The CIC OT Zone's Official You're All Huge Idiots Religion Thread

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This has prompted me to talk about Marsha Stevens once a prominent Christian singer in the early 80's come out as a lesbian and was excomunicated from the church and several hymnals were destroyed that contained songs of hers that I dare say were "God" inspired look up her name on the net I've met here once and didn't even realize she was a lesbian but her songs are still inspiring and written about god

now tell me how her music is corrilated with her sexual orientation because I don't see it and tell me how this bishop serving god has anything to do with him being gay perhaps he is cellibte perhaps not if he doesn't act or preach that gay is the way what the heck is the problem if he can preach good and lead people to god does it matter that he's gay I mean you all say if he acts he sins if he thinks he sins

well don't straight bishops act in sin and think in sin just like everyone else so what's the difference is it just because he mentioned that he was gay because heck I don't see much difference and I don't see him on the news kissing a boyfriend or anything and I don't see him preaching that everyone should except him

so I don't get what the difference is both straight and gay live in sin and gays are really trying to better themselves moraly since 1987 gay couples are ten times more commited then in the past gay people are no more living in sin than most lost straight people so I still don't see a huge difference between us

-Rance-

well as LOAF put it non-wang holes that's about the only difference
 
Bob McDob said:
I'm a little hestitant to resort toRelgiousTolerance.org on this matter, but...
And you would have us take seriously a site that posts the following ad (right up at the top of the page, no less...)??...
"Love Spells and Love Spell Kits
Purchase powerful love spells and spell kits to help you find - and keep - the love of your life"...

Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes:

Wedge009 said:
AFAIK, the Bible (at least the 'New' International Version of it) essentially takes Jewish Scripture as the Old Testament, and scholars went through the thousands of manuscripts which have survived to translate what's known as the New Testament.

I am sad for you. If she truly was Christian, I don't think she shouldn't have forsaken you, and if she really follows Christ, she should be prepared to (re)accept you as her child, no matter what.
-- You got it right, Johnny. There are differences in what NT materials are considered canon (looky, a Wing Commander word!!!...) between the RCC & Protestant. Basically, if you're a RCC person, you get the six extra bonus books.
-- Indeed. That's sad about you & yer Mom, Rance. She needs to get with the (gospel) program. Indeed, mebbe she really ain't a Christian, but merely thinks she is (sadly, churches are full of folks like that)

BanditLOAF said:
No, it isn't. Religion exists to order society -- 'serving God' is a means to that end, not an end in and of itself...
OK, fine, I'll limit it to the Christian faith, then:
It exists not to order society, but to tell humans how to rightly serve their Creator, and to strengthen them in so doing. Serving mankind is a byproduct and consequence (and tangible evidence) of same.

vindicator said:
Preachey,

you never answered my question. Why, if gay is a choice would we choose to live such a hard life, full of hate, misrepresentation, and fear and stereotypes I could go on. so tell me exactly do you think people would choose to be gay?

... But fundementaly you believe that your faith is right over all the others! Therefore to say you have no problems with others bleifs is a 'lie' because the faith you follow does and you claim to be apart of it so you are subject to your faith's judgement

...Lacking what, the fact that christianty itself requires you do little more than obey some basic rules and believe in jesus and that if you believe in the forementioned you can be forgiven without really being accountable for your actions where as most other religions require much more self accountability and you say yours is right because you researched others? Meh, it's just personal preference.
-- Read on, MacDuff... Oh, sorry: go BACK & read my last post, I meant...
-- You sound as if the two are mutually exclusive; they ain't. I can live with the fact that you are gay, or that my neighbor is a Wiccan. I don't have to believe as they do to "not have a problem with" their belief
-- No, all sinners are accountable for their actions, Christian or not. The crucial difference is, the sin doesn't NEED to separate you eternally from God. Look at King David: He sinned with Bathsheba (among other things), and God gave him big-time consequences for that: The baby born of that union died, and God told David "because you have done this, the sword shall never depart from your house". Ever afterward, strife and conflict was David's lot within his family. Yet, he was forgiven of his sin by God because he truly repented of it, and remained "beloved of God".

