The Behemoth in WCIII was a stupid idea
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ChrisReid
Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
And not long before WC3, the Tarawa proved a small quick strike force would penetrate deep into the empire if fleet carriers and such were holding the lines and keeping the main Kilrathi forces occupied. The Tarawa run was successful because of somewhat unique circumstances, but resources were strapped all around.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I think part of the idea was that the Kilrathi have a great track on the fleet carriers -- so Tolwyn had to quietly assign his best assets (Blair, Hobbes and other Concordia veterans) to a second tier light carrier group to hide his intentions.
BrynS
Mr Kat says...
It's been a few years since I read the WC3 novel, so my recollection is probably incomplete, but thinking back I can't understand why Confed HQ didn't put a higher priority on the Behemoth endeavour, given that they knew how badly the war was going.
Granted, Tolwyn had burnt some bridges and was maligned by elements of the command structure and the Behemoth was incomplete, untested and a very risky proposition. There was also the additional pressure compelling Confed to up the ante and respond to the Kilrathi bio-weapon attacks, which may have forced an already accelerated deployment of Behemoth. Given all of these setbacks, the Behemoth was still a viable solution to ending the war on favourable terms and with Paladin's Temblor Bomb project in limbo at the time (without Dr Severin), it was effectively the only solution.
Knowing that, I find it hard to realistically comprehend within the game universe why Confed HQ proceeded with half measures on the operation, when they knew that the Temblor bomb wasn't yet viable. During the operation covering the temblor bomb strike, a considerable Confed force was assembled and yet a paltry few ships was deemed adequate to cover the Behemoth.
Although I can't recall any specific timeframes for the Behemoth regarding time to charge the weapon and the required/optimum firing distance, the Kilrah briefing simulation would suggest it to be fairly quick, i.e. exit jump in Kilrah, charge weapon and fire; so perhaps a couple of hours at most? As you indicated Loaf, the Kilrathi obviously monitored fleet carrier movements in great detail, yet as evidenced in End Run, Confed have the ability to obfuscate large fleet movements to varying degrees and for limited periods, although the Kilrathi would undoubtedly realise something was up before too long, but not before a concentrated breakout could occur.
I would suggest that given the will and determination from HQ to put the highest priority on the Behemoth operation (surely the only viable solution at the time, game plot aside?) that the bulk of the fleet could be gathered around Behemoth for a push through to Kilrah. While losses may have been high, with that kind of protection, the Behemoth should have been able to make it to Kilrah and deploy, even if destroyed afterwards or on the return to the lines, while the remaining ships fought a rear-guard action to allow the fleet to return to Confed space. Assuming the Behemoth deployment was successful, a large portion of the Imperial fleet assembling above Kilrah would be destroyed as well putting Confed in a very favourable position if the Kilrathi continued the war.
While I recognise and accept the WC3 plot within the context of the game, which works well by increasing dramatic turns and ratcheting up the suspense, within the wc universe "reality" at the time, I fail to see how Confed HQ could do anything but fully support Tolwyn's Behemoth operation.
Cheers,
BrynS
Granted, Tolwyn had burnt some bridges and was maligned by elements of the command structure and the Behemoth was incomplete, untested and a very risky proposition. There was also the additional pressure compelling Confed to up the ante and respond to the Kilrathi bio-weapon attacks, which may have forced an already accelerated deployment of Behemoth. Given all of these setbacks, the Behemoth was still a viable solution to ending the war on favourable terms and with Paladin's Temblor Bomb project in limbo at the time (without Dr Severin), it was effectively the only solution.
Knowing that, I find it hard to realistically comprehend within the game universe why Confed HQ proceeded with half measures on the operation, when they knew that the Temblor bomb wasn't yet viable. During the operation covering the temblor bomb strike, a considerable Confed force was assembled and yet a paltry few ships was deemed adequate to cover the Behemoth.
