WC1 and WC2 Mod Projects.
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Jeremy Reimer
Spaceman
As someone who is working on one of these "WC1 and WC2 Mod Projects" I'd like to express my point of view on the matter.
Yes, the original game was made in 1990, but the ships were pre-rendered in 3D packages (I think the original was even done on an Amiga) and then "shot" from a variety of angles before being imported into the game. So it wasn't really technology that limited the design in terms of polygons (although in Wing 3 and 4 it definitely was) because the graphics engine didn't know or care how many polys were in the original models-- they were just bitmaps, scaled and rotated.
However, even allowing for technological limitations of the time, I still have a problem in "re-designing" ships from the Wing 1 era just to look "cooler". To me, much of the appeal of the original game was the distinctive shapes of the ships, and because I've played the game so many times, those shapes have left an indelible imprint on my mind. Any new game that calls itself "Wing Commander" but changes the way the ships looks doesn't feel like Wing Commander to me.
This was one of the main problems I had with the movie-- they completely redesigned the Tiger's Claw (and for no apparent reason called it the TIGER Claw) and the Rapiers, to the point that they were no longer even recognizable. To me, it no longer felt like Wing Commander-- I could have been watching any generic science fiction movie at that point. My guess is that they felt "hey, it's a movie, we can redesign the ships the way we want to look COOL!" but I didn't like it. Heroic efforts have been made by WC fans to incorporate the movie into the Wing Commander "canon" but in my mind I try to forget it ever even existed-- it didn't represent the universe I had spent so much time in AT ALL.
So when I work on my models for the Wing 1 total conversion, I have no problem trying to make them look better (in terms of adding more polys, or surface detail via texture maps, or shinemaps, or hopefully even bump maps in a future release of FS2Open) but I will not change the basic design of these ships, because if I did, I might as well make my own designs instead and call them different names and not do a Wing Commander mod at all.
Yes, the original game was made in 1990, but the ships were pre-rendered in 3D packages (I think the original was even done on an Amiga) and then "shot" from a variety of angles before being imported into the game. So it wasn't really technology that limited the design in terms of polygons (although in Wing 3 and 4 it definitely was) because the graphics engine didn't know or care how many polys were in the original models-- they were just bitmaps, scaled and rotated.
However, even allowing for technological limitations of the time, I still have a problem in "re-designing" ships from the Wing 1 era just to look "cooler". To me, much of the appeal of the original game was the distinctive shapes of the ships, and because I've played the game so many times, those shapes have left an indelible imprint on my mind. Any new game that calls itself "Wing Commander" but changes the way the ships looks doesn't feel like Wing Commander to me.
This was one of the main problems I had with the movie-- they completely redesigned the Tiger's Claw (and for no apparent reason called it the TIGER Claw) and the Rapiers, to the point that they were no longer even recognizable. To me, it no longer felt like Wing Commander-- I could have been watching any generic science fiction movie at that point. My guess is that they felt "hey, it's a movie, we can redesign the ships the way we want to look COOL!" but I didn't like it. Heroic efforts have been made by WC fans to incorporate the movie into the Wing Commander "canon" but in my mind I try to forget it ever even existed-- it didn't represent the universe I had spent so much time in AT ALL.
So when I work on my models for the Wing 1 total conversion, I have no problem trying to make them look better (in terms of adding more polys, or surface detail via texture maps, or shinemaps, or hopefully even bump maps in a future release of FS2Open) but I will not change the basic design of these ships, because if I did, I might as well make my own designs instead and call them different names and not do a Wing Commander mod at all.
Jeremy Reimer said:
Mr. Reimer,
Despite them using 3D models and then taking snapshots of them and putting them in the games, they still had the color limitations that the 1990 computers had.
The fly-through also couldn't be done as well because of the models just being images of the ships at different angles, not an In-Game 3D-model.
Additionally, the WC1 game and WC2 games had a certain cartoony feel to them. WC3 took it to a whole new level. I want to bring WC1 and WC2 to the level which WC3 held.
If you want a WC3 remake with rounded edges and stuff, that's an idea worth considering, but I think LOAF's drawing of the Victory totally massacred would illustrate some people's view on this.
I do not intend to TOTALLY redesign the entire shapes of the ships. I intend to modify them, but they will preserve the same basic shape.