Dark Ficus said:
Non religious individuals have no need to see anything as sinful or not sinful behavior.
Indeed. Their vocabulary knows not of the word "sin". If it did, they would have to account for the meaning of that word, and as we know, sin is the act of rebellion against God.

Pedro said:
...Oh come on...Go to mental hospital most have claimed to hear from god.

...There is NOTHING evil about being gay, it hurts no one. ...People who blindly follow ideas like gays are evil DO hurt other people and hence I am under no obligation to respect that belief...
..Your religion has made you an ass, you've activley insulted people who for all you know spend their entire lives helping other people, have saved 10 peoples lives and took a bullet for a small child. At the end of this you're saying god will say... yeah... but you were supposed to shag her, not him.
(1) Yup, and their demeanor, deeds, general lifestyle, and their own shrinkiatrists have only served to expose that fallacy.
(2) I been following this thread since I started it, and as of the last time I checked (~10 minutes ago), I don't recall *anyone* saying that gay folks are evil (oh, wait, I forgot: Some of the posts here have used that phrase when attempting to put those words into our mouths, but the problem is, we never SAID - or even implied - that).
(3) Hmmm, NOW who's being intolerant?...

...A great site I saw once said that had hitler repented on his death bed he would have gone to heaven and someone who saved 1,000,000 children with a vaccicne, lost their leg saving someone they'd never met, gave all their money to charity but didn't believe in god would go to hell.
...So basically he really doesn't care how good we are as people, how well we treat others, it doesn't matter if we make the world a better place... hes an evil egomaniac who punishes everyone who doesn't worship the ground he walks on.
...Most people have something called empathy where we can attempt to put ourselves into someone elses shoes. Of course if someone has already closed their mind to other peoples feelings they can not possibly understand them.
...as an atheist I believe that this life is all anyone gets, if you hurt people whilst you're in it then its a crime against humanity

-- I believe this boy may be on to something!...

-- Sure, He cares about that stuff, but it's not the primary thing of importance to Him, FAITH is. Everything begins with faith. For one who truly has faith in Him, that person will go on to accomplish all manner of "good deeds" thereafter. Check this out:

"... If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. "
(1Corinthians 13:1-3)


FYI, the love Paul speaks of here is not just love of our fellow humans, but moreover, the love of God. All the good deeds in the world will not save a one of us, but only faith in Christ. Conversely, all the evil deeds in the world will not cancel out for heaven for even ONE sinner who repents (so long as he TRULY repents, and turns from doing such deeds from there onward, the true proof of the genuineness of his faith). Marvel not that these concepts are hard to get your human minds around, for Paul tells us:

"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment"
(1Corinthians 2:10b-15)


-- Empathy is exactly it, Pedro!... It is empathy with our fallen human condition that caused God to LITERALLY put Himself in our shoes; moreover, in our very SKIN. It is this (among other things) that motivated God to become a man in the form of Jesus Christ. As a result, He is not "closed- minded" with our condition, but sympathizes in a way that only someone who has "been there" could. Hebrews 14:14-16 tells us that Jesus "was a man like us, in all things but sin". Check it out, for it has some other great stuff on this subject
-- Yeah, but notice how you didn't say it was a "sin". Interesting....
 
Dark Ficus said:
Your grasp of the Big Bang Theory is terribly flawed. Read a book or two on the subject and perhaps we can discuss this further..

Read several actually, attended lectures on the matter too, whilst my memory is a poor one your lack of any specifics leads me to believe you know absolutley nothing on the matter and that you're making the claim to give yourself a tactical advantage. I can pull out some books on the matter if I thought I was far enough off to care.


Dark Ficus said:
No, I never said that. I said "transcendent of time" or "independent of time."..

