a pair of Broadsword's placed under Blair's command at the start of Wing Commander II). In this particular case we know that the former example is what's happening, thanks to details from the book - Black Lion squadron consists of a number of Rapiers and a pair of Broadswords.

There's absolutely no question that Angel was a Squadron Commander and not the carrier's Wing Commander. From the simple and unquestionable fact that the novels and the Handbook say so (it's a big plot point in Pilgrim Stars) to the fact that her rank (Lt. Commander) and role (commanding a small group of pilots out of the carrier's entire complement) in the movie itself are those of a Squadron Commander. (In fact, the *actual* complaint here - which no one has figured out yet - is that the movie suggested-but-did-not-state that *Gerald* was in the Halcyon role. The novel fixed this.)

No, I didn't read it. I don't even have a link to it. But Star-Soldier was written WAY after the movie.

You were given a link earlier in this very thread. Why are you bothering to reply to points about something without reading it? For that matter, why aren't you falling over yourself in joy at the opportunity to read new Wing Commander history after so many years? What's your angle?

Additionally some of the drawings prior to the movie being made depicted a much different fighter than the one finally shown as the Rapier. While it didn't exactly look like either fighter, it looked way more like the Rapier from the game than the Rapier from the movie.

I don't know what this means or why it's important. The Rapier (I) in the finished movie is based largely on the BAE Lightning cockpits used to construct the fighters. That said, the ship seen in the early production art was called the 'Sabre' - the name used for the 'hero' figher in the movie's script up until the 2nd draft.

That's true. But the Rapier in WC-1 wasn't called the Rapier II, which it would have been had the Rapier from WCM would have existed. And it's odd considering Blair had flown them that it would have never been mentioned again. And it's not like Blair went up every time to a more advanced fighter as the game progressed. Sometimes he went back to flying Scimitars in some missions, etc. Why didn't he go back to flying these CF-117's

The Rapier II clearly replaced the Rapier - if not throughout the fleet, then at least on the Tiger's Claw. It was Black Lion squadron that flew both ships.

A movie if anything should be *more* realistic than the game. Carriers are packed for space. Even if not seen on the deck, there are recessed areas on the side of the flight-deck (at least the Victory and Lexington, which were the most realistic designs seen) where you would see loads of fighters being fixed and repared. And while it's possible they'd all be the same class, the likely hood would be that you'd see multiple planes being fixed -- if realism was the goal.

The Wing Commander movie was not an attempt to be more realistic than the Wing Commander games. It was an attempt to be a movie of Wing Commander. You do not have an out here - we see only one type of fighter on the movie's flight deck just like we see one type in the game (in fact, we don't even see Broadswords on the movie's deck... and we know they're there... of course, we know the others are there too because of the novel... but I digress).

Jesus Christ, I assumed it was written after. The WC-3 novel was written after WC-3 the game. Still, the fact that it used Claw-Marks and other sources as reference points would explain why it had more detail than the movie.

See, I just yelled at you for doing something very stupid and then you did it *again*. If you don't know something, don't decide it! It's very, very simple. The Wing Commander 3 novel was *also* written before the game was finished. It was based on the shooting script and was done with even fewer production materials (no set stills, no sketches, etc).

- The claw marks listing strikes me as kind of odd, and potentially a continuity error with the game. The game made them seem brand new -- it may have been added just for game players to see everything in the game -- after all the Rapier's specs are drawn up too... But one could argue Halcyon was just reviewing the fact that they were brand new (that would make sense) -- still I don't know why he'd need to review them if they were encountered in the WC-M... Would there need to be any need for reviewing it?

- The Paladin comment is interesting. But I'm wondering if this was just added after the fact (after the WC-1 game) for entertainment value. Considering Halcyon felt it necessary to mention the new design or review it would mean that even if it did exist a few months, he felt the necessary to mention it or at least review it to new pilots.

I have no idea what 'entertainment value' means in this context or how it would excuse anything in the first place. It's a line of dialogue that refers to a Fralthi early in the game, it's not a Vegas floor show.

