Todd & Rosy - a sad story, indeed

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Hey, that's a question a haven't seen discussed here. (Maybe I'm just blind....)
So - did Todd have a "lair-mate" in his life?

Sure thing, Wilson's Maniac could hardly win somebody's heart. But Wilson is not the only Maniac now. Maniac from the movie is perhaps the only reason for me to have some sympathy for the film. **That** Maniac for a good friend, was no coward at all, and would never surrender to Dekker in a fight.

So the question is - before he got wounded to his head and became Wilson's Maniac - had he any love-story? Or was is the loss of Rosy that made him change so much?
 
It's hard to say - maybe when Maniac's book is published we'll know the real story. :) Then again, maybe not... (actually, writing Maniac's autobiography would be a good fan project.)

We know he had relationships after Rosie, though - he was married twice... once for 22 days and once for three years.
 
For sanity's sake, I try to blot the Lillard Maniac out of my mind. Still, my favorite Maniac was his incarnation prior to WC3 (Wilson plays Biff playing Maniac).

If anything, though, you'd expect that the Rosie incident would have had a sobering affect on Maniac, rather than bolster his ego. Then again, his narcicism may be his defense mechanism, considering the more he's overshadowed by Blair, the more egotistical he becomes.
 
For sanity's sake, I try to blot the Lillard Maniac out of my mind. Still, my favorite Maniac was his incarnation prior to WC3 (Wilson plays Biff playing Maniac).

You probably have to explain that one - as far as I can tell, Lillard does a great job of playing the original WC1 Maniac (aside from his ridiculous hair.)

One of the basic elements of the Maniac story, no matter when it's told, is that he faces some terrible tragedy that's partially his fault and ultimately comes out a little crazier rather than admit to that...

(Re: relationships - we've forgotten about Maniac and Zarya from Pilgrim Stars...)
 
You probably have to explain that one - as far as I can tell, Lillard does a great job of playing the original WC1 Maniac (aside from his ridiculous hair.)

It might just be my affinity for the art of film making. I tend to be a harsh critic on film, music, and art, since I partake in them as a hobby. Wasn't really so much how the character was protrayed so much as how Lillard acted, in general. Way too much facial emphasis, felt forced. He spent most of the film making over-exagerated expressions, and came off looking just short of goofy on more than one occasion (His staring down of Hunter in the rec-room was a good one, and his face during most of the Rosie crash-landing approach). Prinze, of course, is guilty of his 'fly catching mouth' face, but his role didn't require him to be loud and obnoxious.

EDIT: I also need to add that I think the movie-Maniac's portrayal is a bit at odds with the WC1 Maniac in that the former was fairly competent and stupidly brave, and only disobeyed an order once to hot-dog with Rosie, while the latter would turn tail and rarely listened to orders.
 
It might just be my affinity for the art of film making. I tend to be a harsh critic on film, music, and art, since I partake in them as a hobby. Wasn't really so much how the character was protrayed so much as how Lillard acted, in general. Way too much facial emphasis, felt forced. He spent most of the film making over-exagerated expressions, and came off looking just short of goofy on more than one occasion (His staring down of Hunter in the rec-room was a good one, and his face during most of the Rosie crash-landing approach). Prinze, of course, is guilty of his 'fly catching mouth' face, but his role didn't require him to be loud and obnoxious.

Yes, but I would say that the single moment that best reminds everyone here of pre-Wilson Maniac is his open-mouth stare after Halcyon gives you permission to shoot him down.

EDIT: I also need to add that I think the movie-Maniac's portrayal is a bit at odds with the WC1 Maniac in that the former was fairly competent and stupidly brave, and only disobeyed an order once to hot-dog with Rosie, while the latter would turn tail and rarely listened to orders.

I don't know, Maniac was *supposed* to be brave but careless in Wing Commander I... the manual talks about how he's one of the top students in his class and is the carrier's newest ace and such.
 
Maniac is easily my favorite character of the series. He has such an cool story arc. I.E. his initial craziness and bad reputation on the Claw, nervous breakdown, hero-dom and first command, getting passed over by Blair and hating him, then finally ending up being (I think) Blair's best friend by mid WC4.