When something is independant it means it is not part of, you can replace the word with anything you can pull out of a thesaurus the point is the same.

Dark Ficus said:
Additionally, the sun itself is not the center of the solar system -- the sun wobbles (orbits a point within itself) due to the gravitational effects of the planets.

You're quibbling about a wobble? That wobble is a result of the gravity from the planets orbitting it pulling it slightly towards them which means if you took an average you'd probably find it dead on centre anyway (I'd have to try calculating that)


Dark Ficus said:
Precisely. Following WHO THEY ARE rather than following HIM. This is the main pillar of Christianity -- serving God rather than serving self.

To follow your own path does not mean to be self serving, your own path could be to devote your life to the handicapped, to serve god who could conjure up anything he pleased at the snap of his fingers would seem to be a far less worthy cause, infact it would seem rather stupid.

Dark Ficus said:
You missed part of that. I researched others before I was a Christian, before I was religious, heck, before I even fully believed that there was a God.

Since they're all pretty similar it usally comes down to preference, I can't say I disagree with the idea that you like christianity because it lets you do whatever you please until the day you die without consequence. A disgusting concept.


Dark Ficus said:
There's a lot more to it than that, as any Christian can tell you.

Theres a lot more to devil worshipping as any devil worshipper will tell you, and a lot more to stamp collecting as any stamp collector will tell you for that matter.
 
Preacher said:
-- Indeed. That's sad about you & yer Mom, Rance. She needs to get with the (gospel) program. Indeed, mebbe she really ain't a Christian, but merely thinks she is (sadly, churches are full of folks like that)

Now theres the elite christian and the sub christian, oh how the division of humanity continues, way to bring us all together christinanity :p (Gods Evilness score + 1)

Preacher said:
OK, fine, I'll limit it to the Christian faith, then:
It exists not to order society, but to tell humans how to rightly serve their Creator, and to strengthen them in so doing. Serving mankind is a byproduct and consequence (and tangible evidence) of same.

Well then once again we're all supposed to be slaves to this god who doesn't care what happens to us


Preacher said:
-- No, all sinners are accountable for their actions, Christian or not. The crucial difference is, the sin doesn't NEED to separate you eternally from God. Look at King David: He sinned with Bathsheba (among other things), and God gave him big-time consequences for that: The baby born of that union died, and God told David "because you have done this, the sword shall never depart from your house". Ever afterward, strife and conflict was David's lot within his family. Yet, he was forgiven of his sin by God because he truly repented of it, and remained "beloved of God".

The father sins so the baby dies? Way to go God, taking out your wrath on the innocent (Gods Evilness score + 2)


Preacher said:
Indeed. Their vocabulary knows not of the word "sin". If it did, they would have to account for the meaning of that word, and as we know, sin is the act of rebellion against God.


A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate
Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

Well I don't know about religous laws but I damn well know about moral laws, and I've seen quite a few broken by the church, this matter included!!!!!!


Preacher said:
(3) Hmmm, NOW who's being intolerant?...

Intolerant of intolerants? Yup guilty as charged, now if someone is intolerant of my intolerance to intolerance we'll have quite a tongue twister.



Preacher said:
-- Sure, He cares about that stuff, but it's not the primary thing of importance to Him, FAITH is. Everything begins with faith. For one who truly has faith in Him, that person will go on to accomplish all manner of "good deeds" thereafter. Check this out:

Why is faith important, who gains from it? What possible good can it serve?!

Preacher said:
-- Empathy is exactly it, Pedro!... It is empathy with our fallen human condition that caused God to LITERALLY put Himself in our shoes; moreover, in our very SKIN. It is this (among other things) that motivated God to become a man in the form of Jesus Christ. As a result, He is not "closed- minded" with our condition, but sympathizes in a way that only someone who has "been there" could. Hebrews 14:14-16 tells us that Jesus "was a man like us, in all things but sin". Check it out, for it has some other great stuff on this subject

I was talking about the empathy of christians not of god, Gods definition is hes supposed to have ooddles of empathy, not that the world exhibits much evidence of this.

