WORST WCP/SO ship

Lt.Overload said:
That's in the game. Black Vampire Bomber (Vamprblb) and Black Panther Bomber (panthrblb). Who came up with the whole "Black" series? It was just some upgrades, and the same color ship. Nothing black about them.
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Black as in...Black Ops - special operations that are secret.

In case you missed it, in WCSO the Cerberus is assigned to the TCIS - The Intelligence Service, not the mainline military for covert operations (in fact, that WCSO mission series file is called "covert").

I'm not sure we ever use the Black Vampire Bomber, but the idea intrigues me. Even if it only has one light torpedo, to be able to dogfight in, drop the torpedo, and then dogfight out has serious potential.
 
Jason_Ryock said:
Black as in...Black Ops - special operations that are secret.

In case you missed it, in WCSO the Cerberus is assigned to the TCIS - The Intelligence Service, not the mainline military for covert operations (in fact, that WCSO mission series file is called "covert").

I'm not sure we ever use the Black Vampire Bomber, but the idea intrigues me. Even if it only has one light torpedo, to be able to dogfight in, drop the torpedo, and then dogfight out has serious potential.
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1. Black Ops... why bother? Just call them Secret Ops like the name of the game? They don't have a drastic black color change like Black Ops would suggest.

2. I understand that, but why? It's a crusier (2 steps down from the Midway), with a plasma gun (one that works, ALL the time).

3. I hear ya. Some light torps, and swarmers would be AWSOME!!!
 
Lt.Overload said:
1. Black Ops... why bother? Just call them Secret Ops like the name of the game? They don't have a drastic black color change like Black Ops would suggest.

2. I understand that, but why? It's a crusier (2 steps down from the Midway), with a plasma gun (one that works, ALL the time).

3. I hear ya. Some light torps, and swarmers would be AWSOME!!!
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1) As I just explained, "Black" is a term for "Secret" Operations. It's usually used when the funding for the project is buried in other things. They are "Black" because no one sees them, and no one knows they are there. It has nothing to do with the color of the ships.

2) Exactly. The Hades-class is a multi-role cruiser, it's a one stop place to shop. It's got fighters, and the ability to defend itself and engaged in offensive operations. Carrier's can't get into a slugfest and win, you send a carrier out by itself it's going to run into trouble. Meanwhile, cruisers don't typically carrier enough fighters to make their presence known when striking across a distance. It just makes SENSE to have one ship instead of sending half a fleet.

3) I think that would over power the ship, and in truth, I'd rather have 6 IR missiles then 4 Swarmers. Same damage, faster lock time, more missiles. Swarmers, IMO, are just a waste. Those missiles do massive damage....to ONE target. Talk about overkill.
 
Lt.Overload said:
1. Black Ops... why bother? Just call them Secret Ops like the name of the game? They don't have a drastic black color change like Black Ops would suggest.
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'Cause they felt like it. :p

2. I understand that, but why? It's a crusier (2 steps down from the Midway), with a plasma gun (one that works, ALL the time).
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A cruiser is probably more "covert" than a huge ass mega-carrier thing. Also, the cerberus cannon was Confed tech like the one on the Devastator, not an alien ship killer like the Midway's crystal gun.

Those missiles do massive damage....to ONE target. Talk about overkill.
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Not if you're up against a Barracuda... or a Devil Ray. :)
 
'Cause they felt like it.
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I can respect that. :p

A cruiser is probably more "covert" than a huge ass mega-carrier thing. Also, the cerberus cannon was Confed tech like the one on the Devastator, not an alien ship killer like the Midway's crystal gun.
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The Cerberus cannon was actully a Bug Plasma gun, like a combined Stingray. And the Midway is actully better off huge, with 2 hangers instead of one, even it one gets scrapped the other is active. Unlike Cerberus, then again Secret Ops was supposed to be harder, with alot of Devil Rays, and other stuff. So once again, I respect that. :p

Not if you're up against a Barracuda... or a Devil Ray.
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I guess it's good against those to, but if you where to be fighting, say...30 Red Mantas, you'd respect swarmers. And I respect that. :p


1) As I just explained, "Black" is a term for "Secret" Operations. It's usually used when the funding for the project is buried in other things. They are "Black" because no one sees them, and no one knows they are there. It has nothing to do with the color of the ships.
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Do you see a cloaking device? No. SO YOU CAN SEE IT. It's on radar. It's visable.

