Wing Commander: The Movie- What Happened?

[FlashFire82]

And it sounds like you're justifying acting like an ostrich

I do not understand what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to confuse me...

I'm often guilty of being a "Doomsday", but I'm really a Wing Commander purist. I'm encouraged by some great fan projects, but every time I play one, even the brilliantly done "Privateer Remake", it just doesn't feel right. The engine just feels wrong... the speed wrong, always either too fast or too slow. I bought a new flight stick just before downloading the remake, and while I was impressed, it still didn't feel right.

Furthermore, I find myself fitting the role of devil's advocate. I'm a huge fan of the series (despite accusations that I'm secretly trying to bring the whole thing down), but I enjoy a realistic outlook on things. And sometimes, these conversation about why the square peg doesn't fit in the round hole just end up making me laugh at myself and those around me. I still maintain that no great thought was put into why certain things never fit together just right.

Some people here made a very good reasoning about how it's possible that the versions of how Blair and Maniac got on the Tiger's Claw together could work in all three variants at the same time, but I simply know that such a thing was never conceived of. Face it... when you're playing WC1, you're INTRODUCED to Maniac. In the movie, Blair and Maniac have never SEEN the Tiger's Claw, and in the academy series, they're stationed aboard the Tiger's Claw in a modern version of Midshipman's tour. Face it, the puzzle doesn't fit together, it was never MEANT to fit together, and there's no sense trying to shave the pieces to MAKE them fit together.

Personally, I think it's okay that my favorite game in the entire world is flawed by little errors...

 

[McGruff]

See, people making up stuff like this is awful. You have absolutely no idea how the money behind Star Trek or Wing Commander worked... and now you're telling a message board full of people that you do. The movie didn't kill Wing Commander -- they developed Privateer Online for a year afterwards... Earth and Beyond and poor sales for space sims killed the series (for now -- but if you truly believe it's gone forever, you're doing more harm than good here.)

I'm not pretending to be privy to the inner workings of EA or Paramount, but I do know that as you peel off the onion what you come down to is that they make a product to make money - a product makes money if people buy tickets and CD's and action figures. Star Trek has a fan base umpteen times bigger than Wing Commander but the latest incarnation didn't make it because there really wasn't a whole lot of care put into making it. Very much like the WC movie, which is what comes to mind to most non-gamers when you mention Wing Commander. I really hope that Wing Commander comes back to life, would I be at the CIC if I didn't? But if it's going to, it's going to have to go back to its roots.

Face it, the puzzle doesn't fit together, it was never MEANT to fit together, and there's no sense trying to shave the pieces to MAKE them fit together.

Amen

 

[FlashFire82]

Why am I nervous that the "Forever Cadet" agrees with me?

 

[FlashFire82]

But if it's going to, it's going to have to go back to its roots.

Hm... now there's an intriguing idea... something that I've supported for a long time and something that I'm glad to see that the Privateer Remake is pursuing. Trying to update the "roots" of Wing Commander to modern day machines. I believe that the reason that Wing Commander was so wildly popular was the right mix that they had hit inside of it. Now sometimes they experimented with that mix... Privateer 2... while entertaining, screwed up with the mix and suffered for it. Armada... don't get me started. Great idea, poor execution.

I think the most frustrating part is that fan projects will forever be mainly amongst the already existing fan base. Game companies now need to step up to fill the void. Freelancer came close, in my opinion...

My only fear of a new WC game is that I might hate it. My fear is that I will play the game, realize that this is NOTHING like the Wing Commander I grew up with, and put it away....

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Some people here made a very good reasoning about how it's possible that the versions of how Blair and Maniac got on the Tiger's Claw together could work in all three variants at the same time, but I simply know that such a thing was never conceived of. Face it... when you're playing WC1, you're INTRODUCED to Maniac. In the movie, Blair and Maniac have never SEEN the Tiger's Claw, and in the academy series, they're stationed aboard the Tiger's Claw in a modern version of Midshipman's tour. Face it, the puzzle doesn't fit together, it was never MEANT to fit together, and there's no sense trying to shave the pieces to MAKE them fit together.

