Question about ship design

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Bloodspray said:
I see where this is going. :rolleyes:

Look, it's not a case of me disagreeing and assuming that things are only the way I want them to be.

There's more to what I remember from that guide than what you pointed out, but, that is part of it. Ok, so it included some of what happened in the game, and? Like fanfiction doesn't? Let's be real here.

Again, the stamp of approval doesn't mean much. Unless you know the context under which it got that stamp (the whos hows and whys of it).

Lucas has gone on record before as saying that anything that was in a novel was part of the SW timeline. It's no surprise to see him draw on that. However, Paramount hasn't taken that stance in all cases. The Lost Years and The Prime Directive were excellent novels, they are officially licensed, yet they are not part of the "actual" Trek universe timeline, although they do use classic trek characters and events that had happened in the series and movies. (much like the references made by the guide that you mentioned)

That's why there's an Extended Universe, yes, but even then there are events like Splinter of the Mind's Eye which do not easily fall into classification. He's also managed to completely reverse some things in the transition between the 'classic' SW (Ep IV-VI' and the 'new' SW (Eps I-III) in ways which have had quite a few fans howling for blood.

However, your argument here has several downfalls - one being that Origin has incorporated what's gone in most of these sources you've decried (Academy, novels, sourcebooks) as canon sources later on, or else they've been used to describe what happens when the games aren't taking place (Freedom Flight, False Colors). The Kilrathi Saga manual itself has a page from Blair's Academy yearbook which includes both Larry Dibbles vowing to eat a whole flightsuit, minus the buttons, and Maniac's own signature in it... indicating that both of them knew Blair at that point, though Dibbles was assigned to the Claw before Blair was, for his first actual non-Academy cruise.

I've just reread the whole bloody guide here, and I'm having problems with what you're considering non-canon. Do you mean the interviews, or the way they assume that the end of WCII is the end of the War? That's never stated there, though it does state that LaFong was around for the end of the war, and since has retired. As to whether or not this IS Blair under a psuedonym, or something else entirely is going on, is not explained.

Paramount has declared the novels are non-canon - there's no conflict there, since every ST book has to be approved and go through the vetting process. However, Origin has used the novels and everything else as a canon source. This includes Academy, as tied in through the Confederation Handbook, and other events (Blair and Maniac knowing one another) which have been confirmed through game documentation.


Bloodspray said:
Why sit and wait? Why not just prime them to detonate on impact and let fly? Because, IIRC, they had to attune to the shield frequency or some crap like that and supposedly slipped through. They (the sheilds) were just too bleedin' strong for anything short of cap ship weapons to damage. Also, IIRC, in WC2 fighter guns weren't doing any good against large targets (almost done SM2 yet again, so I'll get refreshed in just a bit, has been years since I last ran through it all).

As for WC3 fighter guns doing damage - the arms race. It's always easier to make a better gun than it is to make a better armor (shield, whatever).

You mention game play reasons for not including torps in WC1. Which is fine. But, from a fiction standpoint it doesn't make sense. No fighter wing commander will jeapordize his pilots, carrier, and mission (not to mention career) by sending a heavy fighter to kill a capship when he has fighter-bombers equipped with torpedos. He'd send a mixed flight and make sure the job got done as quickly and easily and safely as possible.

Actually, it does make -some- sense, if we assume that, at least for the moment, bomber squadrons were transferred off the ship for the first game. I recall that, for most of the first (WC1) game, we were operating behind enemy lines or without fleet support, only occasionally encountering Terran Confederation craft to refill our stocks, or to save them from Kilrathi. In this case, including torpedo stocks would make little sense, as we -can- hurt them severely with regular missiles and guns (already able to penetrate current phase-shielding), but the torpedoes are large and take up space better used for other general-purpose munitions. In SM1 especially, we got so low on supplies that the Rapiers had to be taken out of action for some serious maintenance, resulting in our launching with Scims and Hornets for missions that the Rapier would've done better with. Only in SM2 did we really operate with any support, that being the TCS Austin, and only then for half the game.

There's a reason I stated it was more cost-effective, and survivable, to fly with regular missiles than torps - they take time to bypass the phase shields, which is already unnecessary with current-generation missiles and targeting computers. You've done nothing to refute my statement about WC1 here. WC2, with its improved shielding, DID require the larger and heavier torpedoes, which included the bombers to deliver them. The Epee, which could carry -one- torpedo, was capable of it... as was the Strakha, but the latter did two torps at once. Given a mission where I had the option to fly with a regular missile load... or I could fly with just a few missiles and one torpedo, I know which I'd rather do, given the damage capability of WC1/2 weapons against WC1-style shielding.

