Wing Commander: The Movie- What Happened?

[Saturnyne]

I figured the Rapiers' design was changed to reflect the WWII-type feel that Roberts has always wanted for the WC universe. My only problems are as follows:

Maniac and Blair meet for the first time in the movie. Then, they meet in the game. FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Blair and Maniac's first missions are flown in Rapiers. Then, later in the war, the Rapiers are introduced as brand new models fresh off the assembly line.

If not for these and more glaring plotholes, I'd take the movie more seriously as canon. But I still love the film for what it is. What I like in particular is how the Tiger Claw feels like a submarine while in space it feels like old-fashioned dogfighting.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

I think it is possible to take all the things the movie adds while still recognizing that the movie could have been a fair amount better.

I've got a few people to play the remake who never played any Wing Commander games. When I tell them about it, Privateer is introduced as a game where you do your own thing, set in the Wing Commander universe. For most of them, the only thing that comes to mind when they hear 'Wing Commander' is a movie that they heard wasn't very good. It's unfortunate that the public face of Wing Commander among non long time PC gamers is perceived as being so mediocre.

Thus, I wish the movie might have been better and am a little grumpy that it wasn't. In truth though, I've never seen it; I only know what I've heard. And that plays right into your argument: I only think it mediocre because someone said so. If fewer people (like us) said stuff about it, maybe people wouldn't think so poorly of it without having even seen it and I wouldn't have to tell everyone who tries the Remake not to be put off by the movie.

So, for the sake of not putting people off, and co-opting the history it adds, I can see why it shouldn't be dogged all the time here. At the same time, I would find it hard to ignore if things were wrong with it, which someday I shall find out for myself. At any rate, denying its existence or just saying it sucks is certainly not helpful

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Maniac and Blair meet for the first time in the movie. Then, they meet in the game. FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Mm, Wing Commander has been disregarding that continuity for a lot longer than the movie -- the idea that Maniac and Blair went to the Academy together has been around since the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide. It's referenced throughout the adaptations (it's also a 'bible element', for those familiar with the WC1/2 background material given to spinoff writers).

... and, of course, their having known eachother was the basis for the 'Wing Commander Academy' series.

(They don't actually meet for the first time in the movie -- they talk about having been at the Academy together -- "I don't see any of those Hornets we flew back at...")

Blair and Maniac's first missions are flown in Rapiers. Then, later in the war, the Rapiers are introduced as brand new models fresh off the assembly line.

The Pilgrim Stars retcon is that they're two wholly separate fighters. It fits well with the background from the handbook -- the movie Rapier (CF-117) is a hundred years old and about to leave service... it's also supported by a reference in the Kilrathi Saga manual to the fact that the F-44 is the "Rapier II"... ie, the second fighter to be called Rapier. (For those unfamiliar with the convoluted 2654 timeline, the movie takes place in March and the Rapier II is introduced in the Kursawa Series of Wing Commander (1) in October.)

I agree that it would have been nice if they'd just been called something else (an early draft calls them Sabres -- but we'd have hated that too)... on the other hand, I see that they were trying to create a "signature" ship for each side (Rapier and Dralthi) -- and the existing names kind of sell this well.

It's unfortunate that the public face of Wing Commander among non long time PC gamers is perceived as being so mediocre.

That's *our* fault, though -- which is what I'm saying. The Wing Commander movie isn't a big known 'bad movie' -- it was a movie no one in the general public saw. It's the Wing Commander fans who saw it who complained too much... no one else cared.

I'm also not a fan of righteous indignation. "WHY DID THEY CHANGE THE FIGHTERS????" is silly. You may not like them, and *that* is a perfectly reasonable issue to have... but pretending to be offended because the movie didn't have ten pixel by ten pixel green blobs flying around is ridiculous.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

It's unfortunate that the public face of Wing Commander among non long time PC gamers is perceived as being so mediocre.

That's *our* fault, though -- which is what I'm saying.