For WC1 for example
-The Tiger's Claw will still have the wings, and the basic shape. But the flight-deck will basically be covered all the way down. The conning tower will be slightly re-shaped to make it look more like WC3.
-The Exeter will preserve the same basic shape. I just want a flight-deck of some sort. Remember, it does carry several fighters. I just want to reveal it's fighter-capacity.
-The Austin will be shaped loosely after the Exeter and scaled up considerably. I will use the WCM Concordia Supercruiser's length (855 m) as a model to work with, so the ship will have a length around those dimensions. The Supercruiser's main-gun armament will be used as a model, although it will certainly not carry 50 torpedo-tubes.
-The Venture needs a lot more detail. Since it was described in End Run as having turrets, they would be placed one top one bottom. The ship is supposed to have a half-bomber, half ship look. The cockpit the Venture has re-inforces this design. I just think it looks too boxy.
-The Hornet would have some SWC Hornet characteristics in conjunction with the regular WC1's. The thing I have a major objection with is the Hornet's width. That thing has got to be 40 meters wide. The Broadsword, as wide as it seems, is actually about as wide as it is long. Granted for storage you could fold the wings, but for launch, they need to usually be out... unless you want to launch it, and then unfold the wings and get under way... So it seems, the carriers seem to be able to launch two fighters at a time. 1 by 1 by 1 would be a little time consuming.
-The Raptor would be similar to the WC-Standoff one.
-The Rapier would be like a mix from WC1 and WC2. 24 meters long, but it would feature the basic WC2 shape, with the cleaner lines of WC1.
-The Kilrathi Salthi light fighter would be given some Sartha characteristics. Since the Salthi looks very un-agressive looking, un-traditional to kilrathi design. The Sartha looks basically like the Salthi, just more agressive.
-The Dralthi will look somewhat more like the WC: Armada Dralthi 3, except with a centerline cockpit.
-The Jalthi will look almost exactly the same (it's an effective design).
-The Gratha. I'd like it to have some kind of bat-wing type design. It doesn't look like the fang-shape design typically talked about with Kilrathi design. Certain elements will be retained.
-The Ralari would have it's prongs thickened (maybe the whol ship overall) and re-shaped to look more like the Sartha's shape. The outboard part of the "wing" will be re-shaped to have a "dog-tooth" shape. Whether it would have fins or not is to be determined by popularity (whichever everybody likes more). The length will still be 344 meters.
-The Fralthi, while preserving some basic shapes should have a resemblance to a shortened Fralthi II (reduced to 500 meters). The exception is that the side "wings" (it looks more like a wing with a hole in it), on the carrier version would have a flight deck in there and that area would be a lot thicker to accomodate the bays. Basically, thicker wings, and a flight-deck running right through it. You could stuff 20 or 50 fighters in there.
-The Spikeri should be included. For whatever reason. It should be fine as it is, unless someone finds the need to add some sharp edges to it (I think it looks fine).
-Concordia
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
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Spay and neuter your pets, people.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Suggest you search for threads started by Concordia, then.
Concordia said:
Then model those things and see what you come up with.
What you sayin'?
Oh, you can't model in 3D? Now thats a shame
So, from now on stop being a DUMBASS, will ya???
Oh, also, learn to respect the people who are trying to do something nice for the WC community. Your childish, ignorant behaviour is not helping.
Tolwyn
Vice Admiral
Murray said:Then model those things and see what you come up with.
What you sayin'?
Oh, you can't model in 3D? Now thats a shame
So, from now on stop being a DUMBASS, will ya???
Oh, also, learn to respect the people who are trying to do something nice for the WC community. Your childish, ignorant behaviour is not helping.
I have to add that yours does it neither...
or sorry, you wanted to say something?
Murray said:Then model those things and see what you come up with.
What you sayin'?
Oh, you can't model in 3D? Now thats a shame
So, from now on stop being a DUMBASS, will ya???
Oh, also, learn to respect the people who are trying to do something nice for the WC community. Your childish, ignorant behaviour is not helping.
No, the ralari one should be fairly easy. I already have a drawing of it ready. I'm scanning it in.
If anybody wants it, just give me a PM.
It's a rough-draft and needs a lot of work. But the basic shape is there. I need to alter the proportions of it.
I see no major difficulty here as I drew the whole drawing up in what seemed like less than a minute.
-Concordia
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