Specifically I enjoy his lifelong rivalry with Blair. I like how it's at times antagonistic (WC1), near hate (WC3), and other times friendly (WC2 and WC4). And Tom Wilson did such a great job with the role.
 
Also keep in mind that the missions in WC1 all take place essentially after the movie so we need to temper any apparent difference with the fact that during the movie he goes through a horrible tragedy that is essentially his fault.
 
I liked Wilson's version of Maniac the best. Lillard was okay, I actually liked him in the without a paddle movie (which was really only okay, but whatever...)

Most movie's have some good comic relief, and Wilson provided that in WC 3 and 4, and I would imagine that this was more a result of Wilson being hired than anything else. IIRC, wasn't Hamill supposed to be Maniac originally?

The first two games didn't really have a comedy element (although you could argue that the SWC voice acting was fairly humerous :) ) so Maniac had a lot less presence IMO.

I also would argue against the fact that Maniac becomes reckless because of Rosie's death. I mean, they named him "Maniac" for a reason, right? He's always been a hot dog, and he breaks off from Blair's wing because he's looking for Glory. I don't think he wants Blair to die from it, but it just doesn't cross his mind while he is flying.
 
I liked Wilson's version of Maniac the best. Lillard was okay, I actually liked him in the without a paddle movie (which was really only okay, but whatever...)

Most movie's have some good comic relief, and Wilson provided that in WC 3 and 4, and I would imagine that this was more a result of Wilson being hired than anything else. IIRC, wasn't Hamill supposed to be Maniac originally?

The first two games didn't really have a comedy element (although you could argue that the SWC voice acting was fairly humerous :) ) so Maniac had a lot less presence IMO.
Mostly true but there has always been some humor, and in WC1 (and 2 to a slight degree with the mention of hunter putting a slime rat in Maniac's bunk as well as my opinion his actual appearance in the Secret Missions) there are jokes, not by maniac, but at maniacs expense (being given the OK to shoot him down.

I also would argue against the fact that Maniac becomes reckless because of Rosie's death. I mean, they named him "Maniac" for a reason, right? He's always been a hot dog, and he breaks off from Blair's wing because he's looking for Glory. I don't think he wants Blair to die from it, but it just doesn't cross his mind while he is flying.

Yes, he's always been a "hot dog" but what happens is that he starts caring less and building up a shell to keep others out so to speak. At one point after he pretty much pretends to go crazy. He's actually even institutionalized at one point.
 
I'm gonna go on record as saying that I've loved the concept of Maniac as a Byronic Hero ever since I saw the WC movie. For all its shortcomings, this is a facet that makes it enjoyable.

The Todd Marshall depicted in the movie is a lovable guy, and he's a good friend to a young and insecure Chris Blair (take the actors themselves out of the picture and focus solely on the characters themselves). He's a genuinely likeable person because he's good-natured. He wants to have fun, and he cares about other people. On the mischevious side? Sure, but not maliciously so. The whole affair with him is tongue-in-cheek.

Bam!, he screws up and gets Rosie killed. You watch him begin the stages of grief, but you also see him questioning himself. Of course, one could take either side of the story, for him or against him, and you can sense that he's teetering back and forth himself, wondering if life just threw him a bad pitch, or if he was truely irresponsible and to be blamed for Rosie's death. That, and having to deal with everyone most decidedly taking the side agaisnt him (Except for Chris, mind you).

If you'll notice, aside from the rescue scene with Blair and a brief appearance or two, his role in the movie is essentially done with. When we see him again in WC1, he's changed his hair color, and somewhat assumed a new personality. I think these changes speak volumes.

For one, I know that the hair color thing is a cheap shot, all things considered, but let's take it literally for a moment. If he dyed his hair that color, it would seem to be indicative of an outward manifestation of an inward change. He obviously decided to give himself over to the "maniac" label, most likely because he's decided that Rosie's death was indeed his fault, and he's trying to be someone other than himself, whom he by now despises. He speaks with a dark tone to his words, and sinks himself into the only thing he can really get any satisfaction out of: flying fast and killing cats.

