The Behemoth in WCIII was a stupid idea

[Sarty]

The behemoth has a big gun. I think I was actually a well-conceived idea since it represents at least one Confed attempt at a major first strike. From the beginning of the war on confed showed itselof to be reluctant at best when it comes to a major offensive...as if they were afraid to open the door to more aggresive Kilrathi pursuits, I.e. they would be raising the stakes to total annhilation and so forth

It is understandable from my point of view why Confed was reluctant to make the risky offensive strikes. It is stated in Fleet Action that because of the success of the escort carriers, they were close to finally making numerical parity with the Kilrathi. This points out that they have NEVER had the numbers to match the Kilrathi toe to toe. Obviously, the gap they had begun to close opened nice and wide again after the false truce, again putting them way under as far as numbers go. This is a pretty good reason to not pursue risky offensives IMO because the Kilrathi simply have more ships to spare.

 

[Devari]

Sounds like you're making an issue out of nothing. The strontium warheads in Fleet Action were a big deal, not a "no problem" thing, and the bioweapons in Heart of the Tiger weren't much later, nor were they the same. It wouldn't be inconsistent for current world leaders to contemplate one and not the other. Bioweapons have a different psychological impact, they react differently once they're deployed and they have a different capacity to spread beyond the site of introduction.

First, the way the Kilrathi's mentality was described in Fleet Action simply doesn't match up with their mentality at the start of the WC3 novel. In Fleet Action, the Emperor and Prince Thrakhath made a point of destroying three Terran worlds with strontium warheads and were fully intending to do the same thing to Earth. The crew of the Kilrathi destroyers who tried to launch strontium warheads on Earth didn't seem to have any problem with the orders either, and actually appeared to be eager to destroy the Terran homeworld. The only Kilrathi who voiced any concerns over the use of the strontium warheads was Bargon Jukaga, and he was a unique case because of his exposure to human culture. At the start of the WC3 novel, however, the Emperor and Prince Thrakhath are discussing the use of the new biological weapons and seem to be somewhat reluctant to use them because they aren't an honourable way of defeating an opponent. But if they were so concerned about being honourable, why did they order the unnecessary destruction of Terran worlds during Fleet Action? In fact, if Jukaga hadn't killed the bridge crew of the destroyer before they could launch a strontium warhead, they would have already turned Earth into a raidoactive wasteland with their Hakaga fleet.

Secondly, as I mentioned in my earlier post, saturating a world with radiation is much more devastating then launching a bioweapon attack, since radiation kills virtually all life on a planet while a bioweapon is targeted at a single species (in this case humans). Since Confed can simply quarantine a world like they did with Locanda IV there isn't really any risk of the bioweapon spreading to other planets. And if they ever managed to develop a cure, they could try to reinhabit Earth in the future. With radiation poisioning, however, there's really no effective way to repopulate the planet. The entire biosphere will be destroyed and the contamination will last for thousands of years. So it really doesn't make sense for the Empire to be willing to use strontium warheads without any concerns but suddenly have a problem with biological weapons that are actually less destructive.

It might not be a critical issue that ruins the novels, but it certainly isn't consistent and doesn't help the plot. And it isn't the only example of inconsistencies in the novels, either. For example, at the start of Fleet Action when the Kilrathi are discussing the problems the Empire is having with the loss of transport ships from Confed raids, the authors mention that Kilrathi who accept assignments to transport ships are shunned by by other Kilrathi for not serving combat duty. But later in the book when Jukaga is criticized by one of the Kilrathi warriors about how his clan develops Kilrathi technology rather than fighting on the front lines of the war, he reminds them that they couldn't fight effectively without the technology his clan develops and that seems to shut them up. So if the Kilrathi can recognize the value in developing technology to support their ability to fight, why do they look down on the transport crews who are just as essential in the war? Especially since a transport crew is directly involved the war effort and is exposed to much more danger then the Kilrathi scientists and engineers who develop technology on the Kilrathi worlds?

