Tolwyn's silly cape in WC2

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I ignored your statement about Axius because you didn't *say* anything about Axius -- you simply repeated that they "were different"... but you didn't say why or how (I already explained about the uniform -- if you need something else explained, please post it <G>).
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Mais non!! Mais non, mais non, mais non!! <G>

I did say something about Axius, and you just went on saying "...now we were complaining that Ben Ohlander *changed* the episode to make sense"... Note LOAF, these are YOUR words, I have allowed myself to put them in italic and ALL CAPS:
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Re: Axius. First, if I might interject a personal comment on this bit -- the *reason* Ohlander changed the novel as he did was because, in 1996, you people were obsessed with ranting about how little sense it made in WCIV for Blair to infiltrate Axius in that manner. So he CHANGED it to "make sense" -- and now you're complaining about that (by you, I mean in general -- not you specifically, mp)!
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LOAF, you just have ADMITTED it!!! He *changed* it!! There is a discrepancy, which just proves my point!!

BTW:

In general, it's also best to refrain from pre-mature "YOU PROVEDED MY POINTedness"... that doesn't get us anywhere...
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I agree, but Barons are stubborn... ;)

Telamon
(...)The point is that the scene can work either with Blair knowing or *not* knowing about the attack -- since all of the questions are different from the novel's 'comm-chat'.
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No, I does notmake sense!! If as you claim, the Intercom link happened before Blair visiting the planet, Blair would have NEVER set foot on Telamon in the first place. Remember the doctor specifically tells him NOT to come on the planet, for risk of being killed himself...

Now Blair is daring, but he is not stupid... He trusts the doctor opinion, and from the novel, it appears as the doctor does not even know if the "virus" (because as you say, he does not mention "nanobots") is contagious or not, hence the WHOLE PLANET is put in quarantine (and the BW forces even have to shoot down shuttles trying to leave the planet).
Do not ignore this "quarantine" LOAF...
If Blair had flown to Telamon, he would have been shot like the rest... in the novel: HARD EVIDENCE that the Heart of the Tiger NEVER set foot on the planet!!!

Catscratch and Vagabond

Blair thinks specifically about them because they're his friends -- specifically, they're his friends whom Confed will be especially interested in punishing if he causes a war. Why does he separate Catscratch and Vagabond from the rest of the Lexington crew in your situation? Why doesn't he include Gunderson in his 'list' -- someone who's *definately* on the Lexington (if we are to believe that Vag and Cat are still Confed pilots, there's no reason why they'd still be on the Lex during a scramble...) and whom Blair seems to be more of a friend with than Vagabond and certainly Catscratch?
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I don't know what you're trying to prove here, LOAF, but mark my words: Catscratch is flying that mission with you in the GAME, he is not in the novel... Period, full stop, this IS another discrepancy!

Confed does *not* use the incident to start a war, because Blair did *not* destroy the Lexington...
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Yes he does!!! I'm talking about the hypothetical situation of the game in which you destroy the Lexington instead of disabling it...
What happens in the game script then??? NOTHING!! The story carries on the same way as if the Lexngton had been disabled... NO WAR (until the assembly meeting)!!!
Therefore Blair's worries *in the novel*, have NO REASON TO BE *in the game*...
 
Axius

You seem to have missed something -- I first explained the 'real-life' reason Ohlander showed the scene differently in the book than they did in the game... but I *also* went on to explain the in-universe reason... (actually, I explained several possibilities...). Further, Ohlander changed how the Axius infiltration was shown -- not the actual event itself... which is what I said, and meant. No need or value to arguing semantics in this case...

Telamon

I claim that the comm conversation took place before Blair visited the planet, and that after several days (the blockade described in the novel) it was discovered that a team *could* survive... so he and the marines were ordered to go provide assistance for the settlement seen in the game. I already stated this in a previous post, though...

Catscratch

There are dozens of fighters off the Intrepid in that sequence -- one of them is Catscratch. The game tells us this -- the novel does *not* name every pilot there, though.