If you look forward into WC2, his appearance shows that the ten years haven't helped him much. (Bear in mind, I've not read a lot of the extra sources that people cite, referring to him being locked up, or having been married. Where can I find those, by the way?) He obviously is still trying to define himself as The Maniac rather than Todd Marshall. His experimentation with drugs is apparent if you look at his eyes, and that would read as a textbook tell-tale sign of self-hatred in a situation like his.

Of course, there's always the bravado he puts up. The ever-confident Maniac, who flies fast, kills cats, and impresses the ladies with his war stories (and I'm sure that it actually worked at some point, possibly often, but never on-screen).

However, by WC3 his years are finally beginning to speak to him. He seems to have come away from the drugs (which, I realize, is coincidence, but, hey, what's the harm in taking things on how they appear?) and had allowed his appearance to level out some. In short, he's matured a bit, but still clinging to his persona, which is, by now, so engrained into him that he himself believes he truely is who he says he is.

This causes him to be baffled, however, when he's passed over time and again for the promotions and honors he so obviously "deserves". Again, he's believing his own tale at this point. "I'm a war hero! I'm the best pilot in Confed! Why am I not getting the rewards I'm due?" Hence, his extreme bitterness towards his old friend, who has excelled greatly.

I think that, during the peace time between the end of the war and the Border Worlds Conflict, Maniac found a small amount of validation in the fact that, with Blair in retirement, his (seemingly) only roadblock is now out of the way, and he is now THE best pilot in Confed. In the TPOF novelization, Maniac even seems to be genuinely surprised that Blair has let himself go during his time away, and is now vaguely able to keep up with Maniac in terms of skill. I think Maniac found more validation to his persona in this, and that is why he seems a bit less bitter towards Blair, and even chumly when the situation calls for it. It doesn't, however, bring him out of the Maniac persona, and so his behavior in general is still the same. We also see, in the game, Maniac trying to pass on his "wisdom" to younger pilots (Troy Carter, to be specific), hoping that maybe he can do something good in the face of all he's done wrong. The downfall of Catscratch (be it death, or just a good chewing out) brings him into a sharp realization that his "wisdom" will only get more people killed.

By WC Prophecy, I think Maniac has pretty much resigned himself to his fate. Luck has been with him, but he will eventually, inevitably, die. He's resigned himself to the death nature of his job, and therefore chooses to live out his bravado to the utter end. Age has only tempered the edge of his knife, so to speak.

Ultimately, by clinging to Rosie's nickname for him, Maniac uses this dark, dangerous persona to hide from the fact that Todd Marshall was the guy who screwed up too much, and got people killed.

(Sorry for the really long post. I've thought about this topic a lot, and thought I'd just dump it all out there in one big essay.)
 
Rosie didn't give him the callsign; he got it at the Academy. The exact origins are explained in the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide.

I think you're forgetting a lot about Maniac - there isn't some hidden story about experimenting with drugs... his appearance in Special Operations 2 is part of a far-told story: he had a breakdown and became psychotic* during Thor's Hammer, a result of the stress of that mission plus several other factors (accidentally killing a transport crew and, presumably, Rosie's death.)

He wasn't on space drugs but rather became a very (very, very) effective combat pilot after he recovered... alternating between front line and test pilot tours in order to maintain himself. The Maniac we see in Wing Commander II has already begun trying to 'pass of' his wisdom - his crazed appearance is part of his training a new generation of pilots (the Wild Eagles) to fly like him. Their breakup then effects him severly...

* - actually, the Wing Commander I & II Guide suggests he was faking the psychosis... and that he'd simply become too tired of death and wanted to be taken off the line. LaFong (or Blair) goes to visit him in the hospital before getting shipped off to Gwynedd... Maniac goes on a crazed rant and then steadies himself briefly and winks as Blair is leaving. I actually think that adds an awful lot to the character...
 
Rosie didn't give him the callsign; he got it at the Academy. The exact origins are explained in the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide.