I've enjoyed reading the books and I like the background material they provide for the wing commander universe, but in many cases the novels contradict themselves in very annoying ways.

 

[Halman]

Well, it's easy to understand that one method of extermination is acceptable and one isn't.
And just as easy to why a warrior culture would look down on anyone who doesn't fight.

 

[BusbyLogic]

Wasnt the bulk of the kat fleet forming around kilrah which is the main reason its destruction weakend the empire so much *remember the battered dreadnaught that tractered you in at the end*

 

[Dahan]

The Fleet around Kilrah was suppose to be a another fleet that would take on Earth a second time round or a the incident at McAuliffe in 2634
I dont think that was the bulk I am not sure but then after looking at the movie I think that it might be

 

[Devari]

Well, it's easy to understand that one method of extermination is acceptable and one isn't.

Only if there's an obvious difference between the severity of the two methods that exaplains whey they are viewed differently. In this case, the less destructive method (bioweapons) is being treated as more distasteful then the more destructive method (radiation poisioning). There is simply no logcial reason why the Kilrathi should view bioweapons as being worse than radiation poisioning. If anything, they should view radiation poisioning as being worse because it renders the planet totally useless for both the Kilrathi and the humans.

And just as easy to why a warrior culture would look down on anyone who doesn't fight.

Again, only if their rationale is applied in a consistent manner. If the Kilrathi look down on anyone who doesn't fight, why do they only seem to have a problem with transport crew members? We know that Kilrathi engineers (the members of Jukaga's clan) who don't fight and are in no immediate danger from the war are still treated with respect by other Kilrathi warriors. Transport crew members, on the other hand, are treated like the lowest members of Kilrathi society even though they carry out an absolutely essential function and are exposed to considerable danger during the war (since their transports are easily destroyed in combat). Transport crews can't participate in feasting celebrations, can't start their own hrai, and so on. Why would the Kilrathi treat their transport crews so badly when they are actually taking on more hazardous duties then the engineers? And how could the Kilrathi possibly fail to realize how essential transports are in the war and give their crews at least a minimum of respect? The only reason the Kilrathi offered the false armistice was because the losses sustained by their transport fleet prevented them from continuing carrier construction, so there is no way the Kilrathi could suggest that transport duties are somehow unimportant.

I like how the Kilrathi have been given more background in the novels, but when the authors provide totally inconsistent examples of Kilrathi behiavior it makes it impossible to get a clear idea of how the Kilrathi are supposed to act.

 

[Death]

The destrcution of Kilrah did destroy a lot of the kat fleet, but it was still only one planet out of hundreds with kat warships around it. Also, as we saw in False Colors, the destruction around Kilrah wasn't complete. Where one dreadnaught survived, other ships may also have survived.

 

[Ijuin]

I think that transport crews basically have the status of porters. In pre-industrial human wars, porters would carry around the extra equipment that the army needed--all of the tents and food and other supplies that couldn't be carried by the soldiers and war horses. Porters however were noncombatants, and were basically treated as domestic servants for the army.

 

[Devari]

I think that transport crews basically have the status of porters. In pre-industrial human wars, porters would carry around the extra equipment that the army needed--all of the tents and food and other supplies that couldn't be carried by the soldiers and war horses. Porters however were noncombatants, and were basically treated as domestic servants for the army.

That could partially explain the Kilrathi attitude, although the novel mentions that they "accept an assignment" to a transport, which seems to imply that they aren't forced to serve on board the transports. But considering how badly transport crews are treated by the Kilrathi I can't figure out why any Kilrathi would ever voluntarily accept a transport assignment. It's not like serving on a transport is particularly safe or easy, since transports are lightly armed and are very easy targets for Confed fighters. In fact, transport crews on the front lines probably face as much danger as pilots and marines. So why would any Kilrathi choose to serve on a transport when it involves risking their life and reduces their status to almost nothing in Kilrathi society? Based on the information in the novels it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Death]

While the novels do give a lot more insight into social issues than can reasonably be addressed by the games, they hardly address the entirety of Kilrathi society. Heck, they don't even address the entirety of human society as of the 27th century.