You seem to forget, regarding Blair's worries of a war that he (unlike us) is *not* privy to a Wing Commander IV Plot Chart. :)
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Axius

You seem to have missed something -- I first explained the 'real-life' reason Ohlander showed the scene differently in the book than they did in the game... but I *also* went on to explain the in-universe reason... (actually, I explained several possibilities...). Further, Ohlander changed how the Axius infiltration was shown -- not the actual event itself...
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No.
In the novel, Blair comes on board with DuMont's uniform and DOES NOT steal another one.
In the game, he does *not* come onboard with an uniform, therefore he HAS to steal one... Difference enough to me... :)

Telamon

I claim that the comm conversation took place before Blair visited the planet and that after several days (the blockade described in the novel) it was discovered that a team *could* survive... so he and the marines were ordered to go provide assistance for the settlement seen in the game. I already stated this in a previous post, though...
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No... that doesn't make sense, because from what you claim, the Intrepid would have stayed in Telamon's orbit for several days... and Wilford tells you that TIME is of the essence... The game spans on a period of TWO weeks if I recall (time that Paladin asks for Tolwyn to report to the great Assembly), the Intrepid can't afford to stau too long over Telamon...
Besides, Blair would have WARNED the doctors of his arrival in a Dragon, so that they wouldn't be waiting with guns blazing...
Besideds, just HOW can you imagine that the doctors find the "virus" not contagious after only a couple of days... THEY know nothing of this new technology, and I'm sure Blair and the others wouldn't trust going inspecting on Telamon, if they weren't sure they had NO risks of getting an infection...


Catscratch

There are dozens of fighters off the Intrepid in that sequence -- one of them is Catscratch. The game tells us this -- the novel does *not* name every pilot there, though.
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No indeed, the novel names Catscratch as being ON THE LEXINGTON, when it is clear that he flies on Blair's wing in the game (you even see him as wingman on the flight console :p)...

You seem to forget, regarding Blair's worries of a war that he (unlike us) is *not* privy to a Wing Commander IV Plot Chart.
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Indeed, but it doesn't make sense that he worries about killing lives like Catscratch's and Vagabond with that Torpedo, when Catscratch is clearly on Blair's wing...
 
Now, I have not read the WC IV novel (and by the sound of things I dont want to read it) but that axius thing can be easy to be explained in the game.
Now we never see Blair inside the base with a BW uniform or fight suit, if fact we see the Dragon land, a few techs, we hear a noise and a tech go see it, a bump, a tech leaving and now Blair pop up with a Black lance uniform, now that transport could have had that Black lance fight suits aboard (perhaps seether had its fight suit dry clean :) ).
Its not a big thing.
But the remaing things are a diferent matter, its very diferent from the game (that is what I am seeing in here), that sould not happened, perhaps that is why there is no WC P novel, novels based on the game will make mistakes, that is human to forget about something (like P2 system got cut out of WC P map) but WC IV does a very good work will being quite diferent from the game.(a very good job by the look of things)
This is what I am seeing by all those posts, WC III novel, yes I could read it since besides a few irritating things (Locanda Bioed, Flash death, but really very few and not very irritating things) that are there but WC IV novel, no (because its so diferent from the game itself in many relevent points)
 
Axius

As I already explained, we don't *know* what Blair comes onboard Axius wearing in the game -- because we don't see him until *after* he kills(?) the guard. Thus, it is *quite possible* that he is wearing DuMont's flight suit, and was forced to kill the guard because either the guard discovered him (which is true, the guard found Blair, not vice versa) or because he needed something besides a flight suit. Go watch the scene again -- the Lance lands, then we see the guard go behind a box... we *never* see what Blair is wearing.

Telamon

We *know* that the Intrepid stayed in Telamon's orbit for several days, because they enforced the blockade there for several days. Examining WCIV day-by-day leaves plenty of time for this to occur. There is also no evidence that the doctor we see in the game has the ability to communicate with Blair...

Clearly they *do* understand this new technology, because two different doctors explain how it works on two seperate occasions -- the first of which includes images of the nanoprobes... it should be no large task to discover that the nano-probes cease working after a certain point.