That's basically the conclusion I come to in my next paragraph. Here's me, who's never seen it and I think it is mediocre because so many people here have said so. If they hadn't, I wouldn't think that. I can't imagine the things they say are entirely baseless (and French/Scottish strikes me as weird), but if people were less persistently negative, I'd be a lot happier about it.

 

[FlashFire82]

When I initially saw the Rapiers in the movie... I was a little astonished... but I could accept it with that "signature fighter" idea. The Dralthi was definitely the right decision for the Kilrathi, and Rapier makes sense as well.. not being a light fighter (I mean really... would anyone have taken "Ferret" seriously?), and not one of the bombers... and overall a "typical" confed fighter. I'd read in many articles beforehand that the movie was going to be different from the games, and felt prepared for it when I finally did see it.

But here's an alternate reality that might have equally upset us... imagine the movie had been wildly popular, brought TONS of people to the genre... and suddenly we're making Wing Commander games out of the movie?

Scary scary thought. ::Knocks on wood::

But overall... I thought the movie was okay if you stood it on it's own. From a musicians standpoint (I know I've mentioned I'm in the Army... but did I mention I'm in the Army Band?), I can tell you that the music is VERY well done. It definitely has its high points... but I guess we were all just expecting to see our favorite WC moments relived, and ended up with new WC moments that were mediocre. In short..I think watching the movie felt a lot like playing Armada.

 

[Maj.Striker]

Absolutely, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression of the movie. I love the movie. I watch it all the time. There are a list of about 10 to 20 things that I really don't like about that movie but in the ultimate scheme of things, they don't matter to me as much as the fact that we got a Wing Commander movie! Right now, that's more than the Doom Community can say, or the Return Castle Wolfenstein...certainly more than the Freespace community. What's more, the movie is a fun enjoyable flick. In this thread I was merely stating one of those list of things that I don't like...the Rapier in the movie looks like a POS. So what, The A-6 Corsair looks like a POS but that's too bad...it got the job done. It doesn't HAVE to look appealing...it was functional.

 

[Edfilho]

There is something not particular to the movie that really confuses me... Blair is sent for the first time for the Tiger's Claw three times... On the the first game, one in the TV series and one in the movie. Each one of these is the first time... and the ship is also different the three times. I don't hate academy and the movie for this or anything, and I'm sure there is some convoluted explanation for that... But I'm really confused by this.

 

[FlashFire82]

I think we can chalk that up to the perils of turning a computer game into a movie. Remember - it's not like there even WAS a Christopher "Maverick" Blair when WC1 was first conceived. Starting with Wing Commander 3, they created the standardized name for a character that already existed (a necessity with FMV), and then made it retroactive. Since Chris Roberts directly created this movie... I almost think that he was over-ruling the WC1 way of Blair's arrival. But honestly? I bet he didn't give it a second thought. It was just easier to introduce the character that way in the movie.

 

[Fruitcake]

sir yes sir

I think you just screwed up that Confed Promotion that finally came through.

 

[Edfilho]

I think we can chalk that up to the perils of turning a computer game into a movie. Remember - it's not like there even WAS a Christopher "Maverick" Blair when WC1 was first conceived. Starting with Wing Commander 3, they created the standardized name for a character that already existed (a necessity with FMV), and then made it retroactive. Since Chris Roberts directly created this movie... I almost think that he was over-ruling the WC1 way of Blair's arrival. But honestly? I bet he didn't give it a second thought. It was just easier to introduce the character that way in the movie.

I don't know if he overruled blair's first time on the TC. Not to mention that "he" isn't even Chris Roberts, who didn't write the games after the 1st one.

Anyway, concerning the player's name, he got called "Carl LaFong" in the official Guide for Wc 1and 2. Ugh.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

There is something not particular to the movie that really confuses me... Blair is sent for the first time for the Tiger's Claw three times... On the the first game, one in the TV series and one in the movie. Each one of these is the first time... and the ship is also different the three times. I don't hate academy and the movie for this or anything, and I'm sure there is some convoluted explanation for that... But I'm really confused by this.