And we're STILL able to use guns against ships in WC3-WCP... it's just that shields and armor have improved enough to make anything but a high-powered gun less useful in most cases than a torp. Which is why we still use them in WCP, even with Plasma Cannons and similar technology being available.

But in WC1, the situation was far, far different - at that stage of the war, almost thirty years in, shield and gun technology were pretty much on the same level, with the balance tilted ever-so-slightly in favor of the gun. Torps were unnecessary, and a liability on a Strike Carrier working far behind the lines. Academy, IIRC, at least let us have some fleet support. They also yanked Tolwyn off the ship before WC1 began, but his presence in Academy explained why Blair and Tolwyn clashed in WC3: the whole 'taking command of the ship away from Captain Thorn' bit in the novel was telling, and an official source.
 
Bloodspray said:
Some of "my" official sources. Nice. Seems some of you guys think alike. lol
Wow, that was great. Nevermind responding to the other points that I made (I think there may be a reason for that), you'll pick the one that seems to 'oppress' you the most :(.
Yeah, people around here try to cobble together every source we can find. People have different reasons for doing this. I enjoy it because its more challanging to put something together than it is to tear it apart. Putting together a full WCU from the little pieces every source gives is a fun process, giving us a full, rich, changing universe instead of a sterile "every single source is a universe of its own" type of situation. Everyones entitled to their own opinion on things, you just don't have to share it with the world and yell at the top of your lungs "I'm different, Look at me look at me, I'm bucking the system (no matter what system it is, I'm bucking it)!".
You have problems with the WC universe as its been slowly peiced together since the early 90's by a few of those here, post your comments. People will do their best to give you their explainations for the inconsistancies. If this thread is a harbinger of any sort though, the explainations will be wasted time and effort.

C-ya
 
Why sit and wait? Why not just prime them to detonate on impact and let fly? Because, IIRC, they had to attune to the shield frequency or some crap like that and supposedly slipped through. They (the sheilds) were just too bleedin' strong for anything short of cap ship weapons to damage. Also, IIRC, in WC2 fighter guns weren't doing any good against large targets (almost done SM2 yet again, so I'll get refreshed in just a bit, has been years since I last ran through it all).

It's not necessarily that WC2's shields are too strong - it's that they recharge too quickly... so the torpedoes skip the shields entirely and damage the hull straight out. Even if the shields *don't* recharge quickly (as in WC1), a shield-ignoring torpedo is still a valuable weapon.

(Most of the WC2 capship weapons operated on the same principle - the AntiMatter Gun and the Phase Transit Cannon skipped a ships shields and damaged only the hull. The only weapon that actually inflicted damage on the shields was, IIRC, the Mace tactical nuke.)

You mention game play reasons for not including torps in WC1. Which is fine. But, from a fiction standpoint it doesn't make sense. No fighter wing commander will jeapordize his pilots, carrier, and mission (not to mention career) by sending a heavy fighter to kill a capship when he has fighter-bombers equipped with torpedos. He'd send a mixed flight and make sure the job got done as quickly and easily and safely as possible.

Whoever mentioned gameplay reasons was wrong - torpedoes weren't in WC1 because they just plain hadn't been thought up in 1990. There are two fiction points worth making, though:

* We never engage anything larger than a cruiser - and even those are rare. Most of Wing Commander (1)'s capship engagements involve destroyers and lower.

* Halcyon's orders often support the idea that individual wings should not be engaging large capital ships. We're told things like "engage anything up to a Ralari" or to avoid cruisers entirely... (in one of the debriefing variables, Halcyon will tell you that he's sending a squadron of bombers after a missed capital ship.)

Personalities changed retroactively, nationalities changed entirely,

Heck, that happened in just the course of porting WC1 to the SNES... for some reason, Nintendo objected to Knight being from South Africa.

and even military intelligence (Blair ran in to Prince Thrakhath as often as co-workers do (yes, an exaggeration), and yet Halcyon present information about him as though info on him and his status are recent acquisitions in SM2).

Ehh, I'm not buying that one... here's what Halcyon says: We know that this Prince Thrakhath is the grandson of the Kilrathi emperor, and possibly their best fighter pilot. And we know that Sivar is a Kilrathi war god... that's why we used the code that codename for the dreadnought that attacked Goddard. But we don't know what this "Way of Lord Sivar" could be.

It doesn't really indicate that data on Prince Thrakhath is anything new.

Viper-

Nevermind responding to the other points that I made (I think there may be a reason for that), you'll pick the one that seems to 'oppress' you the most .

Now, now, it's been a fairly intelligent debate thus far, and everyone has been treating everyone fairly respectfully - no need to change that.
 