Catscratch

The fact that Catscratch is on Blair's wing simply supports my previous statement that Blair was worried about the affects of destroying the Lexington on his fellow defectees...
 
BTW

we do know that Blair just flies his Dragon in a standerd Flightsuite; on tallemon, both in a vindicator and a dragon is he in a standerd flight suit on the ground....
 
... but he wasn't trying to infiltrate a secret base when he landed on Telamon. He had DuMont's flight suit specially repaired for the Axius mission, according to the novel.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

Catscratch

The fact that Catscratch is on Blair's wing simply supports my previous statement that Blair was worried about the affects of destroying the Lexington on his fellow defectees...
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NO!! He's worrying about them because he thinks they're on board!!! IN THE NOVEL, Catscratch and Vagabond ARE NOT flying on Blair's wing!!!!
But we know that Vagabond has already defected and that Catscratch IS flying on Blair's wing!!

Come on LOAF, this is just denying the truth!! I'm sure if we asked the authors about what they wanted Blair to think at that moment, we would find out he's thinking that his two friends are on board... ON BOARD THE LEXINGTON!!

It is clearly mentioned "...and all his other friends on board that would die in the explosion"... he thinks they're on board!!

Therefore: game: Vagabond and Catscratch are NOT onboard the Lexington, novel: Vagabond and Catscratch ARE onboard the Lexington.

It's just that Forstchen and Ohlander don't care too much about making the novel coincide with the game, they have been rather sloppy on this one... ;)
 
Since Catscratch and Vagabond dont have their name put clear in that, its unclear were both are.
Vagabond is dead if we defect later in the game, Catscratch is on Blair Wing (its Blair only wingman, you dont have a choise in this matter in the game), now Blair must know other people aboard the Lexington, but we still dont see Seether in that mission.
Game.
Blair - Will Seether join us?
Paulsen - No, I need him here to cordinate things.

Now in the Novel, Blair fights Seether, that does not match.

Note: I am posting only based on things that have been said before in here, I am not defending the novel, that in on my personal view, have several conflits with the game, but I will post logical anwers to questions, there is nothing wrong with Blair having dificulties with attacking the Lexington, in my first run on that mission I did have a problem with that, now if I that know that is only a game have a moral question about killing people that I have fly with, why that for Blair the same would not happen?
 
Originally posted by Dragon

Blair - Will Seether join us?
Paulsen - No, I need him here to cordinate things.

Now in the Novel, Blair fights Seether, that does not match.
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Thank you Dragon!! Another detail I forgot about (because I played the "defect later" path only once... :p)!
There are plenty of details that do not match, LOAF!
PLENTY!
If anyone wants to add something here, like Dragon did, please do!! Let's try to prove LOAF wrong for once (happens only every... 600 years... ;))

[Edited by mpanty on 03-24-2001 at 19:45]
 
They sure do and even if there are one or two small inconsistincies somewhere it's hardly enough to be considered sloppy. They do pretty much go hand in hand.
 
Exactly. Anyone ever read a movie novelization? The author ALWAYS takes liberties. Its to be expected. Doesnt mean the book and movie are about two different things. Same here. Just accept it and move on. Its not hard.
 
ANd most of the inconsistencies can be either easily fixed or neglected. Ether way they don't distract from the story at large.
 
Thats why I suggested in the first place to have the Games act as the structure and the novels as the filling in between. If they clash, well, we take the structure as canon, ie, the games.

They can co-exist!
 
Originally posted by redwolf
Thats why I suggested in the first place to have the Games act as the structure and the novels as the filling in between. If they clash, well, we take the structure as canon, ie, the games.