Does he? Think about it.

In the first episode of Wing Commander Academy, Tolwyn tells Blair and Maniac that they're going to be assigned to the Tiger's Claw.

The movie starts with Blair and Maniac actually going to the Tiger's Claw on Paladin's ship, after (presumably) having been assigned there.

... and when the original game starts, Blair and Maniac are already on the Tiger's Claw.

There's a big tendency to want to say "this is how it started" each time... but the only time we actually see them definitively start out on the 'Claw is in the movie.

(This isn't actually true: there's a cutscene of the shuttle from Bioforge landing at the start of Super Wing Commander -- which is presumably Armstrong landing there for the first time.)

Anyway, concerning the player's name, he got called "Carl LaFong" in the official Guide for Wc 1and 2. Ugh.

And he gets called 'dipstick' by the mouth movement script in the original game.

 

[Edfilho]

Does he? Think about it.

In the first episode of Wing Commander Academy, Tolwyn tells Blair and Maniac that they're going to be assigned to the Tiger's Claw.

The movie starts with Blair and Maniac actually going to the Tiger's Claw on Paladin's ship, after (presumably) having been assigned there.

... and when the original game starts, Blair and Maniac are already on the Tiger's Claw.

There's a big tendency to want to say "this is how it started" each time... but the only time we actually see them definitively start out on the 'Claw is in the movie.

(This isn't actually true: there's a cutscene of the shuttle from Bioforge landing at the start of Super Wing Commander -- which is presumably Armstrong landing there for the first time.)

I see... And I get it. But this is all some kind of retcon... even though they're already on the TC when WC1 starts, when the game was made it was probably meant to be their first moments. I'm not argueing, because one way or another the 3 sources mentioned are canon. So everything that happend in the game, the cartoon and the movie officially happened in the WCU. Nevertheless, the not-so-smooth fit of the 3 works is sometimes annoying and confusing.

But tell me one thing. They are cadets on the Tiger's Claw in academy... they aren't full pilots yet, and they are students under the tutorship (for lack of a better word) of Commodore Tolwyn... then they go back somewhere and return to the Claw in the movie to start their active duty? And then when the game begins, they're there already, continuing thei tour of duty that started in the movie?

Some questions: Where were the veteran full pilots during the Claw's school tour? they're there? Did the claw actually get detached for school duty or the cadets were along the "regular" operations?

I'm not presenting these as arguments against the movie or the cartoon, I just want to know how things went according to the sources.

And he gets called 'dipstick' by the mouth movement script in the original game.

Ouch. But dipstick is better than "Carl 'Prankster' LaFong". Even Armstrong is better. But Chris Blair is the best, really.

BTW, why is "todd" so terrible in that WC4.1823771 parody?

 

[LeHah]

We could chalk up "LaFong" as Blair just wanting to use a pen name.

 

[Luck]

The Pilgrim Stars retcon is that they're two wholly separate fighters. It fits well with the background from the handbook -- the movie Rapier (CF-117) is a hundred years old and about to leave service... it's also supported by a reference in the Kilrathi Saga manual to the fact that the F-44 is the "Rapier II"... ie, the second fighter to be called Rapier. (For those unfamiliar with the convoluted 2654 timeline, the movie takes place in March and the Rapier II is introduced in the Kursawa Series of Wing Commander (1) in October.)

Isn't the Rapier Mk. I the one from WC1 and the Mk. II from WC2?

...I'm also not a fan of righteous indignation. "WHY DID THEY CHANGE THE FIGHTERS????" is silly. You may not like them, and *that* is a perfectly reasonable issue to have... but pretending to be offended because the movie didn't have ten pixel by ten pixel green blobs flying around is ridiculous.

I assume this is in reference to my original post. I wasn't offended by the Rapiers and I didn't hate the movie. I enjoyed it, I just was confused about why they deviated so far from the original ships in the game. I wasn't trying to bash the movie or anything. Just looking for some clarification from a WC fan's standpoint is all.