Is it just me, or isn't it folly to try to wedge the events of the movie before WC1? I always considered the movie to be a different continuity; a creative re-imagining on behalf of Roberts. In the film, Rosie does give Maniac his callsign. He's referred to as 'Marshall' before that, and he looks contemplative before he salutes and declares himself as, "Todd "Maniac" Marshall..." Also, Rosie tells Angel later that he has a new callsign. And we're leaving Paladin's origins out of this... (Bonjour!)

Also, in WC1, the narrative - and the killboard - even make it blatantly clear that your first mission on the 'Claw is your first mission out of the academy. Which sort of erases all of the engagements Blair had in the movie, as well the events of the Academy show (which I also consider another continuity. I didn't mind the premise, and I understand that using the characters from the games would draw more attention because of the actors voicing them, but I always felt that they could have used another cast, so it wouldn't require you to stretch out your suspension of disbelief in WC continuity.)
 
Is it just me, or isn't it folly to try to wedge the events of the movie before WC1? I always considered the movie to be a different continuity; a creative re-imagining on behalf of Roberts. In the film, Rosie does give Maniac his callsign. He's referred to as 'Marshall' before that, and he looks contemplative before he salutes and declares himself as, "Todd "Maniac" Marshall..." Also, Rosie tells Angel later that he has a new callsign. And we're leaving Paladin's origins out of this... (Bonjour!)

Yes, the movie takes place before WC1 - it's Blair and Maniac arriving on the Tiger's Claw, and is dated roughly a month before the game (the movie takes place in March, 2654, while WC1 starts in April.) I believe it can be found on the Star*Soldier version of the Victory Streak timeline (along with other movie-introduced references.)

The callsign issue has obviously been discussed before, but it's worth noting that even the shooting script of the movie has a line which calls in 'Maniac' before the sequence with Rosie (it was on the Diligent)... it was removed from the finished cut, but it suggests that intention was not to have the line you referenced be creating a callsign for him. If that wasn't the intention and it doesn't work into the continuity, it's hard to defend insisting on interpreting it that particular way.

Also, in WC1, the narrative - and the killboard - even make it blatantly clear that your first mission on the 'Claw is your first mission out of the academy. Which sort of erases all of the engagements Blair had in the movie, as well the events of the Academy show (which I also consider another continuity. I didn't mind the premise, and I understand that using the characters from the games would draw more attention because of the actors voicing them, but I always felt that they could have used another cast, so it wouldn't require you to stretch out your suspension of disbelief in WC continuity.

You'll have to explain the former - I don't think the 'narrative' is clear at all. Halcyon tells the squadron he's briefing that he wants rookies flying as wingleaders for experienced pilots on their "first missions." Blair has been on the carrier for less than a month and is certainly still a rookie... and is still flying his first missions. It's also possible that it refers to missions with the specific squadron - he's been transferred from Black Lion to Killer Bee and is flying a different fighter now. As for the killboard - is Wing Commander III Blair's first mission, too? Or The Secret Missions, if you don't import or use one of the ported versions? It's just not a reasonable gauge.

I don't think you're clear on the placement of the Academy show, either - only the first episode takes place before Wing Commander I (when they're still at Flight School and recieve the assignment.) The premise behind the show (as explained in the press kit) is that it's *literally* the 'Wing Commander Academy,' a special command school. Blair and other promising officers are undergoing post-graduate training... it's not literally a semester at the TCSNA. You can see in the show that they're actually comissioned officers - all the rooms in Most Delicate Instrument identify the characters as 2nd Lt. {whoever} (as does the press material}. The episodes take place throughout 2654, with several of them centering around that year's Sivar-Eshrad ceremony (so, during WC1.) They're included accordingly in Star*Soldier.

(Also, note that the movie material actually references Academy TV - Blair and Maniac's flight school reviews in the Confederation Handbook mention their destruction of a Kilrathi blockade runner from 'Red and Blue.')

To address one other aspect: the idea that there *is* a greater continuity for other characters is something of a misconception. To the general public, the developers and heck even to us at the time Wing Commander *was* Blair's story. It's only after many many years of building and building that we've put together a Star Trek-style background for the series that would allow other carriers and other adventures to take place at the same time. It just wasn't anything they considered at the time.