- The Fralthi may have existed before it's appearance in WC-1 the game. But it wasn't well known, or whoever saw it (opposing ships) was killed before they could broadcast specs.

Paladin, Bossman, Angel, Blair, Payback, Rostov...

- Wing Commander Academy (TV) was made AFTER many of the games were written. For this reason they may have added the Fralthi even though if it would have been slightly out of continuity

None of that made any sense.

I already wrote some explanations. But perhaps you are right, it may have been the carrier conversion that was new. But why did they code name it "Fralthi". The name wasn't new... and if I recall it was called a cruiser.

I don't think you picked this up correctly: the Fralthi carrier *is* what the Wing Commander I conversation was referred to. Blair specifically talks about this in the game.

BTW: I know the regular Fralthi had a fighter complement of 20... what did the Carrier version carry?

You are reading your Claw Marks incorrectly. The light carrier conversion is the one with fighters, the cruiser is the one without any.

Halcyon himself mentions commanding the ship?

Yes, hence my having said: "He mentions commanding the ship in The Secret Mission's dialogue".

Still, it does seem odd though, that the Wing Commander would be also commanding the ship. The Carrier Air Wing is generally a seperate chain of command from the rest of the Carriers complement. If whoever was the Captain died, the XO would be in charge even if the Wing Commander outranked him. Still Jason Bondarevsky the WC on the Tarawa took the helm after the skipper died.

Command of the Intrepid went to Wing Commander Blair rather than Executive Officer Garibaldi after Eisen left. The Wing Commander is clearly the second in command of the carrier in Wing Commander.

When was it mentioned that Tolwyn left? (prior to WCA-TV)

Perhaps in the reference we just went over about Halcyon saying he commanded the ship in The Secret Missions?

Deveraux did a database search with her fighter... which is beyond me as I don't know how so much data about people in the intelligence community would be carried in every fighter's computer (and they couldn't communicate with the Claw...)... C6AZ9 clearance... and Commodore James Taggart came up. It specifically called him a Commodore.

You've... completely... ignored... what I just explained. Somehow. Lets do this again:

Paladin is a spy who has been tasked with ordering around line captains as part of his mission. In order to do that, he needs to be... a Commodore! Not a Commodore in the 'rose in the ranks for twenty years and finally made flag officer' sense - Commodore in the classic sense, a special rank given to those who are put in charge of commanding groups of ship captains. When his mission is over I'm sure he'll revert to whatever his comissioned rank is.

Hey, it's more canonicalish (yes that's my own word) than the WCM was... And it was based on a battle that was already written about.

In either case, such a close call in which Earth almost got ambushed is a big part of the storyline which novels written in later parts of the timeline (2668 for example) would have brought up. Additionally, the WC-Bible which while not canon unless repeated elsewhere, never mentioned anything like such an ambush being part of the plot. That's a really close call.

[QUOTE}Well, no other source in the entire WC-Bible prior to the Movie, to the best of my knowledge, did not cover any invasion like that -- all the way to Earth's door step other than Fleet-Action. I wasn't attempting to make it up in order to disagree with the movie, or get under your skin or anything.[/QUOTE]

One thing is expanding upon a story. But this is inserting a part of the story that was never in mentioned in WC before... not the WC-Bible, (which while not Canon, covers the timeline from 2634 to at least 2669), every novel other than the WC-Movie Novel/ Pilgrim-Stars novel, and the WC-Movie...

Star*Soldier was written AFTER the WC-Movie...

I don't know about the Epsilon Prime battle, but the WC-Movie wasn't a small addition -- it was a HUGE insertion of material -- it would have been a major part of a war! Your enemy nearly reaches your homeworld!!! And is narrowly stopped.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying something that big of an event would be unlikely to never be mentioned. WC:FA never mentioned any kind of sneak attack like this (granted the movie was written later -- but still, the WCM sneak-attack was something HUGE -- they damn near got Earth! That was not a tiny adjustment to the plot to add some detail and stuff -- it was a major change! Not a small addition)

Please stop doing this.