WC was the first computer game I owned (I was 10 when I got it) and I've played and re-played most of the games for the last 14 years. The last thing I intend to do is insult the creative genius of Chris Roberts and all things WC. I love it all, I just have had that nagging question since I originally saw the movie.

SO ALL YOU WC NEWBIES, POST THIS IN YOUR FORUMS:

GO SEE WING COMMANDER: THE MOVIE! IT ROCKS!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

BTW, why is "todd" so terrible in that WC4.1823771 parody?

Hehe -- it's just sort of a silly name... the sort of thing a little kid in one of those circa 1950 'learn to read' books. Todd found a duck! Go, Todd, go!

(Not sure what the problem with Carl is, though.)

I see... And I get it. But this is all some kind of retcon... even though they're already on the TC when WC1 starts, when the game was made it was probably meant to be their first moments. I'm not argueing, because one way or another the 3 sources mentioned are canon. So everything that happend in the game, the cartoon and the movie officially happened in the WCU. Nevertheless, the not-so-smooth fit of the 3 works is sometimes annoying and confusing.

I'm not really sure it's a retcon (in the negative sense of the word). The original Wing Commander starts in the Tiger's Claw's lounge... the intent was either to imply that Blair was born in the lounge and has just now achieved consciousness or that he must have arrived there from somewhere else.

Now, they probably didn't intend for the story of his arrival on the 'Claw to involve Qusars and Snakeirs... but everyone who played the original Wing Commander must have known through implication that Blair must have gotten to the ship somehow.

But tell me one thing. They are cadets on the Tiger's Claw in academy... they aren't full pilots yet, and they are students under the tutorship (for lack of a better word) of Commodore Tolwyn... then they go back somewhere and return to the Claw in the movie to start their active duty? And then when the game begins, they're there already, continuing thei tour of duty that started in the movie?

It's sort of confusing. According to the press release, 'Wing Commander Academy' is the proper noun - it's a special command school for promising young officers. It's *not* the same as the TCSF on Hilthros. Blair/Maniac/etc. have already graduated from 'the Academy' in the traditional sense, and the series opens at Flight School on Sirius. Then the show, which takes place a bit later in 2654 (after the movie, after part of the original game) is about learning the responsibility of command and such.

Some questions: Where were the veteran full pilots during the Claw's school tour? they're there? Did the claw actually get detached for school duty or the cadets were along the "regular" operations?

I think the implication is that there aren't really any onboard until later in the series -- after 'Chain of Command' (timeline order), the survivors from the Trafalgar transfer onboard and occasionally show up as 'veteran' pilots. (They talk about them specifically during the briefing in 'Recreation' -- the 'veterans' are happy about going to Oasis. They refuse to fly with Maniac in 'Invisible Enemy'... and then one of them dies on Blair's wing in 'Price of Victory'.)

Isn't the Rapier Mk. I the one from WC1 and the Mk. II from WC2?

The roman numeral designates a whole new design -- the letter after the designation is what specifies a new model. The ship in the original game is the F-44A Rapier II, the one in Wing Commander 2 is the F-44G Rapier II (We also see the F-44C model in End Run).

A good modern equivalent is the A-10. It's the "A-10 Thunderbolt II" -- the original Thunderbolt was a World War II fighter (the P-47).

I assume this is in reference to my original post. I wasn't offended by the Rapiers and I didn't hate the movie. I enjoyed it, I just was confused about why they deviated so far from the original ships in the game. I wasn't trying to bash the movie or anything. Just looking for some clarification from a WC fan's standpoint is all.

Sorry, didn't mean to refer to your post specifically -- it's just a common sentiment. I wasn't actually thinking about how this thread began.

 

[Luck]

Ok, understood. And, in contrast to all the griping about the movie, I'd like to say it had some really cool elements to it. What sticks out in my mind are the jump sequences where everything freezes for a second. It's something we never got to see as Chris Blair in the WC games.