3) I think that would over power the ship, and in truth, I'd rather have 6 IR missiles then 4 Swarmers. Same damage, faster lock time, more missiles. Swarmers, IMO, are just a waste. Those missiles do massive damage....to ONE target. Talk about overkill.
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It helps when you lose all wingmen and your going against alot.
 
Dyret said:
Not if you're up against a Barracuda... or a Devil Ray. :)
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I never understood the hype behind the Devil Ray. As "ace" as it's supposed to be, I've never had trouble killing it, even in a bomber.

And Barracuda's just aren't that scary to me. Kilrathi Corvettes from WC3 on the other hand, used to scare me pretty good. Those things were loaded with turrets, and one of them pointed straight behind the thing.

I wonder if it's just the physiological effect of actually seeing the turrets rise and point at me that made me more afraid.
 
Jason_Ryock said:
I'm not sure we ever use the Black Vampire Bomber, but the idea intrigues me. Even if it only has one light torpedo, to be able to dogfight in, drop the torpedo, and then dogfight out has serious potential.
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I'm pretty sure we get to fly them. If they weren't in the game, I probably wouldn't have dared to give one a pair of torpedoes.

The fight in, fire, fight out concept is what we had in the previous games, and I think that they were trying to get away from that dynamic.

To be honest, I'd rather just fly escort missions than have to fly bombers. Very nice of them to give you that option on a few occasions.
 
I liked when we could choose between Vampire or Devastator in Prophecy, all missions should be like that, execpt Interceptor Missions.
 
When you were regularly choosing ships, you were a full-bird Colonel ("full bird" referring to the eagle insignia for the rank; Lt Col uses a silver oak leaf for its insignia) in command of an air wing. When you're a lowly lieutenant on his first or second combat deployment, you get very little say over where you go, and what ship you do it in.

As for the "black" thing, are you being intentionally dense, Lt Overload? The operations are "black", so the specialized ships that perform them are called "black" to differentiate them from the standard fleet configurations that TCN/TCSF gets. "Black" is figurative, not literal, and has loooooooong been considered synonymous with covert operations.
 
Wedge009 said:
Yeah, it's a pity the automated turrets don't seem to fire very much. Or when they do, they rarely hit (I know this for a fact because my gunnery accuracy is always greatly reduced when flying the Shrike or the Devastator... ruins the mission score...)
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I've noticed the opposite. I've been replaying WCP and they seem to fire whenever they have a shot. They do seem to be good at downing the occasional missile as well.
 
Vinman said:
Take a Panther or a Vampire and replace all their missiles with a pair of heavy torpedoes and you've got a far better bombing platform, at least in a combat situation.
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Why does everyone seem to forget the design philosophy of the WCP fighters? Not to mention that those space superiority fighters would need extensive modifications to the missile bays to fit torpedoes, and even then, there'd probably be no room left for missiles afterwards.

As for the odd complaints about the Black Ops fighters, aboard the Cerberus you're flying under the Intelligence division, not the regular Space Force. Hence the modified fighters with the "Black" prefix.
 
Wedge009 said:
Why does everyone seem to forget the design philosophy of the WCP fighters? Not to mention that those space superiority fighters would need extensive modifications to the missile bays to fit torpedoes, and even then, there'd probably be no room left for missiles afterwards.
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No ones forgotten it, the whole conversation stemmed from the fact that the TCIS has apparently already done this very thing.