... EXCEPT a lot of the material we're talking about is partially developed from an aborted concept which would have made the Wing Commander I/Secret Missions (and later SM2 and II) character a separate person from Blair - it's something to think about when you're working out how various stories came to be in your head.
 
Right, I wasn't arguing that the movie doesn't take place before the dates of Wing Commander 1's events - I was merely indicating that the movie doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into the first game - and I don't believe there was an intent to do so until after the fact, where people like us attempt to tie them together, as well as authors and what-not.

I like to piece the games together as one continuity, and the other mediums - Academy and Movie - as another. That's just how I choose to view the franchise; I think it takes a lot of permissiveness and gross speculation to connect them all together, even if Star*Soldier attempts to do so - ten years later.

You'll have to explain the former - I don't think the 'narrative' is clear at all. Halcyon tells the squadron he's briefing that he wants rookies flying as wingleaders for experienced pilots on their "first missions." Blair has been on the carrier for less than a month and is certainly still a rookie... and is still flying his first missions. It's also possible that it refers to missions with the specific squadron - he's been transferred from Black Lion to Killer Bee and is flying a different fighter now. As for the killboard - is Wing Commander III Blair's first mission, too? Or The Secret Missions, if you don't import or use one of the ported versions? It's just not a reasonable gauge.

If you never played WC1 before Secret Missions, then of course you'd begin with a clean slate. But the feature to import was there for veteran players who got into the game prior, as intended. As for the killboards - if it's reasonable to say that your killboard starts over on each carrier, then wouldn't Blair's kills also be on the board in WC1? You carry over your kills from every squadron you join while on the 'Claw. It's just as speculative as connecting the film directly to the game, the former being re-invisioned. Unless you consider the 'Tiger Claw' and the 'Tiger'S Claw' to be two different ships. ;)

This is an age old argument, I'm just prefacing it with my preference to remove 'Film' from 'Game', continuity-wise. Academy I'm more permissive about, because it kept close to the game material. No amount of coaxing will ever get me to meld WCM into the main game-line. ;) I end on tha note.
 
Right, I wasn't arguing that the movie doesn't take place before the dates of Wing Commander 1's events - I was merely indicating that the movie doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into the first game - and I don't believe there was an intent to do so until after the fact, where people like us attempt to tie them together, as well as authors and what-not.

The problem there is that you have to prove that claim -- and I don't think it's possible. Chris Roberts was certainly quoted as saying that the movie was in the same continuity as the game... the idea that it *isn't* is something that fans who were unhappy with the film came up with, and the burden of proof should be on them.

It was possible to argue and speculate about that for eight years because there just wasn't any licensed material to study in that time... but now it's pretty clear that EA considers the movie material as part of the 'canon.'

I like to piece the games together as one continuity, and the other mediums - Academy and Movie - as another. That's just how I choose to view the franchise; I think it takes a lot of permissiveness and gross speculation to connect them all together, even if Star*Soldier attempts to do so - ten years later.

That's kind of bizarre -- since the people behind Academy are essentially the ones who didn't go with Chris Roberts do to the movie and instead stayed on to work on the games...

Also, Academy clearly worked hard to avoid exactly the problem everyone complains about with regards to the movie -- it features the original actors, ships that look like they did in WC1, very little new history, etc. I'm not really sure how to take your complaint, in this light - do you just not like stuff that's on TVs?

If you never played WC1 before Secret Missions, then of course you'd begin with a clean slate. But the feature to import was there for veteran players who got into the game prior, as intended. As for the killboards - if it's reasonable to say that your killboard starts over on each carrier, then wouldn't Blair's kills also be on the board in WC1? You carry over your kills from every squadron you join while on the 'Claw.

It's not reasonable, though - since the same 'transfer' utility exists to move your kill score between Wing Commander 1 and 2... while it *doesn't* exist for several versions of WC1 (ie, an SNES or an FM Towns pilot has to restart his count between games.) I don't think it's a point that can be stood upon in either direction.

It's just as speculative as connecting the film directly to the game, the former being re-invisioned. Unless you consider the 'Tiger Claw' and the 'Tiger'S Claw' to be two different ships.

I don't think it takes a great deal of 'speculation' to suggest a link between the Wing Commander movie and the Wing Commander video game.
 