 

[FlashFire82]

I still say we're over-analyzing. Our behavior reminds me of Star Wars fans and desperately trying to make the entire universe fit together through the amalgamation of authors, directors, producers, etc. I have to admit though, LOAF is pretty good at this "reasoning out" the discrepencies... my hats off to you, but I still believe we're just trying to justify errors.

 

[LeHah]

And it sounds like you're justifying acting like an ostrich

 

[McGruff]

(They don't actually meet for the first time in the movie -- they talk about having been at the Academy together -- "I don't see any of those Hornets we flew back at...")

That quote does not necessarily mean that Blair and Maniac were in the same academy class when it was mentioned in the movie. It's been established elsewhere that they in fact were, but the movie makes it pretty clear that in it they are meeting for the first time. If two old fogies are talking about how these new fangled calculators are nothing like the slide rules we used to use in school, it doesn't mean that they were in the same class, or even the same state. Hornets may have been universally used for training during that time period.

"Reasoning out discrepencies" is the glue that holds together just about every science fiction franchise that I can think of, but if the makers of an established TV show, movie series, or line of games blatantly disregard history and events that have become canon, it's justified for fans to be put off. It killed Enterprise, and the movie fiasco is a major reason why Wing Commander is no longer alive in an official capacity.

If you try hard enough, you can come up with some kind of rationalization for any bad writing whether is discrepencies in Star Trek warp factors, Blair and Maniac meeting twice for the first time, Blair flying his first combat mission alongside Spirit who is nowhere around when he flies his first combat mission in the animated series, or the damaged movie fighter plummeting off the flight deck as if there was gravity in outer space. If the WC movie did not have the Wing Commander name attached to it, I would just consider it one of thousands of mediocre films and put it out of my mind, but it's the taint it left behind on an otherwise outstanding (though imperfect) series that makes me hate it. No amount of rationalization can change that it dreadfully written and acted, and just does not have that special something that makes Wing Commander, well, Wing Commander.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That quote does not necessarily mean that Blair and Maniac were in the same academy class when it was mentioned in the movie. It's been established elsewhere that they in fact were, but the movie makes it pretty clear that in it they are meeting for the first time. If two old fogies are talking about how these new fangled calculators are nothing like the slide rules we used to use in school, it doesn't mean that they were in the same class, or even the same state. Hornets may have been universally used for training during that time period.

Maniac and Blair are clearly friends when the movie starts. There's no 'intro scene' where they meet eachother... the movie opens with them together on the Diligent (Maniac's first line is "Hey, Captain wants you on the bridge, says it's top priority.").

Maniac taunts Blair on the Diligent -- "Not bad for the second best pilot at the Academy!"... and then when they arrive on the Tiger's Claw he refers to Blair as "B" and introduces him as "the second best pilot in this hunk of junk." When Hunter gets ready to beat up B Blair, Maniac is about to step in...

... and then Blair and Maniac have a heart to heart in their quarters. "Remember back at the Academy, you promised me you'd taek that thing off." -- referring to the Pilgrim Cross.

They're clearly old buddies in the movie.

"Reasoning out discrepencies" is the glue that holds together just about every science fiction franchise that I can think of, but if the makers of an established TV show, movie series, or line of games blatantly disregard history and events that have become canon, it's justified for fans to be put off. It killed Enterprise, and the movie fiasco is a major reason why Wing Commander is no longer alive in an official capacity.

See, people making up stuff like this is awful. You have absolutely no idea how the money behind Star Trek or Wing Commander worked... and now you're telling a message board full of people that you do. The movie didn't kill Wing Commander -- they developed Privateer Online for a year afterwards... Earth and Beyond and poor sales for space sims killed the series (for now -- but if you truly believe it's gone forever, you're doing more harm than good here.)

(And yes, we are oft to reason out discrepencies -- but we haven't in this thread. The Rapier explanation comes from a Wing Commander novel, not from elaborate fan discussion.)