* Your picture of the Kilrathi War as defined by the three 'X Years Ago' boxes in Claw Marks is idiotic and is as wrong as anything can possibly be. Do you really believe that twenty years of epic warfare that killed two trillion humans consists of three failed attempts to invade individual star systems?

* You do not understand how timelines for shared universes are created. What you think on this subject is the polar opposite of how it works. Why does the Kilrathi War go on for twenty years before Wing Commander I? It's because Chris Roberts and company specifically wanted room to add future stories, not because... heck, I can't even imagine how you're thinking about this -- but it's offensive to the very purpose of a timeline in the first place. Those years were created as 'space for rent', not 'NOTHING MAY BE PLACED HERE UNDER PENALTY OT DEATH'. In raging against a movie you don't like you're going out of your way to insult the games - and that's really dumb.

* The events of the Wing Commander movie are a small story. The Kilrathi attempt to invade Earth - presumably the goal of every Kilrathi offensive, ever - and completely fail to do so. It's a lot of work for Blair and the Tiger's Claw crews... but to the rest of the galaxy the story is only that the fleet rushed into position, arrived in time and suffered no losses stopping a fairly small Kilrathi battle group. No territory changed hands, the Kilrathi gained no ability to launch such an attack again in the future, etc. Their major offensive against the Vega Sector colonies several weeks later was a much bigger deal.

* No Wing Commander game *ever* mentions such a battle, even when they are established in manuals or novels that you like. You will not find one reference to McAuliffe in Wing Commander I, you will not find one reference to Fleet Action in Wing Commander III... and these were much bigger, much more important battles. To suggest, therefore, that the events of the movie 'must' be mentioned in games because they're so important is just offensively wrong.

* You do not understand how linear time works, you do not understand how a timeline works and you do not understand that these are not the same thing. 1999 comes after 1996. A story written in 1999 cannot be referenced in one written in 1996. It's physically impossible. Stop insisting that this should happen. It is very, very stupid of you. No one is stroking their beards and commenting to themselves about what a good thinking you are here.

* Simiarly, a story set in 2634 can be written after one set in 2669. Here's where you're having trouble: unlike *real* linear time, a shared universe timeline *can* (and *does*, and *must*) work this way. Before you go on another petty rant about how-dare-they-tell-a-story-set-in-2654-in-2007-when-they-told-one-set-in-2655-in-1991! again, consider a simple overarching fact: Privateer 2 took place in *2789* and was told in *1996*. Every other Wing Commander story ever is, by your system, completely irrelevant. This isn't because that's the case - it's because your system is wrong.

Second of all... why would Earth's destruction in the story make as big a deal as they made it out to be? I thought only the Kilrathi's culture and stuff was so centered around their homeworld and we were more decentralized... (I'm seriously curious about this one -- Blair, the main character was from Nephele, Marshall was from Leto, etc...)

I believe both Fleet Action and the movie storie make it clear that the Confederation would fight on without Earth (you also clearly understand the Kilrathi psychology that would cause them to launch such an attack in the first place... so... what are you going on about?) Go blow up Washington DC and see if anyone minds. The country will continue to function... but such an attack would still be a very serious problem.

Well yeah, to the best of my memory. But it was mentioned in Claw-Marks (Which timeline or not, is a source and was mentioned), and the WC-Bible (Which if mentioned in more than one source is canon)

I don't think you understand what the Wing Commander Bible is or what 'canon' means or even what we're talking about here. The entire point is that the events mentioned in the manual timelines are never mentioned in the games themselves, proving that the idea that they 'must' be discussed is absolutely wrong. They're flavor text, not the focus of the Wing Commander universe. The bible is not part of the canon - the events listed are because they're in Victory Streak and Star*Soldier. You do not ever need to read the bible to learn about them.

You're kidding me with Bossman right? Taiwan is called the Republic of China... may not be the People's Republic of China, but he's of Chinese descent...

You are referring to a very particular political oddity which exists in our time... and which certainly will not (in fact, by its nature can not) exist in the case of future world with a single world government. Someone born in Taiwan in the 27th century will be no more Chinese than someone born in the United States today is British.