 

[Devari]

Wasnt the bulk of the kat fleet forming around kilrah which is the main reason its destruction weakend the empire so much *remember the battered dreadnaught that tractered you in at the end*

The main reason that destroying Kilrah was so important was that it would kill the Emperor and most of the senior officers in the Kilrathi military. Since the Kilrathi leadership is so centralized and the different clans were all fighting for power, killing the Imperial family and destroying Kilrah would throw them into total chaos. The idea was that the Kilrathi clans would be so busy fighting each other trying to gain control of the Empire that the Confedration could defeat them relatively easily. The destruction of a large part of the Kilrathi fleet that was in orbit when Kilrah was destroyed was really just a bonus, it wasn't the main reason for attacking Kilrah.

 

[Halman]

I can't tell if you're being dense or stupid.

Nuking a planet from orbit and dropping bio-weapons are both methods of killing the people on the planet, but they aren't at all the same. Sure, the kilrathi wanted humanity gone, and lets just pretend that the war itself doesn't entail widescale use of high yield weapons every day to kill people, but why can't you accept that they found using germ weapons distasteful?

I won't even comment on the transport thing, because it seems pretty obvious.

 

[Devari]

I can't tell if you're being dense or stupid.

OK, first point. Don't start talking shit like a little bitch just because I disagree with you. If you're trying to turn the thread into some kind of flame war, go right ahead. I really don't care one way or another. But if you actually have something intelligent to say, try to make your point (assuming you have one) by actually addressing what I've posted.

Secondly, have you actually been reading my posts? You don't seem to have any understanding of what I've been saying, so I'll try to rephrase it below.

Nuking a planet from orbit and dropping bio-weapons are both methods of killing the people on the planet, but they aren't at all the same. Sure, the kilrathi wanted humanity gone, and lets just pretend that the war itself doesn't entail widescale use of high yield weapons every day to kill people, but why can't you accept that they found using germ weapons distasteful?

You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. I don't have any problem understanding why the Kilrathi found using bioweapons distasteful. They actually explain in the WC3 novel that the Kilrathi don't consider it honourable because it kills the enemy without direct combat. But this is the same thing the strontium warheads did to the human planets in Fleet Action, and in that novel the only Kilrathi who had any objections was Bargon Jukaga. So why would the Kilrathi consider killing a planet's poplation with bioweapons to be more distasteful then killing a planet with radiation? As far as a Kilrathi is concerned, they're exactly the same thing because they kill their enemies without engaging them in direct combat. The two novels (Fleet Action and the WC3 novel) have the Kilrathi treating the two things differently without providing any explanation as to why radiation poisioning would be more acceptable to them than biological warfare.

I won't even comment on the transport thing, because it seems pretty obvious.

Then you can provide an explanation as to why any Kilrathi would voluntarily accept an assignment on a transport when they lose almost all honour by doing so? Or why the Kilrathi would have such a low opinon of transport crews when they don't seem to have a problem with engineers or other non-combatants? Because so far you haven't provided any logical reason that is supported by the novels. Your suggestion that the Kilrathi simply "look down on anyone who doesn't fight" doesn't make any sense because Jukaga's clan also didn't fight (they designed weapons and ships) but they were not shunned by the Kilrathi warriors.

 

[Frosty]

As far as a Kilrathi is concerned, they're exactly the same thing because they kill their enemies without engaging them in direct combat.

This is a stupid argument because it doesn't allow for superstition or the application of cultural significance.