Preacher said:
-- Yeah, but notice how you didn't say it was a "sin".

A transgression of a moral law, especially when deliberate.
Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

Ok NOW I'm saying its a sin, happy?
 
Pedro said:
...You're quibbling about a wobble?
...Since they're all pretty similar it usally comes down to preference, I can't say I disagree with the idea that you like christianity because it lets you do whatever you please until the day you die without consequence. A disgusting concept.
-- For the record, I don't quibble over wobbles, I wobble weebles :D
-- Um, and just whose "idea" is that, bub?... I didn't hear him say that; sounds a lot like your own strange interpretation, "a magnificent work of breathtaking ignorance".
Indeed, it looks like you haven't been following the thread too closely, or you'd have noticed an explanation for this seeming contradiction right above your post there. In plain English. Now THAT's disgusting...

Pedro said:
...Now theres the elite christian and the sub christian, oh how the division of humanity continues, way to bring us all together christinanity
... Well then once again we're all supposed to be slaves to this god who doesn't care what happens to us
...The father sins so the baby dies? Way to go God, taking out your wrath on the innocent.
...A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
...Why is faith important, who gains from it? What possible good can it serve?!
...Ok NOW I'm saying its a sin, happy?
-- Once again you have missed the point: It ain't elite- and sub- ANYthing: it's IS and AIN'T. I'm suggesting that maybe she's an "ain't" (for as I said before, there's all too many AIN'Ts that think they IS...). All I know is, her actions certainly don't seem to reflect on her as an "IS". Moreover, listen, bub: I was married to a woman like that. I got 12.5 years of knowing whereof I speak on that subject (unlike some people).
-- Wow, You're amazing. Do you just read the posts that support your view, and merely skim the rest?... It's been said over & over again that He DOES care what happens to us. See John 3:16. :rolleyes:
-- Relax, Chester; the baby is in heaven.
For sake of saving some space here, I'll remind you that this occurred in the OT times, and *that*, FYI, was still in the days of "the sins of the father shall be visited on the sons".
-- Well, it's good to see you can do a search on dictionary.com... It'd be kinda nice if you had a point to that, though...
-- Why?: "...without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
(Hebrews 11:6)


Faith benefits both God (since it pleases Him) and the the believer (since through faith one receives forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life). Aside from that, it serves no good whatsoever :p
-- No. Once again, the train has left the station while you were picking lint out of your navel.
 
Nope no explanation, hell I even heard him conceed the point, so I guess if you want to stand by your point your going to have to tell me where the contradiction is.....?
I don't see one, repent to god and be saved, everything else you do is meaningless
 
exactly,

this is the inferiority complex the christian church uses along with fear and others to keep it's people brainwashed

we a re in capable as humans to do anything that pleases god short of accepting jesus which means then I have to give 10% of my annual income to the church (that's before taxes) and then I have to go out and try to brainwash.....I mean teach people that they are worthless without god

-Rance-
 
Intresting bit of info, apparently people with nymphomaniac mothers are more likely to be gay.
 
Preacher said:
-- Relax, Chester; the baby is in heaven.
For sake of saving some space here, I'll remind you that this occurred in the OT times, and *that*, FYI, was still in the days of "the sins of the father shall be visited on the sons".

Gods changed his policy since then? :p


P.S. Sorry Vindicator.
 
To go back to some earlier posts...

The RCC has come out and said numerous times (because people don't usually pay attention to what they say) that you don't need to be a Christian/Catholic or turn to God/Jesus Christ at the end of your life to go to Heaven/Be Saved. All you need to do is be a good person. So if Mother Theresa had been an atheist she still would have gone heaven. Not that I'm saying you need to be a person as good as her (even though by her own account she sinned all the time) to get into heaven. The CC just says that going through them is an easier way because they can teach HOW to be a good person. And yes, it can also be done by repenting (your sins) on your deathbed.