Regarding Halcyon -- I assumed Halcyon was from Earth. Seemed kind of a gruff American WWII officer type.

Halcyon has no established background. There are plenty of places in the Wing Commander universe that he could be from. You have a serious problem with assumptions.

I did not know Taggart was from Ares, and since he had a Scottish accent I would have assume he was from Scottland.

It's odd, then, that you worship Claw Marks beyond reason and also have not read it.

I guess Blair was from Nephele, but I thought somewhere in the WC story it said he was also from Earth (not sure if that's true though)

Blair was born on Nephele, the planet you see at the start of Wing Commander IV. Much of his childhood was spent on Earth after his parents were killed.

He wasn't a mistake! Them making his character into a French guy was a mistake, although Jean-Luc does sound cooler than Julian...

This wasn't a mistake, either - it was entirely intentional and made for a unique character. Simply put, a stoic Englishman isn't anything worth writing home about... but a Frenchman with the same characteristics is an interesting and unique character, an odd contradiction. His background allowed for all sorts of interesting things, including one of the best episodes of the series (Family).

Do not think that this is an aside - it's proof that you're laboring under some fanboy misapprehension regarding all this, that you're suffering from a catastrophic failure of the imagination. Patrick Stewart having an English accent is a funny bit of trivia, not some world-crushing error. When the Enterprise fire's a space torpedo from the wrong space hole it isn't a signal that the world is ending. It's something funny to notice that has almost no effect on the purpose of the narrative or the cohesion of the shared reality.

Okay, if they did, they did.

Since you apparently lack the ability or the interest to study the sources everyone has kindly provided in the past I doubt you'll bother click this link, but: https://cdn.wcnews.com/newershots/full/fmwc-small.jpg (which is to say: 'they did'.)

(Also, lets comment on the Concordia thing - clearly, you're the same user. It's not just a matter of acting the same, you have the same IP block. I personally don't have a problem with someone reregistering under a new callsign years later... but protesting too much is kind of fishy.)

 

[AD]

My point is that it did not look like *any* design of the Tiger's Claw seen in any of the games.

So what. We already mentioned that the SWC Tiger Claw looks nothing like the WC1 Tiger Claw. What the ship looks like isn't an issue Why should it be surprising that the Tiger Claw in the movie is different looking again?

But how would she *know* the skipper was incapacitated? And still CDR Gerald was still alive -- he would be the most senior person.

She wasn't commanding just a squadron. There were Rapiers, Broadswords and such. Generally a squadron consist of only one type of aircraft/spacecraft in this case.

Not in Wing commander. While that is the case in some games, a number of the other games also include specific instances squadrons are made up of a general type of fighter but also including a few specialty ships like - as you mentioned - Broadswords.

No, I didn't read it. I don't even have a link to it. But Star-Soldier was written WAY after the movie.

Why does that matter. You're making yourself look more idiotic with every post. Go read it. It's a free download from EA, or at the CIC. There's also a minimum number of Hard Copies that EA had printed for promotional purposes.

In any case, there is no evidence (prior to the WC-Movie) that suggested the WC-1 Rapier was anything other than the Rapier, not Rapier II, or Rapier III etc. It was just called the Rapier.

Yeah, but in WC-1 it was just called the Rapier. Not Rapier I, or Rapier II. Which in my opinion is enough to say that there was no "other" Rapier in WC-1 at that timeframe.

Additionally some of the drawings prior to the movie being made depicted a much different fighter than the one finally shown as the Rapier. While it didn't exactly look like either fighter, it looked way more like the Rapier from the game than the Rapier from the movie.

Stop repeating yourself. I doubt any pilots in-game call the WC2 rapier the Rapier II either. In Fact none of the WC1 material specifies anything regarding the ships designation. It's made clear in later material that it's the Rapier II however. LOAF would know better than I though if things like SWC specifically identify it. The early concept art was based on game designs yes, but the movies scrip went through at least 3 or 4 rewrites after that and there was a conscious effort to change the design.

Hey, it's more canonicalish (yes that's my own word) than the WCM was... And it was based on a battle that was already written about.