At the very least there is a precedent for precisely this kind of behavior in our own recent past: Consider that the firebombing of Tokyo was at least as lethal as the atomic deployments against Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and perhaps far worse for the victims - who asphyxiated amidst a roaring inferno, where their compatriots were smashed instantaneously by a crushing shockwave and likely never knew what hit them, save for the few who survived - yet it is overshadowed completely by the horror and outrage, felt even to this day, for the atomic strikes.

They both accomplished exactly the same task, albeit with differing levels of efficiency, so why on Earth are there different reactions? According to your limited behavior model, everything I've just said is inexplicable.

Returning to the Wing Commander context, it's clear that bioweapons are a sneaky, comparitively dishonest form of attack from the viewpoint of the Kilrathi, who value honor as well as victory, and would rather use their more conventional nuclear arsenal, against which there are effective defenses.

Not. The. Same. Thing.

 

[Devari]

This is a stupid argument because it doesn't allow for superstition or the application of cultural significance.

At the very least there is a precedent for precisely this kind of behavior in our own recent past: Consider that the firebombing of Tokyo was at least as lethal as the atomic deployments against Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and perhaps far worse for the victims - who asphyxiated amidst a roaring inferno, where their compatriots were smashed instantaneously by a crushing shockwave and likely never knew what hit them, save for the few who survived - yet it is overshadowed completely by the horror and outrage, felt even to this day, for the atomic strikes.

They both accomplished exactly the same task, albeit with differing levels of efficiency, so why on Earth are there different reactions? According to your limited behavior model, everything I've just said is inexplicable.

The firebombing of Tokyo and the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did NOT accomplish the same task at all. They were completely different things. Despite what you might read on Wikipedia, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were of little military significance and were simply selected as examples to demonstrate what nuclear weapons were capable of. Those cities were not justifiable military targets and shouldn't have been bombed with atomic weapons. The firebombing of Tokyo, on the other hand, was excessive but it was directed at a city that was of tremendous significance to the Japanese. So it's not surprizing at all that people view the two things differently.

Returning to the Wing Commander context, it's clear that bioweapons are a sneaky, comparitively dishonest form of attack from the viewpoint of the Kilrathi, who value honor as well as victory, and would rather use their more conventional nuclear arsenal, against which there are effective defenses.

Not. The. Same. Thing.

Have you actually read Fleet Action? Because it sounds like you think that the Kilrathi simply destroyed military targets with nuclear weapons. That's not what they used the weapons for at all. The Confederation and Kilrathi use anti-matter warheads for striking military targets since they are considerably more powerful than nuclear warheads. The only nuclear weapons the Kilrathi used in Fleet Action were strontium-based warheads that were designed specifically to detonate in a planet's atmosphere to spread radioactive contamination and destroy the planet's ability to support life. Similarly, the Kilrathi bioweapons from WC3 were designed to spread rapidly and wipe out the population of a planet. In both cases, the intent was to kill the poplulation of a planet and render the planet uninhabitable rather than engage the enemy in direct combat. So as far as a Kilrathi is concerned, the two types of attacks ARE the same thing. Neither of them engage the enemy in direct, honourable combat. Which is why it makes no sense for them to treat bioweapons different from radioactive contamination.

 

[CptnEisen]

Hmm, well I don't have any reference material with me right now (ie novels) but, iirc, when the Kilrathi launched the nuclear attacks, had they not decided the war had become one of total annihilation, they had lost all (though little) respect for humans after they fell for the false armistace... and so there was no longer any honour in fighting them, they just wanted them gone. However, after the Terrans succesfully fought them back, perhaps the Kilrathi's opinions again swung back to one of treating the humans with the warrior spirit - can't recall the kilrathi word for it right now, but surely a war against such a foe using weapons of mass destruction without the honour of more direct combat would be a dishonour to the Kilrathi... I have no idea if this makes any sense, but just wanted to add my own thoughts from what I can vaguely remember of the novels - please feel free to shoot down this theory

 

[Devari]