The problem there is that you have to prove that claim -- and I don't think it's possible. Chris Roberts was certainly quoted as saying that the movie was in the same continuity as the game... the idea that it *isn't* is something that fans who were unhappy with the film came up with, and the burden of proof should be on them.

The idea that it isn't, at least for me, is that things didn't make sense to me - up front. The quality of the movie has nothing to do with it for the sake of argument, regardless of what Roberts hoped to accomplish. Paladin being french. Angel being british. Tolwyn going from Concordia, to Claw, to Concordia again. The implication in the first Wing Commander that you're fresh out of the academy, but have already flown several sorties for a month prior - not to mention a marine assault. Like I said, it just confronts my suspension of disbelief. Even all the ships look different, and the Rapier is in active service before it even gets its first field test during the course of Wing Commander 1. I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's a stretch at all.

It was possible to argue and speculate about that for eight years because there just wasn't any licensed material to study in that time... but now it's pretty clear that EA considers the movie material as part of the 'canon.'

To be admittedly indignant, I don't care what EA considers canon in this particular franchise. ;)

That's kind of bizarre -- since the people behind Academy are essentially the ones who didn't go with Chris Roberts do to the movie and instead stayed on to work on the games...

Also, Academy clearly worked hard to avoid exactly the problem everyone complains about with regards to the movie -- it features the original actors, ships that look like they did in WC1, very little new history, etc. I'm not really sure how to take your complaint, in this light - do you just not like stuff that's on TVs?

I had no complaint about the actors from the games not appearing in the movies (except for 'ol Malcolm.) I blame the confusion on the lack of clarity in my previous post; I was saying that I am more inclined to accept Academy as canon than the Film. It's less of a stretch in regards to everything else outside of the characters.

It's not reasonable, though - since the same 'transfer' utility exists to move your kill score between Wing Commander 1 and 2... while it *doesn't* exist for several versions of WC1 (ie, an SNES or an FM Towns pilot has to restart his count between games.) I don't think it's a point that can be stood upon in either direction.

I agree, though my point was the principle of doing so; I akin speculating on the killboard issue as legitimate as explaining away the use of Rapiers in the film.

I don't think it takes a great deal of 'speculation' to suggest a link between the Wing Commander movie and the Wing Commander video game.

Maybe speculation wasn't the right word - it's just a lot to swallow for me. Still, suggesting the link raises a lot of questions that's easier to explain as creative license.

Don't get me wrong, LOAF. I'm not attacking the movie; despite the acting of the two front-men, I enjoy it. I like the fact that it is, indeed, Wing Commander. But like Doom 3 is to Doom, I consider them two versions of the same franchise. I like the film for its own merits. Same with Academy - in fact, I love Academy.

With all that said, I totally respect what you're trying to do here, LOAF. You're standing for the integrity of the franchise, and it's a necessary thing - I totally applaud you for it. On this matter, it's preference based on my suspension of disbelief versus yours. I'm not really on a tangent of what's right and wrong here; I think we can both argue the space between the lines forever.
 
I would have a complain about Academy :)
The only one - but still I'd have.
I'd ask about StarWar'ish hyperspace in cartoon instead of instant jump...
But I will not.
May it be as it is, I say
 
I would have a complain about Academy :)
The only one - but still I'd have.
I'd ask about StarWar'ish hyperspace in cartoon instead of instant jump...
But I will not.
May it be as it is, I say

A jump is essentially a brief jaunt through a wormhole-like anomoly. It's never exactly shown as 'instant' in the games. Even in the film, time stops during the jump. There certainly is movement occuring there, we just don't see it - except for in Academy.

Ever play FreeSpace? Their 'subspace jump' is similar to WC's, yet there is a tunneling between nodes that you get to see.
 
And in the cartoon (I am sure of it) I saw Blair writing the letter while the Claw goes a looooong way in e hyperspace...
But I agree that 'instant' is not correct word.
Still - seconds in the 'classic' WC universe, and hours in the cartoon... That's the difference, people.

Again - I am not attacking the cartoon. I like it. Sure thing I like it.
 
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