They can co-exist!
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How about this... they both simply co-exist because Origin says so. No special rules, no extra clauses, nothing. Canon is canon, for what its worth. By that I mean, take WC4 for example, are you going to take that game for face value? Everything in it is going to be part of the structure of the Wing Commander Universe? The answer is absolutely not. It has multiple timelines throughout the game. So then people will say let the novels choose the way. But then what happens if the novels seem to diverge from the games? Should we argue them back together? Or is this where we ignore the novels, and by ignoring the novels which timeline in the game(s) do we respect? All of sudden our simple little theory is getting not so simple at all. That is why I will submit that we should just take everything equally. This raises the question: What about the differences? Well, a novel and a game are two completely different ways of telling us a story. OF COURSE there will be inconsistencies. Didn't you ever hear two different versions of the same story? So maybe Blair landed on the planet, or maybe he just flew by and had a little comm chat, or maybe both. Am I the only person willing to accept that the games and novels don't have to fit perfectly, not even inclusively, because they are simply retellings of the happenings of the Wing Commander Universe. So, maybe Kilrathi have no hair. Maybe the carrier is named the Tiger Claw. Maybe Tolwyn is black. Maybe Paladin isn't fat. Maybe going through a jump is a split second affair, or maybe it's long enough to write home to mom and dad. All these things could lead to interesting discussions, but posts that say "This is the only way it is because the <medium I like most insert here> says it is" isn't getting us anywhere. We could all share our observations and show our conclusions, and we could all walk away believing what we want.

Furthermore, "Let's prove LOAF wrong" is petty and childish. And for the record I may not agree with LOAF 100% either, but I respect his conclusions because, simply, its an understatement to say he knows a lot about Wing Commander. If he states an observation I'm likely to believe it, and if he makes a conclusion I'll give it a chance. Let us also not forget the large contribution to community he and the other CIC members have given us. Now, go buy some cafepress junk, seriously.

Lastly, I will never be willing to simply throw away one observation in favor of another. Now, if Origin had said that the Games are canon, and everything else is simply official, then yes, I would. But that is not what happened. Wing Commander has no levels of canon, so please stop trying to prove there are.

:D
 
Originally posted by mpanty

NO!! He's worrying about them because he thinks they're on board!!! IN THE NOVEL, Catscratch and Vagabond ARE NOT flying on Blair's wing!!!!
But we know that Vagabond has already defected and that Catscratch IS flying on Blair's wing!!
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now you're denying what you just said, arguing with yourself?

Originally posted by mpanty
Come on LOAF, this is just denying the truth!! I'm sure if we asked the authors about what they wanted Blair to think at that moment, we would find out he's thinking that his two friends are on board... ON BOARD THE LEXINGTON!!!!

It is clearly mentioned "...and all his other friends on board that would die in the explosion"... he thinks they're on board!!
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NO! Vag has already deffected, and Cat is on his wing, he's just thinking about the crew and OTHER FRIENDS he has onboard!

Originally posted by mpanty
Therefore: game: Vagabond and Catscratch are NOT onboard the Lexington,
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RIGHT!
Originally posted by mpanty

novel: Vagabond and Catscratch ARE onboard the Lexington.
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NO!
 
. . .I will submit that we should just take [all WC sources] equally. [P]osts that say "This is the only way it is because the <medium I like most insert here> says it is" isn't getting us anywhere. We could all share our observations and show our conclusions, and we could all walk away believing what we want.

I will never be willing to simply throw away one observation in favor of another. Now, if Origin had said that the Games are canon, and everything else is simply official, then yes, I would. But that is not what happened. Wing Commander has no levels of canon, so please stop trying to prove there are.
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But there must be levels of canon. If there were no hierarchies of sources, then we each would indeed be free to “walk away believing what we want”. We would have no basis for distinguishing the quality of information in, say, a published versus an unpublished source, a game manual versus a press release, or an “official” versus an “unofficial” guide. In short, WC lore could not commonly exist.

Yes, the development of canon is downright messy, even helter-skelter. But show me any generally accepted proposition in the proverbial real world (such that the earth orbits the sun) and I’ll show you a “simple” belief that has gone through a baptism of hellish fire. There’s nothing new here. The kind of arguments we’re having in WC about the authority of various sources occur all the time in science, law, religion, art, and politics. Welcome to human civilization and its many different “quests” for knowledge and certainty.

I rarely use my sig, but in this case . . .:)
 
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