No it isn't. The was nothing written about the battle other than a name.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying something that big of an event would be unlikely to never be mentioned. WC:FA never mentioned any kind of sneak attack like this (granted the movie was written later -- but still, the WCM sneak-attack was something HUGE -- they damn near got Earth! That was not a tiny adjustment to the plot to add some detail and stuff -- it was a major change! Not a small addition)

this is stupid reasoning. And that's putting it politely. Stupid ! Stupid! Stupid! You would think the borderworlders would be mentioned before WC4 too but you don't seem to have a problem with that. Adding a Kilrathi Incursion doesn't change anything. Apparently Trillions died in the war. The must have died somewhere. I would think that all those battles would be considered significant events by your standards, But We haven't heard much anything about them either.

That's true. But the Rapier in WC-1 wasn't called the Rapier II, which it would have been had the Rapier from WCM would have existed. And it's odd considering Blair had flown them that it would have never been mentioned again. And it's not like Blair went up every time to a more advanced fighter as the game progressed. Sometimes he went back to flying Scimitars in some missions, etc. Why didn't he go back to flying these CF-117's

THe CF-117 Rapier is really old by the time of the movie (a nearly 100 year old design IIRC) THey are retired about the same time. The WC1 Rapiers are new.

A movie if anything should be *more* realistic than the game. Carriers are packed for space. Even if not seen on the deck, there are recessed areas on the side of the flight-deck (at least the Victory and Lexington, which were the most realistic designs seen) where you would see loads of fighters being fixed and repared. And while it's possible they'd all be the same class, the likely hood would be that you'd see multiple planes being fixed -- if realism was the goal.

There *are* many types of fighters on the claw though. Not Just Rapiers and Broadswords (We don't see Broadswords on the flight deck either by the way). Partly it boils down to budjet. It Just wasn't feasable to create actual cockpits for all the fighters: Hornets, Rapiers, Scimitars, Broadswords, and Raptors. I believe there might have been a few others in Academy too. As it was, the Rapiers on the flight deck were designe that way because electric lightning cockpits were cheaper than other options so the fighters were designed around them.

Jesus Christ, I assumed it was written after. The WC-3 novel was written after WC-3 the game. Still, the fact that it used Claw-Marks and other sources as reference points would explain why it had more detail than the movie.

No, that's just the nature of the written page as opposed to film.

Still, it does seem odd though, that the Wing Commander would be also commanding the ship. The Carrier Air Wing is generally a seperate chain of command from the rest of the Carriers complement. If whoever was the Captain died, the XO would be in charge even if the Wing Commander outranked him. Still Jason Bondarevsky the WC on the Tarawa took the helm after the skipper died.

Rosie *was* under Angel's command though. And asking emotionally for the flight crew to clear the deck so your squadron doesn't run out of fuel isn't the same as being in command of the whole ship.

In either case, such a close call in which Earth almost got ambushed is a big part of the storyline which novels written in later parts of the timeline (2668 for example) would have brought up. Additionally, the WC-Bible which while not canon unless repeated elsewhere, never mentioned anything like such an ambush being part of the plot. That's a really close call.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!

Star*Soldier was written AFTER the WC-Movie...

And blair didn't have a name before WC3, so what.

I don't know about the Epsilon Prime battle, but the WC-Movie wasn't a small addition -- it was a HUGE insertion of material -- it would have been a major part of a war! Your enemy nearly reaches your homeworld!!! And is narrowly stopped.

Second of all... why would Earth's destruction in the story make as big a deal as they made it out to be? I thought only the Kilrathi's culture and stuff was so centered around their homeworld and we were more decentralized... (I'm seriously curious about this one -- Blair, the main character was from Nephele, Marshall was from Leto, etc...) So that's it. You are being an idiot because you don't seriously want to know anything?...

Why earth is important is explained in the novel. And not everyone feels the same way. It's a political manoever. Bellegarde has a very vocal disagreement with Tolwyn over it.

Well, no other source in the entire WC-Bible prior to the Movie, to the best of my knowledge, did not cover any invasion like that -- all the way to Earth's door step other than Fleet-Action. I wasn't attempting to make it up in order to disagree with the movie, or get under your skin or anything.