Although I can't recall any specific timeframes for the Behemoth regarding time to charge the weapon and the required/optimum firing distance, the Kilrah briefing simulation would suggest it to be fairly quick, i.e. exit jump in Kilrah, charge weapon and fire; so perhaps a couple of hours at most? As you indicated Loaf, the Kilrathi obviously monitored fleet carrier movements in great detail, yet as evidenced in End Run, Confed have the ability to obfuscate large fleet movements to varying degrees and for limited periods, although the Kilrathi would undoubtedly realise something was up before too long, but not before a concentrated breakout could occur.
I would suggest that given the will and determination from HQ to put the highest priority on the Behemoth operation (surely the only viable solution at the time, game plot aside?) that the bulk of the fleet could be gathered around Behemoth for a push through to Kilrah. While losses may have been high, with that kind of protection, the Behemoth should have been able to make it to Kilrah and deploy, even if destroyed afterwards or on the return to the lines, while the remaining ships fought a rear-guard action to allow the fleet to return to Confed space. Assuming the Behemoth deployment was successful, a large portion of the Imperial fleet assembling above Kilrah would be destroyed as well putting Confed in a very favourable position if the Kilrathi continued the war.
While I recognise and accept the WC3 plot within the context of the game, which works well by increasing dramatic turns and ratcheting up the suspense, within the wc universe "reality" at the time, I fail to see how Confed HQ could do anything but fully support Tolwyn's Behemoth operation.
Cheers,
BrynS
I think it just wasn't possible for them. If they moved even a single task force to defend the Behemoth, the line would break and Kilrathi Fleets would reach Earth, at which point destroying Kilrah wouldn't help us. Hell, everyone estimated the line would break the way it was sooner or later. Plus, given how badly the Kilrathi outnumbered Confed, no amount of support could have helped the Behemoth break through to Kilrah. It would have been impossible to just smash their way into the Kilrah system given the kind of shape the fleet was in. They had to go with a more covert option.
Halman
PSY-YI-YI
I think the problem with using a large number of ships to protect the Behemoth is that the ships were needed elsewhere. You couldn't pull several carriers away from their stations without having the kilrathi notice. So the fact that that they kept the escort small was supposed to protect it.
By the time they needed to use the temblor bomb, they had no choice but to go all out. They were losing the conventional war, and their giant gun just blew up.
By the time they needed to use the temblor bomb, they had no choice but to go all out. They were losing the conventional war, and their giant gun just blew up.
BrynS
Mr Kat says...
Yeah, I'm sure it would be a logistical nightmare trying to manoeuvre various, dispersed fleets, engaged in action, across the front lines to a staging area while not tipping off the Kilrathi, but then again a somewhat similar action was undertaken a few years earlier as detailed in End Run.
As you guys mentioned, such a move would normally be highly unlikely as abandoning front line positions would leave the way clear for the Kilrathi to charge into Confed space uncontested, but then again such a move, while incredibly risky, would need to include various forms of deception, fabrication and feint to give Confed time to mobilise and to confuse and/or lull the enemy. If this was successful and allowed Confed to quickly build-up a suitably concentrated force, with some daring and surprise, it should be able to break through the lines at the weakest point and head for Kilrah. Once alerted, all Kilrathi ships would probably be directed to intercept, even those pressing forward into uncontested Confed systems. Surely this is doable if a similar fleet was eventually staged in a later timeframe in Hyperion for the Temblor bomb strike?
I'm just trying to rationalise this possibilty from the perspective of Confed HQ at the time of the approval of the Behemoth deployment, with the proviso that at that time the Temblor Bomb was simply not an option. Just how desperate were they? Desperate enough to throw everything in with the Behemoth?
Cheers,
BrynS
As you guys mentioned, such a move would normally be highly unlikely as abandoning front line positions would leave the way clear for the Kilrathi to charge into Confed space uncontested, but then again such a move, while incredibly risky, would need to include various forms of deception, fabrication and feint to give Confed time to mobilise and to confuse and/or lull the enemy. If this was successful and allowed Confed to quickly build-up a suitably concentrated force, with some daring and surprise, it should be able to break through the lines at the weakest point and head for Kilrah. Once alerted, all Kilrathi ships would probably be directed to intercept, even those pressing forward into uncontested Confed systems. Surely this is doable if a similar fleet was eventually staged in a later timeframe in Hyperion for the Temblor bomb strike?