However, given the nature of the "new" modern design of the WCP Era fighters and ships, perhaps Missile Bays are "Modular" in the same modern Torpedo tubes are. But inserting certain kinds of missiles into certain kinds of shells they can be fired out of a larger tube.

A good example of this would be the MIRV - perhaps it's size is similar to the size of a Torpedo tube. I don't really know, I'm just saying, it's been done. So if you want to fault someone, fault the creators of WCSO.
 
Okay, only now I recall that a few of the losing path missions in WCSO has the Panther with a couple of light torpedoes. I believe this was done for gameplay reasons, however, the Secret Ops fiction (specifically the pieces relating to the Cloudburst and the Dust Cannon) indicates that modifications of fighter weaponry is not always such a simple process (from an in-universe perspective).
 
Wedge009 said:
Okay, only now I recall that a few of the losing path missions in WCSO has the Panther with a couple of light torpedoes. I believe this was done for gameplay reasons, however, the Secret Ops fiction (specifically the pieces relating to the Cloudburst and the Dust Cannon) indicates that modifications of fighter weaponry is not always such a simple process (from an in-universe perspective).
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Yes, the Vampire variant has only light torpedoes, too. I want to say they both have two, but I'm not sure.

My SO directory is a mess right now or I'd check for you.
 
Secret Ops does include 'Strike' versions of both the Black Panther and the Black Vampire. The Panther trades two ELRIRs and all of its FoFs for four ELRARs, two Enhanced Light Torpedos and 36 Enhanced Rocket Pods. The Vampire gets four Enhanced Light Torpedoes and 36 Enhanced Rocket Pods, at the cost of half its FoF missiles, all its Trackers and two of its ELRIRs.
 
I don't think we can really say if adding a torpedo to a ship (by replacing other weapons) causes much problems or not because it has often been done without any consequences in the games (and look at the Vindicator: it carries 3 torps and is still faster than the T-Bolt, except AB).

I agree it would have been great to have the Devastator get a real big bomber feeling - but then it should have been far less manoeuverable and shouldn't mount the Plasma in my opinion. The Plasma made torpedos obsolete for me. I am convinced that a Devastator that drops all it's torps, mines, turrets, some armour and shield and gets a speed and agility boost would be a far superior cap ship killer than the regular one. Though it wouldn't really be a Devastator anymore.

I agree with frostytheplepe on the Panther, Wasp and Hellcat V issue. In SOPS I think the Wasp was absolutely overkill.
 
Mekt-Hakkikt said:
I agree it would have been great to have the Devastator get a real big bomber feeling - but then it should have been far less manoeuverable and shouldn't mount the Plasma in my opinion. The Plasma made torpedos obsolete for me. I am convinced that a Devastator that drops all it's torps, mines, turrets, some armour and shield and gets a speed and agility boost would be a far superior cap ship killer than the regular one. Though it wouldn't really be a Devastator anymore.
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I think this makes the Devastator the worst ship in the game. I know we don't get to fly it to much in WCSO, but I just finished up WCP and that ship...well, you're right. Torpedoes are obselete. It was far faster to wait for my Plasma to recharge and fire again then to fire a torpedo (though a combination of the two certainly works much faster).

Some of those Dual Strike missions in WCP where you kill a capship at NAV1 and then kill one at NAV2 to help out the other wing...you can complete them in six minutes or less....and four minutes of that is dogfighting with the other fighters.

I had to work a little to stay alive and hit my target in the Shrike, in the Devestator I just charge right in and blow stuff out of the way, which I suppose is the point...but it just felt TOO powerful.

And frankly, the concept that the one dinky little flame at the rear of the ship is responsible for pushing it all the way into battle and back out again (even at it's obnoxiously slow speed) just makes me question who designed that model.
 
I wasn't fond of the Piranha since it had a hard time killing much of anything without missiles or the stormfire, but I have to feel sorry for who/whatever pilots the bad guy's Lampreys. Talk about useless...
 
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