Being mentioned doesn't matter though, and game writers aren't going to magically know 10 years ahead of time what the movies plot will be. It's not some huge plot scematic that was drawn up years in advance that must be adhered to no matter what. It just doesn't work that way.

You're kidding me with Bossman right? Taiwan is called the Republic of China... may not be the People's Republic of China, but he's of Chinese descent...

Taiwanesse people might disagree with you. It's china that insists they are chineese wheras the Taiwanesse have been asserting independance for a long time at the threat of Chinese agression.

I did not know Taggart was from Ares, and since he had a Scottish accent I would have assume he was from Scottland.

Paladin's ancestors apparently were scotish but he was raised off world.

I guess Blair was from Nephele, but I thought somewhere in the WC story it said he was also from Earth (not sure if that's true though)

Blair was most likely born on Peron but grew up on his uncles farm on Nephele
[/QUOTE]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I doubt any pilots in-game call the WC2 rapier the Rapier II either. In Fact none of the WC1 material specifies anything regarding the ships designation. It's made clear in later material that it's the Rapier II however. LOAF would know better than I though if things like SWC specifically identify it.

That's correct - it's only referred to as the Rapier II in a few formal instances... including the Kilrathi Sagam manual and the ship selection screens in Arena.

THe CF-117 Rapier is really old by the time of the movie (a nearly 100 year old design IIRC) THey are retired about the same time. The WC1 Rapiers are new.

Over a hundred years - the Handbook suggests it was designed around 2527.

Apparently Trillions died in the war. The must have died somewhere. I would think that all those battles would be considered significant events by your standards, But We haven't heard much anything about them either.

Trillions is correct, the number comes from the Wing Commander Prophecy Official Guide.

Taiwanesse people might disagree with you. It's china that insists they are chineese wheras the Taiwanesse have been asserting independance for a long time at the threat of Chinese agression.

It's actually a little of both things. Since the start of the Cold War, Taiwan has been home to the 'Republic of China', the ostensibly-exiled government which ran pre-communist China. This certainly would no longer be the case in a distant future with a single-government galaxy-spanning Confederation.

Paladin's ancestors apparently were scotish but he was raised off world.

Now, here's something positive - the potential to take this thread somewhere interesting.

Paladin and Blair actually have very similar traumatic childhoods... they both lost their parents at a very young age. It may well be one of the things that both links them together and which separates them from Tolwyn (Tolwyn tried and ultimately failed to make both men his proteges at different points). Here's what we know about their histories, from their births to their Academy/OCS acceptances:

--

Paladin's parents, James Sr. and Bethyln, were terraforming engineers from Wick, Scotland. They were based on Ares Station and were developing the Mimas colony when he was born. James Jr. was born in 2605. He was a 'Pilgrim' in the genetic sense alone, having been taught by his biological parents that Earth was his home rather than an ideological hell. Then, when he was seven, both his parents were killed in a Mimite Terrorist attack.

He was taken in by relatives, Mikal and Anhel Taggart. The following year they adopted him. Mikal was a Pilgrim in the traditional sense, and when the war eventually came he would opt to serve the Alliance rather than the Confederation. James attended the University of Cairo, graduating 23rd in his class in 2627 with a level-one degree in Physical Science. While at the University, Taggart was involved with a woman named Danielle Kura, who died of the TBM33 virus shortly before graduation. James applied for Space Forces OCS that same year.

Christopher Blair was the son of Arnold Blair, a Terran Confederation fighter pilot, and Devi Soulsong, a Pilgrim Alliance citizen (the couple was actually first introduced by Paladin). He was probably born on Peron, in the Luyten System in 2630. The Pilgrim War broke out in 2631 and an infant Blair was smuggled off to live with his aunt and uncle (the aunt, Jennifer Blair, was Arnold's sister.)

