True, it's been while since I've seen the specific episode. Your point stands.
Todd & Rosy - a sad story, indeed
- Thread starter MjavTheGray
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True, it's been while since I've seen the specific episode. Your point stands.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
What you should take away from the film isn't that there must be some far-planned and otherwise unvoiced plot to hurt you, though - it's that the elements which apparently define Wing Commander for you aren't the ones which define it for the series' creators and present managers... and frankly, you should have figured that out that during one of the earlier shifts to a completely different visual style for the sake of telling the story in a new way (Super Wing Commander or at the very least Wing Commander III.) Complaining that Paladin speaks French rings hollow if you aren't already blasting Wing Commander III for turning him from a thin blond into a fat dark-haired man.
(I'm not sure if you're being obstinate on purpose about the Rapier or if you just haven't followed ten years of discussions on this; the ship in the movie is the CF-117 Rapier, a very old fighter... the one in Wing Commander I, II and Arena is the F-44 Rapier II. They're not related.)
Great, here's your 'I raged against the machine' medal and if you tell the chef downstairs that it's your special day then you'll get a carrot with some icing on it. Whether or not you like Electronic Arts (wooooowoooo, they make scary *sports* games!), what they consider to be part of the canon *is* important... both to future projects *and* to how we debate things here at the forums. It's fine and dandy if you don't want to think about the movie - there's lots of days when I don't - but just look at what happened here. You haven't created some kind of private nomoviesphere... you've interrupted another thread to point out how you feel about it. That's where we run into trouble.
The problem is that in your example we can cite a number of examples that disprove it... and the opposite is true of the Rapier. We've got the history right there in the Confed Handbook.
Malcolm McDowell wasn't missing for lack of trying. He was actually slated to play Tolwyn in the movie; he dropped out at the very last minute when the Fantasy Island remake that he'd filmed a pilot for was picked up.
Well, exactly the opposite for me - I'm *not* defending the movie, I'm defending the continuity and the things that the movie and its supporting materials (well, especially the supporting materials) bring into it. I'm harshly critical of all sorts of things about the movie... but that doesn't mean I want to exclude it from the games.
I think it's something more than that. As I suggested above, in order to argue about a continuity we have to have one... so when we have a thread about Maniac (especially one that starts with the specific relationship introduced in the movie) then people have to be allowed to cite anything in the canon to make their point. Otherwise the whole system of discussion falls apart.
There's more to it than just that. I've been arguing about this for ten years... and every few years the line gets drawn a little bit further back. Oh, Chris Roberts said so? Well... Oh, you have a more reasonable explanation for so-and-so? Well... Oh, you've come up with a better analogy with a previous game? Well... Finally, EA actually included the movie in a new manual! They mentioned Pilgrims in a game! Their executive producer in charge of Wing Commander explained why the movie needed to be included in an interview! The revolution's over, the bums lost! I really, really, really, really believed we wouldn't have these threads anymore.
I understand that people, good people, don't like the movie... but it still *exists*, and coming up with increasingly elaborate excuses to pretend that it doesn't is the most awkward process we could engage in.
Whether or not you experience time in a jump is a difficult question. The opinion of the *games* has generally been that you do - early ones mention 'dropping from jumpspace,' Privateer shows you going through a tunnel... heck, there's a scene in WCIV that takes place while the Intrepid is traveling through a jump tunnel. The books (and the bible) say that it's instant and that characters don't experience anything save an upset stomach. Academy, at least, is good enough to only have 'time passing jumps' be special ones - through pulsars and such.
I would have a complain about Academy
The only one - but still I'd have.
I'd ask about StarWar'ish hyperspace in cartoon instead of instant jump...
But I will not.
May it be as it is, I say
Remember the jump to Axius in WC4? There was a goofy wormhole tubey thing, albeit a very brief one.
I realize it's cliche for people to hate EA on account of their marketting regimen, so I understand the presumption you made, but I was actually talking about EA versus Chris Roberts. Dualitous to state when it comes to not accepting the movie as game-continuity? Yes, I realize this.
I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms here long sealed, LOAF. I didn't intend to spread any 'hate', as I stated in my previous post. You obviously have some history with handling these sorts of dicussions, so I'll excuse some of the more sarcastic elements of your posts. I was trying to be civil. In fact, I had no emotional context here other than the want to aid the discussion. This came out of a 'should we consider Film-Maniac?" flavored-post because I spent a decade coming at it from a different angle.
I sincerely apologize if I offended you, or opened up a wound. I meant no offense in the slightest, and I'm sorry our verbose posting styles derailed this thread.