Hmm, well I don't have any reference material with me right now (ie novels) but, iirc, when the Kilrathi launched the nuclear attacks, had they not decided the war had become one of total annihilation, they had lost all (though little) respect for humans after they fell for the false armistace... and so there was no longer any honour in fighting them, they just wanted them gone. However, after the Terrans succesfully fought them back, perhaps the Kilrathi's opinions again swung back to one of treating the humans with the warrior spirit - can't recall the kilrathi word for it right now, but surely a war against such a foe using weapons of mass destruction without the honour of more direct combat would be a dishonour to the Kilrathi... I have no idea if this makes any sense, but just wanted to add my own thoughts from what I can vaguely remember of the novels - please feel free to shoot down this theory

That explanation actually does a very good job of explaining a possible shift in Kilrathi viewpoint from Fleet Action to WC3. We have no actual inidcation that the Kilrathi had regained any of the respect they lost for the humans after they allowed themselves to be fooled by the false armistice, but it's the best explanation I've heard so far. The WC3 novel explains that bioweapons were only allowed to be used on "prey" species rather than "predators", and the Emperor and Prince Thrakhath still considered humans to be a "prey" species during WC3 so it doesn't seem like their own attitudes had changed since Fleet Action. But if the other Kilrathi had started to regain some respect for humans it could explain why the Emperor and Thrakhath were somewhat reluctant to use bioweapons, since they wouldn't want to give the other clans an excuse to overthrow them (i.e., if the other Kilrathi felt that the Emperor was fighting the war dishonourably there may have been more support to usurp the Imperial family).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It seems like the cultural difference is that the Strontium-90 warheads require the Kilrathi to fight their way to a planet (Jukaga's captain mentions this) and then take out its defenses head on before being used... the "unique" aspect of the bioweapon was that it was delivered using cloaked missiles.

 

[Devari]

It seems like the cultural difference is that the Strontium-90 warheads require the Kilrathi to fight their way to a planet (Jukaga's captain mentions this) and then take out its defenses head on before being used... the "unique" aspect of the bioweapon was that it was delivered using cloaked missiles.

In both cases the Kilrathi have to fight to get within missile range, so I don't think the actual missile attack would be any different whether bioweaopns or strontium warheads were used. We don't have any indication that the skipper missiles were a unique delivery system that could only be used with bioweapons, so they almost certainly could have armed the missiles with strontium warheads if they wanted to instead. The only advantage I can think of for using a bioweapon is that if the Kilrathi are immune to the bioweapon then they can simply take over the planet once the human population was killed. With a strontium warhead the planet is totally useless for both the humans and the Kilrathi. In both cases I think the Kilrathi would view the attacks in the same way, since using radioactive contamination to kill your enemy or using a bio-engineered pathogen to kill your enemy are both dishonourable ways to kill another warrior.

 

[Sarty]

You also have to remember how the Kilrathi felt during Fleet Action as opposed to WC3. When the fleet with the Hakagas were moving towards Earth, the Kilrathi had declared they would completely eradicate not only the human race, but every planet they lived on. Due to the signing of the false treaty, they had lost all respect for humans. Many Kilrathi had been beginning to think that humans were not prey as the Emperor though, and they thought the humans were honorable fighters. After the Confed government signed their false treaty, they saw the humans as beneath contempt. The humans were seen not as prey again, but below prey, worthy only of mass slaughter, hence the use of Strontium 90.

Now maybe in WC3, due to their losses at the Battle of Earth and the fact the Confed was still standing, the Kilrathi were regaining their respect for humans. Its obvious Thrakkath never had any, but maybe he was afraid of angering too many other clans by using something the Kilrathi thought of as distasteful against an enemy that the Kilrathi as a whole saw to be worthy adversaries.

Obviously this is all speculation but thats my read on it. The Kilrathi were in a murder frenzy when they decided to use Strontium 90, not so when they used the bioweapons.