With the coming of the war, Arnold returned to active duty. Devi, now an outcast among Pilgrims for her marriage to an enemy, remained on Peron. In 2634, the Confederation besieged Peron. Arnold, flying off the TCS Foster, stole his fighter and attempted to rescue his wife on the planet below. Both were killed when a Pilgrim automated stratospheric defense drone shot down Blair's fighter. Arnolds actions were classified, protecting the recordof a famed war hero.

Meanwhile, Christopher was living on his uncle's subsistence farm on conservative Nephele. He was first hailed as a war hero's son... but in 2638 the truth about Arnold's last mission was revealed and young Christopher became an outcast himself. Around this time his uncle died, killed in a farm equipment accident. Jennifer Blair left Christopher in the care of his maternal grandparents and went off-world to find work. She remarried and did not return.

Christopher was a serious student, but his grades suffered greatly after the revelation regarding his father's betrayal (a combination of his own desparation and community prejudice towards him.) He worked hard to bring them back up, and by the time he entered high school he was a straight-A student again.

When he was 13, he became interested in his family's history - both his mother's Pilgrim origins and his father's family's military legacy (Blairs had been military officers for hundreds of years). He began wearing his mother's Pilgrim Cross (though he had no interest in the Pilgrim ideology) and preparing for a term with the Confederation military. He also became more argumentative, his teachers noticing a propensity towards supporting unconventional views. In order to qualify for Nephele's single Academy appointment he took up wrestling and ultimately qualified for the all-sector competition. He did not turn in his application until the day of the deadline, wanting to be absolutely certain that it was what he wanted to do with his life. His grandparents, reconstructed Pilgrims, disagreed with his decision to seek the Academy appointment - opposing war of any kind.

Blair's original plan was to serve only the required six year term and then to return to Nephele to work as a cropduster...

--

So, there's that. There are some interesting parallels in there beyond the obvious small-universe tie-togethers... both lose parents to war, both are taught to be unfailingly loyal to the Confederation in spite of their Pilgrim backgrounds... both are later raised by adoptive parents who disagree with their career choice.

 

[Quarto]

It's actually a little of both things. Since the start of the Cold War, Taiwan has been home to the 'Republic of China', the ostensibly-exiled government which ran pre-communist China. This certainly would no longer be the case in a distant future with a single-government galaxy-spanning Confederation.

Taiwan is even more complicated than that, because it's populated by two separate groups (not necessarily separate ethnically, but culturally - i.e., they consider themselves different) - the native Taiwanese, and the Chinese. The Taiwanese themselves have never really had any political power, and when the current president of Taiwan started talking about an independence referendum, the Chinese political parties actually started talking to the Communist Chinese government, to ensure that there would be enough pressure on Taiwan to prevent such a referendum.

The native Taiwanese haven't got the slightest chance of real independence, though - their fate is going to be exactly the same as that of their ethnic and cultural brethren in southern China (who have long ago been Sinicised, but once upon a time had more in common with the natives of Taiwan and the Philippines than with the Chinese). Unless there's some great big change in the geopolitics of the world, the Taiwanese of the 27th century will consider themselves 100% Chinese.

(that's not to say that is the case in WC, though - after all, on those rare occasions where the novels refer back to the events of the 21st-26th centuries, they imply all sorts of large-scale conflicts that we know nothing about)

 

[Bob McDob]

THe CF-117 Rapier is really old by the time of the movie (a nearly 100 year old design IIRC) THey are retired about the same time.

Except on the rare occasion when they aren't (replacing the Claw's F-44 Rapiers in Pilgrim Stars)
.

(that's not to say that is the case in WC, though - after all, on those rare occasions where the novels refer back to the events of the 21st-26th centuries, they imply all sorts of large-scale conflicts that we know nothing about)

Or just plain never happened - we haven't had a Faraday Rebellion and Bob Hope obviously isn't going to be performing for another hundred years.

(Ask Kris what the chances are that there'll be a Belgium in six hundred years, too.)

 

[Miracynonyx100]

If there was a new rapier coming out. How come there was never mention to the old rapier that was in service at the same time?

Second, if Blair's dad was a traitor, why would the officers in WC (Either Gerald or Tolwyn) say that they fought alongside Arnold Blair and he was a good-man (Sounds odd)...