Honestly, I did not realize the two Rapiers were supposed to be 'different'. I forgot that the Rapier II was even the one in the first game; please come at this considering the fact that I just spent about 6 years away from the franchise. I also have a wife and year-old son, so I'm prone to forgetfulness these days.
But I'm not. One was a piece of talking artwork, and the other was an actor. The point is that they're both scottish. The spirit (and presumably the origin) of the character was intact.
Okay, I need to step back here and come at my point from a totally different spectrum. By your own admission, you have issues with the film. It's obvious that we both do. For me, the things changed seem kind of substantial, since the games were fairly character-driven, and the cast seems to change nationalities in a month's time. Not to mention that Bossman becomes a zombie, and Devereaux is demoted, despite her record being praised in Claw Marks. There's just little liberties taken that qualify it as an alternate timeline, when I look at it logically. Alternate timelines can still be canon.
But I explicitly said I liked the movie. I'm sorry, but I don't find the tone in this post warranted. Still, I understand if this is a tangent from past annoyances. Again, I'm sorry.
Yep, which is why that was the only cast member I listed.
I joined these forums in 2004, but I didn't really start posting/reading until very recently. I missed a lot of history, and I tend to go off on tangents.
I feel badly about this whole thing, and a little offended, so I'm done.
Back on to Maniac.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't think there's a versus here - Chris Roberts left Electronic Arts to pursue something he'd always wanted to do... and EA was good enough to *give* him the rights to do the Wing Commander movie while he was doing it. I don't know of any serious bad blood between the two... and the fandom needs both of them.
That same argument applies to the fighters, though - artwork versus actual props!
But seriously, I think you can find plenty of examples of Wing Commander III violating the 'spirit' of the previous characters... hell, look at this exact thread - which seeks to explain why Maniac went from being a crazy-eyed space-punk with delusions of grandeur to being a funny sidekick between the two games (or Tolwyn, who goes from being a reasonabel commander who just doesn't like Blair to being a moustache-twirling supervillain.)
(I'll also object on the surface - I never considered my wingmen in WC1 and 2 to be 'just artwork.')
I think that my essential problem is with the conclusion; "this is a problem, so it must be X" where X is something you decided - an alternate continuity, a separate timeline, it must be ignored, etc. I believe that we need to leave it at "this is a problem" -- because contrary to what it may feel like, everything after that is something you created from whole cloth.
Consider that this applies to me, too - I've engaged in hundreds of 'this is a problem, so it must be X' processes where my X was some elaborate explanation for the continuity issue. Those don't fly automatically, either - not without supporting evidence, not without an argument, not without realizing that it's my thinking rather than the group or the creator's intention.
We should leave it for our bosses to decide what is and is not 'canon'... and we should be sure they know exactly what elements of the history we believe needs to be fixed (see the Tiger Claw explanation in Star*Soldier for an example of that *working*!)
I think you're reading my tone wrong, I'm not really attacking you - I'm a generally over-the-top character here who happens to care a lot about these issues. I try to stick in some humor to balance that out -- like the carrot (so, it was... literally... throwing you a carrot.)
But yeah, we do see a lot of trolling in the same vein (McGruff, looking at you)... so it's hard to tell when someone has a serious opinion they'd like to talk about and when they're just trying to rehash an old point.
Sorry I got emotional there, LOAF. One of those days, and there's no "inflection button" on the keyboard to help encode our typing with our intended tone.
I will admit that I allowed my romanticism to get the better of me. But can you blame me? The original games shaped a huge chunk of my life. It changed how I viewed sci-fi, games, and storytelling. As fans, this community wouldn't work without that romanticism.
Also keep in mind that, unlike you, I didn't have a forum to vent about the movie for almost a decade. There's a lot of argument in me that you've already gotten out of your system, that I haven't gotten the chance to. Some of that came out, here.
Still, there is the issue of Bossman. Without going the 'the problem is X' route, I'll ask this; how is Bossman's death in the film explained? Was he simply MIA?
As far as Roberts versus EA, I didn't mean it as them being antagonists. I meant Roberts' word on canon versus EA. Technically EA has the rights, but I'm an artist and comic author, so I have strong feelings about how IP rights work, and how I think a lot of it is 'broken'. But that's neither here or there.
As for the Tiger's Claw thing, it was mostly a joke.
Anyways, commentary on craft and 'what seems better' aside, I'll try to keep my feelings on the matter suppressed and my objective viewpoints focused.
LOAF, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Cheers.