Vindicator, from what I see on this board, you're a pretty decent person (as I would say most people are). You seem to have forgiven your mother for disowning you, but still want the relationship with her. You seem to hate the church, but that may just heal itself in time. I'm not saying you need to become an avid church goer, but so long as you can come to terms with what the church has to say and you're at peace with that, you should do just fine. I would really suggest that you go and maybe talk to a priest to find out what the church actually teaches about homosexuality. They're quite a bit more understanding than you think. You may never believe that you're a sinner for being a homosexual, but a priest would probably just tell you that that's ok and keep counseling you on how to deal with everything else that comes along with being homosexual, including your relationship with your mother.

My beliefs are rooted in both science and my faith. One of the nuggets of wisdom bestowed upon me by a science teacher in highschool was "I don't know how you can firmly believe in science and not believe in a god."

And...
mmmm fried sin
yummy
 
let me explain why I have posted here,

The only reason I am still posting is because I like to challenge those people that are rligous and show them that thing can't be so cut and dry to believe that is to be ignorant

-Rance-
 
Pedro said:
Nope no explanation, hell I even heard him conceed the point, so I guess if you want to stand by your point your going to have to tell me where the contradiction is.....? I don't see one, repent to god and be saved, everything else you do is meaningless
It wasn't any explanation of *his* I was referring to, but mine; Chew on this, since you couldn't be bothered to read what I said:
-- Sure, He cares about that stuff, but it's not the primary thing of importance to Him, FAITH is. Everything begins with faith. For one who truly has faith in Him, that person will go on to accomplish all manner of "good deeds" thereafter. Check this out:

"... If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. "
(1Corinthians 13:1-3)


FYI, the love Paul speaks of here is not just love of our fellow humans, but moreover, the love of God. All the good deeds in the world will not save a one of us, but only faith in Christ. Conversely, all the evil deeds in the world will not cancel out for heaven for even ONE sinner who repents (so long as he TRULY repents, and turns from doing such deeds from there onward, the true proof of the genuineness of his faith). Marvel not that these concepts are hard to get your human minds around, for Paul tells us:
Ring a bell?...

::shakes his head in amusement::

vindicator said:
...this is the inferiority complex the christian church uses along with fear and others to keep it's people brainwashed

...we are in capable as humans to do anything that pleases god short of accepting jesus which means then I have to give 10% of my annual income to the church (that's before taxes) and then I have to go out and try to brainwash.....I mean teach people that they are worthless without god
-- "Church uses brainwashing and fear to keep Christians in line?"... You're thinking of the "church" of Scientology. They're the second building down on the right. Say hi to Tom Cruise for us.

Good one!
::chuckles & snorts up his sleeve::

-- You must've been helping Pedro pick the lint from out of his navel, since you also missed the train on this.

dextorboot said:
The RCC has come out and said numerous times (because people don't usually pay attention to what they say) that you don't need to be a Christian/Catholic or turn to God/Jesus Christ at the end of your life to go to Heaven/Be Saved. All you need to do is be a good person.
Yep, I recall hearing this too about 1-2 years ago. Having been brought up RC myself, I was astonished, and couldn't believe it. Oh, well, it's just another one of the errors of the RCC. Heck, maybe they just said that so someone WOULD sit up and pay attention to what they said. For a monotheistic faith to say one doesn't need to believe in its God to go to heaven negates the very reason for the existence of that faith. "So they can teach you HOW to be good" is a pretty lame excuse. Sheesh, no wonder Martin Luther left...

vindicator said:
This should excite you if this is really the sign of the end times then the rapture will occur soon and You can be with Jesus