I'm just trying to rationalise this possibilty from the perspective of Confed HQ at the time of the approval of the Behemoth deployment, with the proviso that at that time the Temblor Bomb was simply not an option. Just how desperate were they? Desperate enough to throw everything in with the Behemoth?
Cheers,
BrynS
spiritplumber
Spaceman
Depends on the Behemoth's operating range... if you know how fast your Death Ray travels, it's fairly easy to hit a PLANET since it has a predictable trajectory, so you can fire from a while away. Sure the kats would try to get stuff in the way of the beam, but could they do that in time?
I can't remember if Confed new about the new Grand Fleet, but either way the Kilrathi did have a home fleet. A confed battle group breaking through the front lines and hammering its way towards Kilrah would definately draw their attention. I jus don't think that, given the shape of the Confed fleet, ANY amount of consolidation would have given the Behemoth a strong enough defense.
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Sarty said:
I think that any chance for the behemoth to succede would have relied of the potential for a small fleet to remain undetected long enough for them to hop into range of Kilrah for the Behemoth to get a shot off before they brought the kilrathi fleet down on themselves.
Oh, I thought that because of the way it was quoted he thought I was in favor of a large fleet. My bad.
Another point, you have to consider the sheer size of the Behemoth from the defenders POV. It obviously is not very maneuverable. You wouldn't want a large fleet that takes time to organize defending something too slow to move away from a threat on its own. A lighter task force with the ability to move and engage any hostiles quickly before they are in range to fire on the Behemoth would be preferred.
Another point, you have to consider the sheer size of the Behemoth from the defenders POV. It obviously is not very maneuverable. You wouldn't want a large fleet that takes time to organize defending something too slow to move away from a threat on its own. A lighter task force with the ability to move and engage any hostiles quickly before they are in range to fire on the Behemoth would be preferred.
As others have already mentioned, they really didn't have any other choice but to send a small escort for the Behemoth since the Confed fleet also had to defend against an imminent Kilrathi attack on Earth. Even if they could provide a larger esort, the Confdederation forces were still at somewhat of a disadvantage, since all the Kilrathi had to do is get a single ship to successfully launch a bioweapon on Earth, or for that matter even one of the strontium-based nuclear warheads they used during Fleet Action.
That actually brings up another point, the bioweapons were described in the WC3 novel as a devastating "new" weapon, but we already know from Fleet Action that a radiation attack would have acheived the same result of rendering a planet unihabitable. In fact, a raidation attack probably would have been worse, since it would have destroyed almost all life on the planet, whereas a bioweapon would have only been targeted at the human population and would have left the rest of the planet mostly unharmed (and they likely could have reinhabited Earth later if a cure for the bioweapon was developed). It's rather amusing that the Emperor and Thrakhath had no problem irraditating human worlds to render the planets completely uninhabitable in Fleet Action but were initially somewhat reluctant to use bioweaopns to achieve the same result in the WC3 novel. In both cases the Kilrathi wouldn't be conducting an honourable battle, so if they already used nuclear contamination to destroy planets why would they suddenly have problems using bioweapons? Since Forstchen wrote (or at least co-authored) both Fleet Action and the WC3 novel the Kilrathi should have been reasonably consistent. I suppose it's just another example of how the background material is never completely consistent even if its from the same author.