Point of order, though, Wing Commander Academy isn't about their time at the academy -- it's a command school of sorts, and all the episodes on the Tiger's Claw (2-13) take place *after* the movie. The idea is that they're competing for command of a wing of cadets, which is what the medal ceremony at the end of Glory of Sivar is all about.

I did a timeline skeleton that breaks down everything fairly well: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/skeleton.htm (I believe it's wrong about one WCA episode, though -- "The Last One Left" should go in early April '54.)

I'm not pretending to be privy to the inner workings of EA or Paramount, but I do know that as you peel off the onion what you come down to is that they make a product to make money - a product makes money if people buy tickets and CD's and action figures. Star Trek has a fan base umpteen times bigger than Wing Commander but the latest incarnation didn't make it because there really wasn't a whole lot of care put into making it. Very much like the WC movie, which is what comes to mind to most non-gamers when you mention Wing Commander. I really hope that Wing Commander comes back to life, would I be at the CIC if I didn't? But if it's going to, it's going to have to go back to its roots.

Except you're in a tiny "angry internet" box -- the fact that SUPAKILLA42069 hates the fact that Enterprise doesn't have big space battles isn't why corporate decisions are made (heck, look at the current season -- SUPAKILLA42069 will tell you that all the blatant fanboyism is Season 4 scripts is amazingly great... show's still dead). The tiny minority of people who care about continuity error A in main bus B *do not matter*.

And again, I would argue that Wing Commander is not recognized as a bad movie -- it's simply not recognized at all... the movie wasn't universally loathed, it just wasn't seen at all.

It is very, very hard to prove a connection between Wing Commander "dying" and the commercial failure of the movie. The Prophecy team was laid off *before* the movie came out... and Privateer Online was brought back and developed *after* the movie came out. The movie cost EA nothing. All they suffered was a lack of publicity...

(I won't pretend to know about the inner workings of Paramount in the way I do EA, but I am fairly sure that a lot of the problems with Star Trek *financially* have to do with some pretty restrictive marketing practices on Paramounts practice in recent years than it does whether or not Klingons have ridges. After the big resurgence in interest in the early-mid 90s, Paramount decided they wanted to have their cake and everyone elses when it came to Star Trek... and things like action figures/comics/sourcebooks/etc. became more and more expensive to license. That eventually lead to companies deciding they couldn't profit by doing action figures/comics/whatevers, and it became more and more a niche market... and with it went a lot of interest from average fans.)

Also, re: fan projects. PLAY STANDOFF! It is stylistic, it's respectful, it's well written and it's fun. Privateer Remake is great for bringing awareness about Privateer -- but most of us already play the original.

 

[FlashFire82]

Point of order, though, Wing Commander Academy isn't about their time at the academy -- it's a command school of sorts, and all the episodes on the Tiger's Claw (2-13) take place *after* the movie. The idea is that they're competing for command of a wing of cadets, which is what the medal ceremony at the end of Glory of Sivar is all about.

Hey the system works when you forget about the game, right? Slight problem here, yes... it is a command school of sorts. It's Midshipman duty... a Midshipman historically was an officer in training. But in the movie, they're 2nd Lieutenants... never mind the fact that in the game they've never met before.

 

[FlashFire82]

It is very, very hard to prove a connection between Wing Commander "dying" and the commercial failure of the movie. The Prophecy team was laid off *before* the movie came out... and Privateer Online was brought back and developed *after* the movie came out. The movie cost EA nothing. All they suffered was a lack of publicity...

And by the way... here I agree with you. Lack of publicity is a killer, and publicity is the first thing to go when a company is heading south a little. They cut their strings, chose Wing Commander to die next, and went on to more marketable games. Looking around... I think we'll all notice the the Space Flight genre is pretty weak right now. There were some interesting projects, but the only thing I think of as remotely succesful were Freespace 1 & 2, and Freelancer... and heck... playing Freespace felt like playing Wing Commander with those controls!!!

[EDIT!!]