...how this bishop serving god has anything to do with him being gay perhaps he is cellibate ...what the heck is the problem if he can preach good and lead people to god does it matter that he's gay I mean you all say if he acts he sins if he thinks he sins
... is it just because he mentioned that he was gay because heck I don't see much difference and I don't see him on the news kissing a boyfriend or anything and I don't see him preaching that everyone should except him

so I don't get what the difference is both straight and gay live in sin and gays are really trying to better themselves moraly since 1987 gay couples are ten times more commited then in the past gay people are no more living in sin than most lost straight people so I still don't see a huge difference between us
-- Um, no, actually, it would make me quite sad. I would grieve for all those lost souls who hadn't yet come to the Savior, and would spend eternity separated from God - and thus from me: My Dad, brother, ex-wife & her son, bunches of nieces & nephews, and several old (and some new) friends of mine. Oh, and you, it would seem, though I never met you personally.
-- Nope, he's not celibate, he has a "partner". Like it or not, those who are leaders are role models for their followers; if you're openly gay serving/leading where gayness is preached against, you will inevitably lead some astray, or at least make a mockery out of your leadership role. And, the business of thinking it, then its a sin was a bit oversimplified by the one who posted it. I am attracted to women, and have "thoughts" about them all the time. A random brief sexual thought here and there is not sin; it can't be controlled. On the other hand, when I choose to entertain such thoughts, dwell on them, and having sexual fantasies about them, THAT is when I am sinning.
-- In a sense, YES, because he mentioned it: Once he has announced his gayness (and in his case, is actively PRACTICING same, since he has a partner), he is settting it out there for all to see and know about, and is in essence, setting himself up as an example for others to follow. Like it or not, that IS a de facto "preaching" that others should accept him. And, if he didn't seek for others to accept him, he woulda withdrawn his name from the ballot in the first place...

Pedro said:
Gods changed his policy since then?
God changing his policy from the OT to the NT?... Hmmm, wait a minute; lemme check...
::flip flip flip flip::

"...you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand..."
(Exodus 21:23-24)

::flip flip flip flip::

"But I tell you,... If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(Matthew 5:39)

Um, yeah, that would seem to be a big 10-4...
 
Preacher said:
It wasn't any explanation of *his* I was referring to, but mine; Chew on this, since you couldn't be bothered to read what I said:

Ring a bell?...

::shakes his head in amusement::


Yes it rings a bell, does my question of what can faith possibly accomplish not ring any bells with you? Why is god prioritising something he doesn't need (since he shouldn't need anything!) only severes to create rifits through human kind and won't benefit anyone?!
Don't you say that it makes NO sense for an omnipetant being but every bit of sense for a religous leader trying to expand his flock?
 
"Yep, I recall hearing this too about 1-2 years ago. Having been brought up RC myself, I was astonished, and couldn't believe it. Oh, well, it's just another one of the errors of the RCC. Heck, maybe they just said that so someone WOULD sit up and pay attention to what they said. For a monotheistic faith to say one doesn't need to believe in its God to go to heaven negates the very reason for the existence of that faith. "So they can teach you HOW to be good" is a pretty lame excuse. Sheesh, no wonder Martin Luther left..."

Wow, what an ignorant statement. Catholic means universal. Everyone is invited to Gods kingdom. There are multiple paths (just like a good WC game). The reason for faith is to save your soul, not to worship a particular God. And you seem smart enough to know that THAT is not why Martin Luther left. In fact, that was one of things he argued. He didn't leave the Church, he was thrown out, he never intended to create a separate denomination. Not to mention that most of his disputes about the Church have actually been confirmed by the Church and the changes he asked for have been made.
 
vindicator said:
This should excite you if this is really the sign of the end times then the rapture will occur soon and You can be with Jesus :) :)

-Rance-

I look foreward to this everyday and have a question for you, when this happens, what will happen to you? Now I have to go to work now and look foreward to reading your answer in the morning. God Bless.