That actually brings up another point, the bioweapons were described in the WC3 novel as a devastating "new" weapon, but we already know from Fleet Action that a radiation attack would have acheived the same result of rendering a planet unihabitable. In fact, a raidation attack probably would have been worse, since it would have destroyed almost all life on the planet, whereas a bioweapon would have only been targeted at the human population and would have left the rest of the planet mostly unharmed (and they likely could have reinhabited Earth later if a cure for the bioweapon was developed). It's rather amusing that the Emperor and Thrakhath had no problem irraditating human worlds to render the planets completely uninhabitable in Fleet Action but were initially somewhat reluctant to use bioweaopns to achieve the same result in the WC3 novel. In both cases the Kilrathi wouldn't be conducting an honourable battle, so if they already used nuclear contamination to destroy planets why would they suddenly have problems using bioweapons? Since Forstchen wrote (or at least co-authored) both Fleet Action and the WC3 novel the Kilrathi should have been reasonably consistent. I suppose it's just another example of how the background material is never completely consistent even if its from the same author.
ChrisReid
Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Devari said:
Sounds like you're making an issue out of nothing. The strontium warheads in Fleet Action were a big deal, not a "no problem" thing, and the bioweapons in Heart of the Tiger weren't much later, nor were they the same. It wouldn't be inconsistent for current world leaders to contemplate one and not the other. Bioweapons have a different psychological impact, they react differently once they're deployed and they have a different capacity to spread beyond the site of introduction.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
I don't know about the books, but the game makes it clear that the Behemoth can kill "even a planet", with no metions to "yeah, but only very tectonically unstable ones". But yeah, they may say that in the book. I read it only once a few years ago.LOAF said:
So Tolwyn was a victim of his own success... Hadn't he proved how effective the escort carriers and their little combat groups were, he would get more resources.ChrisReid said:
Well, it wouldn't be wise to assign too many carriers anyway, for the reasons mentioned here.
The Fun Gun
The behemoth has a big gun. I think I was actually a well-conceived idea since it represents at least one Confed attempt at a major first strike. From the beginning of the war on confed showed itselof to be reluctant at best when it comes to a major offensive...as if they were afraid to open the door to more aggresive Kilrathi pursuits, I.e. they would be raising the stakes to total annhilation and so forth...but appareently they did not all hold that attitude if they were working on the behemoth back in the 2630's...Had they truly pursued the endeavor fully though, it probably would have succeeded if only they had finished the problem sooner. It would have been less vulnerable to unforeseeable circumstances, such as the Hobbes' situation which resulted in the Behemoth's destructive. There were undoubtebly politcal naysaying which hindered the project development (people that said "destroying Kilrah is bad...blah..blah..blah...even though they would kill us all, lets not go to their level") since the Confed senate appears to operate with the efficiency of our own United Nations. If they had finished quickly and deployed it with extreme prejudice, I have no doubt that Blair would have succesfully defended it for one Kilrathi homeworld to the next until they unconditionally surrendered. But the would not have made as good as a story. I would have just used it on the Republican convention of 2008. It sure would be fun to whack somebody with a gun that big....
The behemoth has a big gun. I think I was actually a well-conceived idea since it represents at least one Confed attempt at a major first strike. From the beginning of the war on confed showed itselof to be reluctant at best when it comes to a major offensive...as if they were afraid to open the door to more aggresive Kilrathi pursuits, I.e. they would be raising the stakes to total annhilation and so forth...but appareently they did not all hold that attitude if they were working on the behemoth back in the 2630's...Had they truly pursued the endeavor fully though, it probably would have succeeded if only they had finished the problem sooner. It would have been less vulnerable to unforeseeable circumstances, such as the Hobbes' situation which resulted in the Behemoth's destructive. There were undoubtebly politcal naysaying which hindered the project development (people that said "destroying Kilrah is bad...blah..blah..blah...even though they would kill us all, lets not go to their level") since the Confed senate appears to operate with the efficiency of our own United Nations. If they had finished quickly and deployed it with extreme prejudice, I have no doubt that Blair would have succesfully defended it for one Kilrathi homeworld to the next until they unconditionally surrendered. But the would not have made as good as a story. I would have just used it on the Republican convention of 2008. It sure would be fun to whack somebody with a gun that big....