The WC grape board

[BrynS]

Considering the story-rich enviroment WC is in and the story-driven games like Half-Life, its a wonder why the two haven't combined.

Yeah, I'm actually quite surprised that there hasn't been a Wing Commander themed FPS yet.

On a similar note, I would have been quite surprised that there hasn't been a decent Stargate FPS yet, had I not recently heard about the upcoming (currently scheduled for Late 2005) Stargate game under development, Stargate SG1: The Alliance

EA owns all the WC IP and over the past 5 years or so, the PC market has been literally bombarded with FPS games, especially WW2 shooters, many of which were developed under EA studios. I would of thought that the success of titles like the various Jedi Knight games and Star Trek Elite Force would have spurred EA on exploit a similar franchise in its inventory, namely Wing Commander.

I'm sure we'd all agree that the WC universe is fairly well developed across various mediums relative to most franchises and it shouldn't struggle to fuel one or a series of FPS games, insofar as story(line) is concerned, whereas one could probably recount the entire backstory and plot of the whole Quake series, including the upcoming Quake 4, in about 300 words (or less)!

However, looking at the Quake series and games like FarCry, Serious Sam, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, et al, it would seem that in many instances, hardly any story and/or established characters will suffice, provided the title is well developed and excels in at least one area, i.e. bleading-edge engine (FarCry), long dormant gameplay experience (Serious Sam -- defeating hordes of monsters hasn't been as well simulated since Doom 1 & 2) etc. Indeed, as long as the gameplay and graphics are there, most gamers will lap it up no matter what game franchise is represented. A potential studio would just need to licence a decent engine, make sure the gameplay is fun and somewhat varied, insert the relevent WC setting, story and characters and provided that the studio is rather competent, they should have all the components for a great game.

EA could also have used a WC FPS to guage wider interest in the franchise and if successful, it would have managed to expand the franchise into other genres (i.e. FPS) as well, while probably kick-starting the space-sim and MMO avenues again.

Seven words: Wing Commander FPS, Raven Software, Unreal Engine3


Cheers,


BrynS

 

[Farlander]

My biggest complaint would be that the actual flying and combat in Wing Commander III and IV were kind of weak. Just not as satisfying to me as Wing Commander I and II for some reason. That was one reason I really liked Prophecy right from the start - sure, the story wasn't quite as good as Wing Commander III and IV, but the gameplay was a lot more enjoyable.

 

[LeHah]

Seven words: Wing Commander FPS, Raven Software, Unreal Engine3

I'm not sure if I want a Wing Commander FPS. Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely be interested in such a project - hell, I tried making a WC level for Duke Nukem 3D ages ago - but I want a space sim. What set the series apart from so many other games was that it was unhead of to find such a rich story in a flight sim, usually they tried cramming a story of that depth into a RPG or somesuch.

 

[FlashFire82]

I really believe it's part of the reason people don't want to play space sims anymore -- no atmosphere.

That may be the worst pun I've ever read. Congratulations.

 

[Corsair(pilot)]

Worst... or BEST?

 

[Manboy]

I'm not sure if I want a Wing Commander FPS. Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely be interested in such a project - hell, I tried making a WC level for Duke Nukem 3D ages ago - but I want a space sim. What set the series apart from so many other games was that it was unhead of to find such a rich story in a flight sim, usually they tried cramming a story of that depth into a RPG or somesuch.

I've always wanted a combination of the two. Like everyone here I would love another WC space sim to be a part of but it's obvious that EA, like most publishers have lost faith in the genre. I personally think the genre itself needs to evolve to regain the spark that it once had. Dont get me wrong I love the space-sim - Wing Commander was the game that got me so heavily interested in games in the first place. Its just that it's all been done before.

I've always wanted to explore the carrier on foot - FPS style. Has anyone played The Chronicles of Riddick? I'm actually not a fan of the franchise but this game was great!. Even though it's been done before it's an atmospheric FPS with characters that you could interact with in game (and not a bad action game to boot). Something in that style. I'm not necessarily talking about walking around with guns and blowing off your wingmans face (although....) but that interactive aspect of it. Throw in a few RPG elements............
There's so much potential and it's ashame that publishers don't realise it.