And also... it's my opinion started to slip with the end of the Kilrathi. Those were truly the glory days of the game, and Wing Commander 4 did a great job of continuing the game without the war, but after that... it felt like a generic space shooter. Prophecy did not feel like Wing Commander to me, even though it was the most like Wing Commander 1 of any of the sequels produced. I think maybe that's where the problem lies...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Hey the system works when you forget about the game, right? Slight problem here, yes... it is a command school of sorts. It's Midshipman duty... a Midshipman historically was an officer in training. But in the movie, they're 2nd Lieutenants... never mind the fact that in the game they've never met before.

They're not midshipmen, though. From the press kit: "In the Wing commander Academy, 12 cadets hold the rank of 2nd Lieutenant. At the end of their tour, the oustanding cadet leader receives the "Wing Commander" designation and an insignia of gold wings reaching the first step towards 'flag rank.' They've already completed their TCSFA studies and Flight School... it's more of a promising young officers program.

(Blair and Maniac did have a middie cruise -- on the TCS Formidable. It's mentioned in the original Wing Commander, and described in some detail in the Ultimate Guide to Wing Commander I & II.)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And by the way... here I agree with you. Lack of publicity is a killer, and publicity is the first thing to go when a company is heading south a little. They cut their strings, chose Wing Commander to die next, and went on to more marketable games. Looking around... I think we'll all notice the the Space Flight genre is pretty weak right now. There were some interesting projects, but the only thing I think of as remotely succesful were Freespace 1 & 2, and Freelancer... and heck... playing Freespace felt like playing Wing Commander with those controls!!!

Freespace 2 was a horrible failure in the market - it sold less than 5% what Wing Commander Prophecy did... and Prophecy didn't do amazingly well (and Freespace 2 was marketed as a 'Wing Commander killer'). Freespace 2 has a lot more to do with the 'death' of the space sim genre than the Wing Commander movie could.

The other thing that contributed to the lack of interest in Wing Commander was Ultima Online. UO outsold EA's wildest expectations -- so it eventually was decided that Origin would develop MMP-only games... the fact that another EA subsidary (Westwood) was developing their own Privateer-style MMPRPG (Earth and Beyond) forced EA to choose between the two projects.

(EA didn't pay a cent for the Wing Commander movie -- Chris developed it with money raised from FOX and Microsoft. No matter what happened, it wasn't a loss for them.)

 

[FlashFire82]

Then we have a much bigger problems... Cadets do not "hold" higher ranks. 2nd Lieutenants hold a commission, and a battlefield commission is plausible, as well as an "acting" 2nd Lieutenant... but in the series they're referred to as "cadets", and that makes them cadets.

Also... even if you do interpret them to be butterbar's (2LTs), it changes nothing of the timeline fitting!

PS - I'm not being hostile... just logical. Love ya'll!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Then we have a much bigger problems... Cadets do not "hold" higher ranks. 2nd Lieutenants hold a commission, and a battlefield commission is plausible, as well as an "acting" 2nd Lieutenant... but in the series they're referred to as "cadets", and that makes them cadets.

Also... even if you do interpret them to be butterbar's (2LTs), it changes nothing of the timeline fitting!

PS - I'm not being hostile... just logical. Love ya'll!

Blair went to the Terran Confederation Space Forces Academy on Hilthros. He graduated with the Class of 2654 as a Second Lieutenant. After that, he went to the Terran Confederation Space Forces Flight School on Sirius, where he did his advanced flight training. After he was already an officer he (and Maniac, and a few other promising graduates from the Class of 2654) were selected for command training... and that's what he's doing in Wing Commander Academy. They're already Second Lieutenants -- they're just referred to as 'cadet' while serving in this program. That probably doesn't make sense in any sort of modern military context, but it was Wing Commander Academy's conceit from day one, not some sort of modern retroactive continuity.

 

[Edfilho]

Wow... it IS confusing but the skeletor (MWAHAHAHAHA) timeline helps a bit. I just wonder why couldn't they make new stuff without messing so much with the older works.

And, sure blair did arive at Shotglass Bar somehow. Just that all of us who played the game for the first time in 1990 didn't have any reason not to believe that those were <insert name> first moments in the Claw. The dialogue helped us think that, even if it doesn't prove that now that we have other sources.

BTW, how did you get to the dates in Academy? are they stated in the series?

And where were angel, spirit, bossman, iceman etc in those episodes between WC1 missions?

