Wing Commander Saga Project

I banned someone who registered an account simply to post trolling messages (check his profile). He did not post anything intelligent on the subject -- he just acted immature. I'm happy to -- and have -- argue intelligently on this subject (or any other).

But lets get something straight....

Disagreeing about something means bringing up points, talking about things, explaining why you think your opinion is right. It *DOES NOT INVOLVE* any of the following:

- Claiming that you're "taking the higher moral ground", and therefore are right. Newsflash: when it comes to fighting about which space combat game is better *there is no higher moral ground*. You're just disagreeing in a manner that involves not using actual thought.
- Sarcastic, stupid messages that bring absolutely nothing to the table. If you think "WELL YOU ARE RONG BECAUSE U R STUPID!!!!!" is a proper response to anything, I invite you to leave.
- Claiming that you are somehow being *oppressed* because someone doesn't agree with you. Newsflash again: people everywhere don't agree with you. This doesn't mean they hate you, or that they will do horrible things to you or anything of the sort. It means that they have a different opinion. Thus "Oh, I'm so horrified that people agree with me, I just can't stay here anymore" is really, really, really, really (really) dumb.
 
Ok well then lets make a real discusion.

Post like this:
I think ... is better because:
reason a:
reason b:
etc.

Don't post it's just a copy of and thats why it's bad, because there are other much older games with the same idea.

If this topic is only about the ripoff thing, stop, please.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I think we've explained pretty clearly why Freespace is a WC ripoff... but once again: it is a game designed to make money off of WC's familiar design.

Can anyone come up with a reason why this *isn't* true, other than dumb sarcastic remarks that lack any actual content?
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You are using an interesting definition for "rip-off". All commercial games are "designed to make money". Are all games in the same genre then rip-offs of the first game in the genre? After all, they all leverage design conventions established by the archetype, whether it is DOOM, Dune, or Defender.

Merriam-Webster defines "rip-off" as "a usually cheap exploitive imitation." I think this captures the connotations of rip-off better than your definition. A rip-off is cheap: it brings nothing new to the table and is of inherently low quality. A rip-off is exploitive: it treads heavily on the reputation of the original. It attempts unjustly to pass off the new work as an original creation when it is in fact merely a copy. And it is exploitive because it attempts to fool the buyer into purchasing something that is less than what is advertised, less than the "real McCoy."

Is Freespace a rip-off? I don't think this can be answered with a black-and-white yes or no. Freespace is not of low quality, and it has what Volition thought at the time would be an original story. Freespace is based heavily on the design conventions of WC, but it also refines and extends them in subtle ways that have been mentioned already in this thread.

I can say that I personally did not feel ripped-off when I played either of the Freespace games.

I can also say that I personally would not be particularly interested in playing a WC Mod for Freespace. What would be the point? Wouldn't that be like modding Quake to use Unreal characters (or vice versa)?
 
You can't cut a sentence in half and then make any sort of claim -- Freespace is designed to make money off of the fact that it's like Wing Commander. In so doing, it fits your dictionary definition...
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
You can't cut a sentence in half and then make any sort of claim -- Freespace is designed to make money off of the fact that it's like Wing Commander. In so doing, it fits your dictionary definition...
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So according to your argument, if there had been no Wing Commander, then Freespace would either look very, very different, or not exist at all?
The only real exploitation that I see in Freespace is in the naming of the original game - Descent: Freespace - and while it is rather blatant, that has nothing to do with Wing Commander. Yes, there are similarities between the different games, but there have been similiarites between different games even when they've been from completely different genres. The games have very different in-game feels, the ships look very different, the method of storytelling is entirely different, and the list goes on. About the only similarity I see between the two series is that both series feature an unknown alien race that is invading the human sphere with red ships, that ships shoot things, and that carriers are involved. Mind you, the first item on the list only pops up in the last Wing Commander game.
If you're going to go looking that hard, then Starcraft must be a Wing Commander rip-off as well.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
You can't cut a sentence in half and then make any sort of claim -- Freespace is designed to make money off of the fact that it's like Wing Commander. In so doing, it fits your dictionary definition...
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But I haven't made a claim based on that sentence, I have posed a question to you: Are all commercial games in the same genre rip-offs of the archetype for that genre? Are all side scrollers rip-offs of Defender? Are all isometric RTS games rip-offs of Dune?

Wing Commander was designed to make money off the fact that it's like George Lucas' Star Wars and Larry Niven's Man-Kzinti war stories. Is Wing Commander then also a rip-off?

The one claim I will make regarding Freespace is that it does not fit the dictionary definition of rip-off because it is not "cheap" (which I interpret to mean "of substandard quality").
 
Yes, I would definately say that Wing Commander is a ripoff of Star Wars and that the Kilrathi are a ripoff of the Kzinti (with the caveat that the Kzinti had not been particularly fleshed out in 1990).

Heck, they supposedly tried to license Star Wars years ago after the initial concept for WC was thought up...

I wouldn't say that about those other games -- both are a bit extreme. Certain games are obviously ripoffs of others, though -- Commander Keen is a Mario ripoff, any of the gazillion RTS games that appeared a few years back were ripoffs of C&C... they're games that base themselves directly off a competitor, but don't do as a great a job as the original.
 
That's the problem. Rip-off denotes certain aspects that simply aren't present in any of those cases.
Do the games have certain elements that are present elsewhere?
Yes.
But the vast majority of English speaking individuals would look for a lot more similiarity between any of the items listed before writing them all off as "rip-offs". It implies a certain level of cheapness and desire to make a "quick buck" that isn't present. To rip off an individual means to promise certain things, receive payment for such, and then not deliver on your promises. A rip off game should promise a different experience, and then not deliver, primarily due to elements lifted in entirety out of the initial product. I simply don't see this in any of the examples listed.

Yes, Star Raiders is (to the best of my knowledge) the original space combat sim, and yes, it has many of the same elements that are present in Wing Commander, X-Wing, Freespace, and other games of the genre. But to call them a rip-off of Star Raiders is a gross mis-use of the English language.
 
to call anything a true rip-off is objectionable, at best. Let's face facts... every new game in a genre is escentially a remake of it's preddicessor, with a few new things here and there. Look at Real-Time Strategy, Space Sims, First Person Shooters... You could, in esscence, claim that each new game is simply a remake of the previous, with different storyline and graphics. Take a look from Dune to Earth 2150: The Moon Project and they look like totally original games. HOWEVER, look at each game in between, and you'll see an evolution, not an innovation.
 
Originally posted by gevatter Lars
...the people here are... You are so fanatic that you act like someone who crosses a road with closed eyes...
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Only some of those who choose to post here appear fanatic. Please don't generalise.

Originally posted by milo
...less than the "real McCoy."
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Nothing beats the Real McCoy. :) Whoops, a bit of nostalgia there...
 
in the oxford american dictionary, a rip off is a fraudulent thing or act. nothing more, nothing less
 
Just because a game is the same genre of another (space sims, first person shooters, action-adventure, sports...), doesnt mean they are rip-offs. If so, the majority of the games would be one.

WC, SW, freespace, tachyon, freelancer...all are space sims with lasers, missiles, wingmans, carriers, destroyers...but that doesnt mean that they're rip-offs from one or another, i mean, to be a space sim, well it has to have all those things, right?

AFAIK. a rip-off is a game that is mostly a copy of another, meaning graphics, storyline, characters and so on, with only minor alterations.

There are although some games that do that with just a few elements tough. :p
 
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