 

[Dark Angel]

The problem is that the only goal of game companies is to make money, and that means a lot of money. Their goal ISN'T making good games - if there were a market for bad games, they'd make bad games (I am NOT referencing to WC here, of course!-everyone here knows WC's a great game). Making good games is just the means for them to get to the money. They don't give a shit if you like it, at least until you buy it. That's the reason for the fight against software piracy (by pirating software you're stealing their potential profit) and it's the reason why there are LOADS of very similiar (at least for me) RTS and FPS games (most of them are different from the others just by the story and some minor details, like graphics). Actually, the last game I actually BOUGHT was Wing Commander: Prophecy. You may now think, "Just another pirate", but I buy only the games I like and I can't say if I like them by just looking at the box and playing the demo. Not that there would be many games that I'd like so much as to invest some 2000 CZK in them (I live in the Czech Republic). The averagy salary in my country is some ~10000 - 15000 CZK and the games cost about ~1500 - 3000 CZK. Microsoft games and programs are the most expensive, of course. But I've strayed off topic too much, haven't I?

 

[Marc]

A potential studio would just need to licence a decent engine, make sure the gameplay is fun and somewhat varied, insert the relevent WC setting, story and characters and provided that the studio is rather competent, they should have all the components for a great game.

Okay, I'm really going out on a limb here, but I don't think a new WC game can restore the franchise to its former glory days. Don't shoot me! not yet! hold your fire! liscen up...

What a 'potential' studio should do first is a remake. An Official remake. Its been done before, does anyone remember Dune2000? It gave the game a new life.
The same thing is needed here, I think. Now the WC games have been rereleased before- but they where never given an extensive overhaul to take advantage of today's technology. And I'm not talking about 'SuperWing Commander'- that does'nt count... because they changed just about every desing for who the hell knows why!
Hell everyone here knows it and that's why Standoff and others like it are so great. What the fan projetcs don't have is the publicity, the ressources, and to some degree, the man/computer power to reach the game market. Hell I'm sure this has all been sead before on some other thread...

Can anyone imagine a WC1 remake? I mean by God! the scrip is there, the ships are already modeled in 3D (half of us have our own versions at home) and they look superb! Any idiot knows these games don't need to be redesigned, what they need is to be brought up to 21st century technology. plain and simple.

Ok. now shoot me.

 

[Manboy]

The problem is that the only goal of game companies is to make money, and that means a lot of money. Their goal ISN'T making good games - if there were a market for bad games, they'd make bad games

And you're right, it is big buisness after all but there are exceptions to that rule. Some developers have creative freedom. Designers like Shigeru Miyamoto, Sid Meier, Warren Spector, Tetsuya Mizuguchi, Kenji Kaido, Peter Molyneux (he gets a bit too creative sometimes) and teams like Bungie, UGA and Treasure to name a few all basically have carte blanche to do whatever they want. They're all masters of their craft and the publishers respect that (if their creations sell that is ).
Wing Commander needs someone of that calibre to take the helm - someone like Chris Roberts. I know he has other priorities which is understandable but someone with that type of vision will make it easier for Wing Commander to take off once again.
But hey, enough over optimistic ranting......

 

[Edx]

Thats because the designers that want and like making good games, its the publishers that want to make money.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That's true, Bungie can now make any game they want, as long as that game is Halo 3.

 

[Dark Angel]

Yeah, I guess I'm just being pessimistic. But I do get surprised sometimes - for example when first seeing Vega Strike. I mean, I've seen games sold for lots of money and they were far inferior to Vega Strike...

 

[Manboy]

That's true, Bungie can now make any game they want, as long as that game is Halo 3.

Ha! Yeah you're probably right....but I severly doubt they'll have design limitations placed upon them.

 

[Penta2]

I know this is an old thread to drag up, but...

My dream version of WC would include the classic things, plus:

1. "Walkable" bases, as mentioned upthread. Mandatory.

2. Atmospheric flight. Not as something special, just a possibility whenever fighting near a planet.

3. Just a small thought: Bring back the promos, medals, etc. of WC1.

 

[Porthos]

I know this is an old thread to drag up, but...

My dream version of WC would include the classic things, plus:

1. "Walkable" bases, as mentioned upthread. Mandatory.

