Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
LeHah said:
The map is the same, IIRC -- the full version (which I'd really like to know the whereabouts of) reads like a stylized version of the WCP map.
wc:m theme
- Thread starter Chevieblazer
- Start date
The map is the same, IIRC -- the full version (which I'd really like to know the whereabouts of) reads like a stylized version of the WCP map.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Did Anti-Matter guns exist at the time of the movie? I thought that they weren't developed until somewhere between WCI and WCII.
Also are you sure about the Gatling Neutron Gun? I thought I read that the movie Rapiers used a Gatling Mass Driver and while the Rapiers in the games used Neutron Guns, the Rapiers in the movie are clearly a different model since the Rapiers in WCI were prototypes and the movie Rapiers have Jump Drives.
Also what type of Torpedoes did the Broadswords carry? They clear weren't Anti-Matter Torpedoes, unless they were an earlier model that lacked Phase Discriminators because they had to wait for the Kilrathi battleship to lower it's shields to launch.
Also are you sure about the Gatling Neutron Gun? I thought I read that the movie Rapiers used a Gatling Mass Driver and while the Rapiers in the games used Neutron Guns, the Rapiers in the movie are clearly a different model since the Rapiers in WCI were prototypes and the movie Rapiers have Jump Drives.
Also what type of Torpedoes did the Broadswords carry? They clear weren't Anti-Matter Torpedoes, unless they were an earlier model that lacked Phase Discriminators because they had to wait for the Kilrathi battleship to lower it's shields to launch.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Yeah, that's the long standing 'fanon' -- that the weapons and ships that were 'new' to players in WC2 had to be entirely new technologies. We know years later that that wasn't true, as more extensive backgrounds for things like Broadswords, torpedoes, anti-matter guns and particle cannons were established. The Ralari, Fralthi and Concordia-class ships seen in the movie all mount Anti-Matter Guns -- so the weapon must have been around in 2654.
Yes, I'm sure. The Confederation Handbook, p.25: "Duel-Pulse Rotary Barrel Neutron Gun (forward)".
The Rapiers are entirely unrelated -- the ship in the movie is the aging CF-117 Rapier... the ship in the game, introduced later, is the F-44 Rapier II. The Roman numeral designates an entirely new spaceframe -- like how the P-47 Thunderbolt and the A-10 Thunderbolt II are unrelated in real life.
They were antimatter torpedoes. From the Handbook again: "In 2648 all in-service Broadswords were upgraded to mount two antimatter torpedoes...". The 'antimatter' in 'antimatter torpedo' describes its warhead, not its locking mechanism.
BrynS
Mr Kat says...
Loaf, does the Confed Handbook have schematics for the Broadsword? I was watching the movie again recently and recall that Paladin's Broadsword launches four torpedoes at the Kilrathi battleship. Is there an explaination in the handbook for the two additional torpedoes?Bandit LOAF said:
Some general Broadsword movie comments
I've been looking at the Broadsword movie footage more closely today and noticed a few things.
1. Firstly, the smaller nose wings, which I hadn't really picked up in the darker scenes before. Loaf, do you know which cockpit and nose section was used for the Broadsword in the same way as the old MiG airframe was hewn for the Rapiers?
2. The Torpedo carriage. For some reason I had always thought that what appears to be the Broadsword's four torpedoes, were fuel pods.
3. Another shot showing the torpedoes. Notice the bracket halfway along the length of each one, which presumably holds them in place, as well as the booster engine and fins at the rear end.
4. I've uploaded a short clip (3.10MB WMV) of Paladin's Broadsword launching it's four torpedoes on the Kilrathi battleship. I've slowed down the actual launch so as to clearly see the detachment process.
5. In this shot showing Paladin's escape from the exploding battleship, his torpedoes seem to have returned!
Cheers,
BrynS
BrynS
Mr Kat says...
Ahh, I'm afraid I must have crossed some wires somewhere. I inferred incorrectly from Loaf's quote further up "From the Handbook again: "In 2648 all in-service Broadswords were upgraded to mount two antimatter torpedoes..." that the Broadsword in the movie only had two torpedo hardpoints. I should have checked the Ships Database first.ChrisReid said:
Cheers,
BrynS
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RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
Now why didn't they have "Duel-Pulse Rotary Barrel Neutron Guns" in the games? I don't remember any of the guns firing as rapidly as the Rapier's guns in the movie.
And I knew that there were earlier designs of the Broadswords and Ferrets that were in use before the original game, and possibly the Sabres as well.