Again, I'm just ASKING, i'm not argueing. I have no problem with all official products being canon etc etc.

 

[Nemesis]

. . .I find myself fitting the role of devil's advocate. . . .I enjoy a realistic outlook on things. . . .Face it, the puzzle doesn't fit together, it was never MEANT to fit together, and there's no sense trying to shave the pieces to MAKE them fit together.

It’s fun. (And in that respect it is its own form of gaming.) That’s all the “sense” it has to make, though it clearly makes more.

If you want to challenge any of the explanations offered to account for inconsistencies among the sources of canon, that’s great. But to otherwise question that many of us should want to try to harmonize the story lines is no different from trashing someone for liking Wing Commander to begin with.

 

[FlashFire82]

It’s fun. (And in that respect it is its own form of gaming.) That’s all the “sense” it has to make, though it clearly makes more.

If you want to challenge any of the explanations offered to account for inconsistencies among the sources of canon, that’s great. But to otherwise question that many of us should want to try to harmonize the story lines is no different from trashing someone for liking Wing Commander to begin with.

I LOVE Wing Commander... I run an RPG almost twice a week with my friends... they love it too... but sometimes I just think we're being silly when we try to "force" the puzzle to fit together.

 

[FlashFire82]

The dialogue helped us think that, even if it doesn't prove that now that we have other sources.

By the way.. my memory's a bit rusty on this... but doesn't the first time you're speaking to Shotglass have the line "You're new here, aren't you?" ?


It's not "Helping" us think those are the first moments... they WERE the first moments!

 

[Nemesis]

I LOVE Wing Commander... I run an RPG almost twice a week with my friends . . . but sometimes I just think we're being silly when we try to "force" the puzzle to fit together.

Well, if you said you just didn’t find it fun or interesting, that would be one thing. But silly? Now that doesn’t make any sense. If our trying to harmonize a story line is silly to you, then I fail to see how your playing an RPG (which you say you “LOVE")–pretending you’re someone else, somewhere else, and sometime else–isn’t even more silly. Sure looks like you’re being inconsistent. Care to explain? Or would that be “silly” too?

 

[McGruff]

Why am I nervous that the "Forever Cadet" agrees with me?

Sorry, my bad, I'll try to be more careful in the future

It does seem though that I might be making some people a little nervous:

PS - I'm not being hostile... just logical. Love ya'll!

Again, I'm just ASKING, i'm not argueing. I have no problem with all official products being canon etc etc.

Don't worry, I'm the only one who has to walk on glass around here

 

[Bandit LOAF]

BTW, how did you get to the dates in Academy? are they stated in the series?

Like the novels (and Wing Commander 4), you can figure out most of the dates given one point of reference... in the case of Academy (and Fleet Action!), it's the annual Sivar-Eshrad ceremony.

And where were angel, spirit, bossman, iceman etc in those episodes between WC1 missions?

Same place the other 95+ Tiger's Claw pilots are in the original game -- on the ship, but not part of the player's squadron.

 

[FlashFire82]

Well, if you said you just didn’t find it fun or interesting, that would be one thing. But silly? Now that doesn’t make any sense. If our trying to harmonize a story line is silly to you, then I fail to see how your playing an RPG (which you say you “LOVE")–pretending you’re someone else, somewhere else, and sometime else–isn’t even more silly. Sure looks like you’re being inconsistent. Care to explain? Or would that be “silly” too?

The only thing silly is trying to harmonize storylines that are inconsistent. Didn't we use to say that if something conflicted with the games that the games always took precedence when determining what was cannon and what was not? So how come we can't simply say that the game is cannon, the other materials, while being fun and interesting additions to the storyline, where they conflict, the game takes precedence.

Heck... for the Wing Commander RPG I made everything even much simpler... I removed Blair from the storyline all together (ah... the power of the game master). It's kind of hard to play a game about heroes when you're living in the shadow of a VERY LARGE HERO.

And by the way... to Nemesis - lay off the ad homonem. That's latin for "To the person". In other words, if you have a debate to make, make it without personal attacks please...

 

[Eder]

Didn't we use to say that if something conflicted with the games that the games always took precedence when determining what was cannon and what was not?

Define "we".