Jim
 
dextorboot said:
...Wow, what an ignorant statement. Catholic means universal. Everyone is invited to Gods kingdom...
...And you seem smart enough to know that THAT is not why Martin Luther left.
-- No, "catholic" means universal; "Catholic", on the other hand, means (generally) Roman Catholic. Two related but different words. Sure, everyone is invited to God's kingdom ("God is not willing that any should perish"), but according to the gospel, only those who do God's will, and follow the commands of Christ will actually ENTER it. Again, two different concepts. The NT is brimming with passages that make it as clear as it can possibly be made that Jesus is the ONLY way. I will cite only one here, since there are dozens, mebbe hundreds of others that say the same thing in a myriad of different ways:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:12)

Thus for the RCC (or any other supposedly Christian denomination) to assert that there are multiple (or even ANY) paths other than Jesus... Now THAT, mi amigo, is an ignorant statement. Oh, not to mention that it's flat-out heresy; a lie from the pit of hell.
-- Ya needs to turn on your joke-o-meter, Dex...

Pedro said:
...my question of what can faith possibly accomplish not ring any bells with you?
...Why is god prioritising something he doesn't need (since he shouldn't need anything!) only severes to create rifits through human kind...
...Don't you say that it makes NO sense for an omnipetant being but every bit of sense for a religous leader trying to expand his flock?
-- Yup, I already answered it. Look, God may not need it, but nonetheless He CHOSE to create us that he might receive it (our worship and fellowship) from/with us. The only rift is created by the fact that He also CHOSE to give us free will. As such, He opened the door to folks rejecting him instead. Why did He choose to give us free will?...Well, stop & think about it: Would you prefer someone to love you because they had no choice and were "programmed" to do so, or would you want someone to love you because they freely CHOSE to?... I don't know about you, but most folks I know would prefer that they be loved because the other person freely CHOSE to love 'em.
-- No, I don't say that; YOU did. You're trying to fit God in a human-sized box, and it simply can't be done - The Lord and creator of all existence is far too big for that...
 
Ok Preach, so you say that the Church has been wrong before and made many mistakes and yet you use the NT to back up your arguments. Doesn't make sense. The NT is just a collection of texts that the Church decided should be part of their sacred texts. We now know that there were other texts Christians followed before the NT was what it is today. By doing what you're doing you're negating your own argument. By your own words, the Church could be wrong about what it included in the NT. It's also the Church's belief that the NT is man-made. Biblical historians confirm that there were other texts that didn't hold with what the Church wanted so they just keep them out. They also confirm the high possibility that (even though they believe it was written by God through the writers) the writers own beliefs entered the texts.

To say that the RCC (or any other denomination) is wrong in its teachings, then using the sacred texts (colored by each denominations printing of it) to back your argument doesn't hold water. All you're really doing is deciding what parts of the Bible (whichever version you're using) should be taken literally and which should not. All denominations caution against this. It's people with your thinking that caused the Crusades and the Inquisition. I'll be the first to admit the RCC has many black eyes in it's history.

Most would agree that any word put at the beginning of a sentence is capitalized. You obviously recognize the two are related, meaning it's no accident that it's called "The Roman Catholic Church."

My joke-o-meter is always on, the needle just doesn't move for jokes that aren't funny. :rolleyes:
 
I give up, I mean you can't even see the problems with a fair and just god requiring your love to goto heaven, your belief despite the evidence leaning far in the direction of him not actually existing, scientific evidence contradicting everything in the bible (we're 6000 years old are eh? ;))

Consider this my last post, I've had this conversation too many times and the circular logic never does anything to sway me.
 
Erkle said:
I look foreward to this everyday and have a question for you, when this happens, what will happen to you? Now I have to go to work now and look foreward to reading your answer in the morning. God Bless.

Jim

well here is what I say since it is documented that the churches of the past have always preached that Jesus is coming soon from Christopher columbus to Jerry Fawell and got it wrong so far I won't hold my breath

-Rance-
 
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