I will admit that I allowed my romanticism to get the better of me. But can you blame me? The original games shaped a huge chunk of my life. It changed how I viewed sci-fi, games, and storytelling. As fans, this community wouldn't work without that romanticism.
Also keep in mind that, unlike you, I didn't have a forum to vent about the movie for almost a decade. There's a lot of argument in me that you've already gotten out of your system, that I haven't gotten the chance to. Some of that came out, here.
Still, there is the issue of Bossman. Without going the 'the problem is X' route, I'll ask this; how is Bossman's death in the film explained? Was he simply MIA?
As far as Roberts versus EA, I didn't mean it as them being antagonists. I meant Roberts' word on canon versus EA. Technically EA has the rights, but I'm an artist and comic author, so I have strong feelings about how IP rights work, and how I think a lot of it is 'broken'. But that's neither here or there.
As for the Tiger's Claw thing, it was mostly a joke.
Anyways, commentary on craft and 'what seems better' aside, I'll try to keep my feelings on the matter suppressed and my objective viewpoints focused.
LOAF, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Cheers.
Which scene?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I'm happy to argue about it, any time.
Just start a new thread and we'll make sure we keep it civil. I don't hold any grudges against people for simply not agreeing with me... in fact, it was essential to the creation of WCNews.com inthe first place - Chris and I became friends after arguing over exactly this kind of issue back in 1996.Well, the only true answer is that we don't know - it hasn't been explained in continuity. I can talk your ear off with some interesting theories as to how that story could be told... but none of them are canonical.
Chris Roberts has been saying the same thing all along, though - people just didn't accept it as 'proof' because he didn't own the series. As for who has the right to own Wing Commander, I think it's a little bit more complex than it is in comic books... despite the heavy promotion of Chris' name, Wing Commander has never been a one man show. It is what it is because of large groups of talented people, from day one. (But in so far as IP goes, I think EA actually giving away the movie license apparently out of fondness is a particularly rare thing in this day and age...)
Yeah, but it's a joke that works so well - it acknowledges the problem, makes fun of the movie, makes fun of us for caring and comes up with an easy solution. Obviously, other retcons will have other approaches, but I think that one worked very well for that particular issue.
Well, don't surpress an opinion - aggitate, if you want to... but do it in a less interesting thread. Or start a new one that's specifically about the movie/game debate.
I think it is the jump to Peleus.
overmortal
Bearded Person
Alright, I can grant you that. Like I said, there's a lot of extra resource material I've yet to paw through.
Well, to be honest, the drug thing was simply how it appeared to me at the time when I played through SO2, and I'll readily admit that my own cobbling together of events is probably somewhat out of whack, since I've dedicated a lot less time to this than you have.
I'll agree to that. Looks like I simply need to read up more. I had a lot of fun spouting off my theories, though, and that's what discussions like this are for. Enjoyment!
MjavTheGray
Spaceman
Let's return to Maniac's lovelife.
Who were his two wives?
Any info of them?
Who were his two wives?
Any info of them?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
There's no information on either - they were only introduced in passing in his bio in the Wing Commander Prophecy Official Guide.
(I like to imagine that Archer was one of them. But I also like to imagine that she died on the Tiger's Claw. I guess I just want Archer to suffer. I don't know why.)
(I like to imagine that Archer was one of them. But I also like to imagine that she died on the Tiger's Claw. I guess I just want Archer to suffer. I don't know why.)
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Hah-hah - although the completist in me feels the need to point out that Blair was actually the Wing Commander of the Lexington...
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Hah-hah - although the completist in me feels the need to point out that Blair was actually the Wing Commander of the Lexington...
I think ELTEE was referring to the Armada Lexington which Blair couldn't have served on.
ELTEE
Vice Admiral
yes...it has been a really bad joke I've been continuing through a couple of threads centering on who the mystery Concordia pilot is that ends up being the CAG...
I'm not sure if LOAF was making a mistake or just being snarky. I chose to believe the latter, as we all know LOAF cannot commit an error..
.Deadman_ny
Spaceman
Love is always out there. It's just a question of money, or desperation.
It's hard to believe that unemployed John Q trailer park who has one tooth hanging out of his mouth and no job can find a mate, breed a litter. On the other hand, maybe Todds problem is that he's been poking the wronge type of 'kitty'.
It's hard to believe that unemployed John Q trailer park who has one tooth hanging out of his mouth and no job can find a mate, breed a litter. On the other hand, maybe Todds problem is that he's been poking the wronge type of 'kitty'.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Yes, you folks are right, I confused the two Lexingtons. Blair was Wing Commander of the Lexington in Wing Commander IV, not of the ship in Armada.