Did they ever explain why they retired the CF-117 Rapiers by the time of the game but kept the CF-105 Scimitars around until midway throught the Secert Missions period? Or how the CF-117's had a jump drive while every other light and medium fighter and most heavy fighters in use before the Prophecy-era ships came online did not have a jump drive?
Also when did the Confed start using shield-penetrating torpedoes? I always thought that they had captured and reverse engineered the technology early in the war. And why didn't the Kilrathi torpedoes pass through the Tiger Claw's shields when the Kilrathi had shield-penetrating torpedoes before the war started?
Dragon1
Rear Admiral
Both sides had shield penetrating torpedoes early in the war. Sometime prior to WC1, Kilrathi and Confed shields were improved (early AS 'phase shields' were replaced with 'meson' shields). Presumably, the weapon technology had not advanced greatly enough to phase penetrate the Meson shields by 2654, during the period of the WC movie, fighter based guns and missiles couldn't damage the shields either (refer to Blair's attempted attack on the ConCom). Although, by the time the events WC1 occured, fighter guns and missiles could damage 'meson shields'. In or around 2657, 'meson shields' were retired or improved for the 'WC2 phase shields', perhaps this is an improvement on the original shielding from AS. Either way, fighter based weapons couldn't damage this variety shielding until 2669.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Because the games were produced within the limits of linear time.
The DPRBNG (there's an e-mouthfull) was created for the 1999 movie... so the series of games whose last installment was produced in 1998 couldn't really be expected to include it. It's a retcon, the life blood of any complex science fiction setting... heck, it's not even the first time it's happened to *guns* in the Wing Commander universe -- later titles have established that Mesons, Photons, Plasma Guns, Particle Cannons, Anti-Matter Guns, etc. were all in service at the time the original game was set.That's correct. We see earlier Broadswords in both the movie and in the Wing Commander Academy series... and the Handbook sets a mid-2630s introduction date for them.
Ferrets are first *seen* in Wing Commander II, but there's a reference to them being in service in 2638 in the Handbook (Paladin's TCS Iason debriefing).
There is a ship on Wing Commander Academy that looks like a Sabre but is never referred to as such in dialogue. If it were a Sabre, it would push their origin back to 2644 (when Damon Karnes went rogue).
I'm not sure anyone claimed they were retired.
We actually see jump drives on Rapier IIs (and Hornets) in Super Wing Commander -- and then we hear about all kinds of ships that we know are in service at this point in history having them later (Ferrets, Broadswords, Sabres, etc.). Limited jump capacity isn't a contradiction.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The Particle Cannon was developed by the Kilrathi around or before the start of the war (Voices of War). The Terran prototype was developed in 2637 after a Kilrathi fighter was captured and reverse engineered (Victory Streak).
The 'modern' version, seen in Wing Commander II, entered service in 2658 (Kilrathi Saga manual)... but the Terran Confederation was fielding them earlier than that -- Broadswords in 2654 mounted a rear firing Particle Cannon (Wing Commander Academy).
--
The 'designed to replace the Neutron Gun' idea in fandom comes from the original quote about the weapon in Wing Commander II's manual: that it had "almost completely replaced neutron guns in the Confederation Navy". Looking back, there's nothing about a design history at all in that statement... and of all the guns, the Particle Cannon has probably since had the most well developed development history created for it.
Speaking of which, what's with the Neutron Gun? Origin spent many, many years trying to kill it in later games... but they kept ending up bringing it back in some form or another.
The 'modern' version, seen in Wing Commander II, entered service in 2658 (Kilrathi Saga manual)... but the Terran Confederation was fielding them earlier than that -- Broadswords in 2654 mounted a rear firing Particle Cannon (Wing Commander Academy).
--
The 'designed to replace the Neutron Gun' idea in fandom comes from the original quote about the weapon in Wing Commander II's manual: that it had "almost completely replaced neutron guns in the Confederation Navy". Looking back, there's nothing about a design history at all in that statement... and of all the guns, the Particle Cannon has probably since had the most well developed development history created for it.
Speaking of which, what's with the Neutron Gun? Origin spent many, many years trying to kill it in later games... but they kept ending up bringing it back in some form or another.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
I knew that the Broadswords had jump drives and I knew that some of the Sabres had jump drives but if fighter jump drives are so common then why is Blair shocked when he see the BW fighters jumping out in the WC IV novel? For that matter why was the Corvette that could open jump points for fighters developed if fighters could jump on their own?