Third, if the WC takes over after the Captain dies... what's the point of having an XO?

Fourth -- Regarding Earth's importance.... it was said in WCM that the fate of the war could depend on the two extra hrs it would take for their fleet to reach Earth. Meaning it would be more than just "Confed would keep going on".

Victoria Kent

 

[AD]

If there was a new rapier coming out. How come there was never mention to the old rapier that was in service at the same time?

Do we need to explain this *again*?

Second, if Blair's dad was a traitor, why would the officers in WC (Either Gerald or Tolwyn) say that they fought alongside Arnold Blair and he was a good-man (Sounds odd)...

Tolwyn understands the situation better than the others. Arnold Blair wasn't a traitor. But in most peoples minds being married to a Pilgrim, much less trying to save her from behind the blockade was questionable. Gerald never says anything good about blairs father. His reaction is exactly what the general unknowing populations was. He didn't trust pilgrims nor pilgrim sympathizers.

Third, if the WC takes over after the Captain dies... what's the point of having an XO?

Gerald is apparently the Wing Commander though

Fourth -- Regarding Earth's importance.... it was said in WCM that the fate of the war could depend on the two extra hrs it would take for their fleet to reach Earth. Meaning it would be more than just "Confed would keep going on".

Either way, loosing earth would be extremely demoralizing. Solsector houses confed HQ no less. While not everyone agrees as to the importance of Earth (Bellegarde for example) it would still be a terrible loss.

From another angle I suppose we could interpret Tolwyn's "war" as meaning that particular Battle.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

If there was a new rapier coming out. How come there was never mention to the old rapier that was in service at the same time?

You're still having trouble with the concept of linear time. Once again, the Wing Commander movie was made nine years *after* the original Wing Commander. The latter can, by the very nature of time itself, not refer to a concept created by the former. This is where the 'retroactive' part of 'retroactive continuity' comes from. Stop repeating this, it doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, there are no Wing Commander stories anywhere that reference the previous game's ships, even when they're known to still be in service. No dialogue in Wing Commander III mentions the Rapier, nothing in Wing Commander IV mentions the Raptor, nothing in Prophecy mentions the Thunderbolt, etc. To insist that Wing Commander I must somehow be an exception to everything else ever seen in Wing Commander isn't reasonable. It's arbitrary and stupid.

Second, if Blair's dad was a traitor, why would the officers in WC (Either Gerald or Tolwyn) say that they fought alongside Arnold Blair and he was a good-man (Sounds odd)...

Context isn't your forte. Go back and read Blair's psyche profile in the Handbook... or go back and read my post about exactly what made Arnold Blair a 'traitor' (trying to rescue his wife against orders)... or even just watch the freaking movie (Gerald: "He married a Pilgrim woman, didn't he? Pilgrims don't think like us.")

Third, if the WC takes over after the Captain dies... what's the point of having an XO?

You have been grossly misniformed about how ship crews function. The Executive Officer isn't someone who sits around waiting for the Captain to die in order to do anything... nor is the Captain someone who does everything on the ship at all times. He's a working officer, part of the Captain's staff and responsible for many aspects of a ship's everyday workings... whether he takes over command second or third in line is pretty irrelevant to his job.

Fourth -- Regarding Earth's importance.... it was said in WCM that the fate of the war could depend on the two extra hrs it would take for their fleet to reach Earth. Meaning it would be more than just "Confed would keep going on".

See, here's a good example of exactly your problem. You are going out of your way to make up problems where none exist. What you've done here is take a line of dialogue and decide it means something other than what it says. How can someones thought processes actually work this way?

MOVIE: ... could decide the outcome of this war.
YOU: Could? I should pretend that means the same thing as 'does'! If anyone calls me on this, I'll repeat myself over and over and over!
MOVIE NOVEL: {Adds a lengthy discussion between Tolwyn and Bellegarde commenting on exactly that line and why Bellegarde disagrees with it.}
YOU: I'll pretend that didn't happen and keep repeating myself!

I hate to steal a line from AD... but: stupid, stupid, stupid.