2. Atmospheric flight. Not as something special, just a possibility whenever fighting near a planet.

3. Just a small thought: Bring back the promos, medals, etc. of WC1.

3. They did that with Prophecy, which I thought was a nice touch.

 

[AKAImBatman]

1. "Walkable" bases, as mentioned upthread. Mandatory.

I'll second that. While it would be nice to have the cinematics of previous WC games, I'm certainly not against progressing the story in an Elite Forces II like fashion. They could even extend this engine to become an FPS called Wing Commander: Marine Assult Unit. ;-)

2. Atmospheric flight. Not as something special, just a possibility whenever fighting near a planet.

It would probably add too much complexity to the gameplay. Especially if we demanded "real" flight physics. Perhaps a better idea would be to make planets REALLY, REALLY big, and allow you to fight in orbit. It would certainly add "atmosphere" (as LOAF so eloquantly put it).

3. Just a small thought: Bring back the promos, medals, etc. of WC1.

If you read the WCrophecy design guide, that was exactly what they were trying to do. Yet somewhere, somehow along the way they lost the vision of a "big, giant reset button". IMHO, if they were going to lose that vision, they should have just gone back to the original concept of continuing the Blair saga.

 

[Fellentos]

My gripes:

WC1
- Poor wingmen. Man did they get shot down often or not?
- No ship-to-ship battles

WC2
- The Epee. Might as well put me in a coffin right away
- The Sabre. It's shields are a joke

WC3
- Culture shock. Completely different look and feel from WC1 and WC2. It didn't even look good. Ugly lasers and boxy ships.
- Lousy transportation in TCS Victory.

WC4
- Felt like more of the same, not too interesting story-wise.

WC
- Culture shock again.
- Nephilim didnt do it for me

 

[ChrisReid]

What a great thread to bring back.

I almost never lost any wingmen.

 

[Mordecai]

If I repeat things that were already said, it's for emphasis...

WC1 - Even though the wingmen were TERRIBLE (I usually had about 5 times more kills than the best Claw pilot - and in about 1/3 the number of sorties) I wish they would Eject when they were in trouble. Instead they died, and the next few missions that you were supposed to have that mission, you'd be flying solo and really need someone to divert some of those countless guns now aimed at you. Honestly I didn't mind the old "you and your wingmen against the entire Kilrathi fleet at every nav point" cause it made it more challenging, but the realism is definitely lost at the end of the day.

SM1 & 2 - The Dralthi missions (mentioned already) could have been WAY better designed. How is it that the enemy almost always recognized you at first sight? Sheesh...

WC2 - When friendly capships started getting auto-protected (i.e. you'd hear the music knowing that Paladin's Free Trader had bought it, but it'd still be alive) the excitement and challenge of escort missions went right out the window.

SO1 & 2 - The Crossbow and Morningstar were huge disappointments. Crossbow was nothing but a watered-down Broadsword with a couple extra neutron cannons that'd suck your capacitors dry in two salvos anyways. And as far as the Morningstar, what kinda heavy fighter only has 2 lockable missiles (loved the Mace though) and no turrets? Of course, like I said, it made the missions more challenging, but if you're gonna design some new iron-butt ships for sequels, put some more effort into 'em.

Privateer - By far the best WC game, and, for its time and well beyond, there's really not anything you can complain about. Of course we complain about seeing the same faces for bartenders, ship dealers, female fixers, etc. and about the same base structure throught the entire sector, but anyone who's ever programmed understands limits and can appreciate how this game stretched the limits beyond the resources available at that time.

Armada - Okay everyone's griping about the combat AI. What about the strategy AI? How hard is it to program the computer to NOT march his carrier unescorted right into your squad of heavy fighters? I used to pull back my heavies just to prolong it and make it more playable, then even went as far as not even building heavy fighters. If push came to shove, you could just fly around with your carrier and a handful of Wraith ships, and when you went into battle just fly around the carrier and let its overbearing flak kill all the enemy ships in seconds. With flak that hard it's unimaginable that they concede carrier destruction with one heavy fighter in the same vicinity without calculating the fact that most of the time it'd be dead before it even got into range.

WCA - I know resources were limited but I wanted more than just 4 measley nav points.

WC3 - Great game. But of all the video that could've been cut out, the Hobbes betrayal scene should not have been on the list. There were a bunch of meaningless conversations that didn't affect me here nor there, and any one could've been cut so I wouldn't have had to wait months to find out what the heck happened to my old buddy. Honestly I never bought that twist either; Hobbes' defection set back the Kilrathi war effort by years. Dare I say the Kilrathi might've even won the war if he hadn't. And you mean to tell me that Thrak designed it all, anticipating that he'd gain the unbelievable amount of trust to be in the right place and right time to thwart a last-ditch Terran effort to win the war? Come on...

WC4 - A lot of what made WC3 so real was definitely stripped away in this game, even though it had like 4 hours more movie. But all-in-all a great sequel and not too much to complain about.

P2 - Man I'd need a whole thread to complain about this game (even though I still play it quite a lot.) Maybe if it was just a regular game and didnt carry the hopes and dreams of tons of avid (and disappointed) Privateer fans it woulda been okay. Repetitive missions, lack of ship variety, no ship cargo holds, shaky storyline, and inability to jump w/ enemy presence unless you're like 3000 clicks away (I think the manual justified it by saying a ship jumping out is very vulnerable to attack...well if I CANT jump and have to sit at a waypoint killing pirates for Literally an hour and change how vulnerable am I?) are a just a handful of my gripes.

WCP - Finally some real Fleet Action. The engine's great too, but IMO, barring a few exceptions the missions are all generic - hit your waypoints, kill all the bad guys, go home. Compared to other sims, WC games have generally not been up to par as far as missions go, but the storyline was always captivating enough to make you overlook it. Prophecy stripped that away -- no more in-movie choices, few plot twists, less conversations, generic acting.

SO - Harder missions, but not too much more variety. The lack of a true storyline and elimination of cinematics (yeah I know they couldn't have em since it was a downloaded add-on) made me feel like I was just running a gauntlet or simulator mission, with a few dialogues added in to make me feel like I should care what was going on besides me just blasting ships for the heck of it. This is probably the only WC game that I don't replay on a regular basis (then again I've lost it and redownloaded it and cracked CDs etc countless times, but I don't miss it.)

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I know this is an old thread to drag up, but...
My dream version of WC would include the classic things, plus:
1. "Walkable" bases, as mentioned upthread. Mandatory.
2. Atmospheric flight. Not as something special, just a possibility whenever fighting near a planet.
3. Just a small thought: Bring back the promos, medals, etc. of WC1.

Speaking of walkable bases.. that would awesome if they could incorporate that into missions too- using a Halo type viewpoint. That idea made me think of the game Halo which begins with your starship being boarded by aliens. Like in WC4 when Blair boards the Blacklance ship to spy on them and tries to escort the scientist out, you could be controlling him Halo style. You could also be part of a Confed boarding party (like the multiple missions with Dekker and the marines), or being escorted by marines to your fighter craft while your carrier's being boarded. It would probably take too much coding, but it might make a fun WC mod for a first person shooter.

Since this is a griping thread... I always thought that Confed had a bunch of boneheads organizing mission assignments. You've got a mission where you want to destroy around 14 fighters and 4 capships? Let's send two fighters after them! And if Blair fails after shooting a dozen fighter's and a couple capships all by himself, let's get mad at him and treat him like a failure! The way I had justified that was by looking at the superior # of enemy fighters and capships that the Kilrathi had and imagining that it "represents" what Blair had to take on MINUS what the rest of the fleet would take out. I imagined this is why in the briefing's you'd see for instance 4 ships (2 solid blue triangles and two empty triangles) instead of the actual 2 that would fly. The outnumbering enemies represented the # of enemies Blair would've had to destroy as his share of the kills for the mission to be a succes for the whole group. Also Blair was assumed to be worth that amount of kills due to his record.
This idea was shattered though with WC4. On the first time through, I went with the BW, and found myself to be constantly outnumbered. I assumed that this was because Confed had a larger carrier with more fighters. Unfortunately, I went with Confed the second time through and found myself to be outnumbered by BW forces in the missions! Even the pirates fielded more craft than Confed!! The idea that Blair was expected to do more seems to fail to the fact that the huge Confed carrier should've had enough fighters to spare in order to outnumber the enemy.