Viper-



Now, now, it's been a fairly intelligent debate thus far, and everyone has been treating everyone fairly respectfully - no need to change that.

heh heh. I'm not even sure what he was on about there, but, I think this is a matter of opinion. ;) I kinda got the impression that Ugly(sorry, easier to spell) and Viper had a copy of instruction manuals written by torquemada they were gettin' ready to dust off for me. lol


Bandit LOAF said:
It's not necessarily that WC2's shields are too strong - it's that they recharge too quickly... so the torpedoes skip the shields entirely and damage the hull straight out. Even if the shields *don't* recharge quickly (as in WC1), a shield-ignoring torpedo is still a valuable weapon.

(Most of the WC2 capship weapons operated on the same principle - the AntiMatter Gun and the Phase Transit Cannon skipped a ships shields and damaged only the hull. The only weapon that actually inflicted damage on the shields was, IIRC, the Mace tactical nuke.)

Hmm. I could swear it was just that they were too strong, but, as much into it as I am, you have me beat, so I'll take your word for it. ;)



Whoever mentioned gameplay reasons was wrong - torpedoes weren't in WC1 because they just plain hadn't been thought up in 1990.

Which is what causes problems with trying to insert things retroactively. Room isn't always alloted for it (like a BASIC program written using single #s).

There are two fiction points worth making, though:

* We never engage anything larger than a cruiser - and even those are rare. Most of Wing Commander (1)'s capship engagements involve destroyers and lower.

* Halcyon's orders often support the idea that individual wings should not be engaging large capital ships. We're told things like "engage anything up to a Ralari" or to avoid cruisers entirely... (in one of the debriefing variables, Halcyon will tell you that he's sending a squadron of bombers after a missed capital ship.)

Isn't the Fralthi a carrier? And the Snakeir was too, IIRC. (no weapons on them though, I liked that. lol)

I don't recall the bomber reference, but again, as above, I'll defer.

Although.... we did go up against a dreadnought (the Sivar) and a starbase.



Heck, that happened in just the course of porting WC1 to the SNES... for some reason, Nintendo objected to Knight being from South Africa.

:confused: The Japanese have something against South Africa? lol Never cared for Nintendo much once the Genesis hit the scene, and then the PSX, so I missed that bit of strangeness. Was the SNES port text only like the PC version? If so, it's something that could be considered a minor point (not that it is, just that it could be glossed over more easily) as he didn't have any hintings of accent in his dialogue like Paladin did.


Ehh, I'm not buying that one... here's what Halcyon says: We know that this Prince Thrakhath is the grandson of the Kilrathi emperor, and possibly their best fighter pilot. And we know that Sivar is a Kilrathi war god... that's why we used the code that codename for the dreadnought that attacked Goddard. But we don't know what this "Way of Lord Sivar" could be.

It doesn't really indicate that data on Prince Thrakhath is anything new.

Hmm. Matter of interpretation. The context and facial expressions mixed with the dialogue left me with the impression I mentioned. As with anything that is a matter of interpretation - as a hundred people and get a hundred answers. So I may have just gotten that one wrong.
 
The Japanese have something against South Africa? lol Never cared for Nintendo much once the Genesis hit the scene, and then the PSX, so I missed that bit of strangeness. Was the SNES port text only like the PC version? If so, it's something that could be considered a minor point (not that it is, just that it could be glossed over more easily) as he didn't have any hintings of accent in his dialogue like Paladin did.

Yup, SNES was text only (and 32 colors, like the Amiga port). The only 'full speech' versions of Wing 1 were the SegaCD release and the enhanced 'Super Wing Commander' game (3DO/Mac).

Hmm. Matter of interpretation. The context and facial expressions mixed with the dialogue left me with the impression I mentioned. As with anything that is a matter of interpretation - as a hundred people and get a hundred answers. So I may have just gotten that one wrong.

They gave up on dialogue-specific facial stuff in the addons - watch everybody closely... they just mouth the same set of syllables over and over and over. :)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Now, now, it's been a fairly intelligent debate thus far, and everyone has been treating everyone fairly respectfully - no need to change that.
I'll try to play a bit nicer :).
Bloodspray said:
. . .instruction manuals written by torquemada . . .
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" especially a random reference to it like that. :)
Bloodspray said:
Which is what causes problems with trying to insert things retroactively. Room isn't always alloted for it . . .
Not always, but its a different story when the space is left and there's nothing inserted that conflicts with the original.
Bloodspray said:
Isn't the Fralthi a carrier? And the Snakeir was too, IIRC. (no weapons on them though, I liked that. lol)
The Fralthi is a cruiser that can be used as a light carrier after conversion. It is still armed and armored like a cruiser though. We don't meet the Snakeir till SM2. Both are armed with turreted lasers/flak cannons and a few missiles. In WC1, I believe the only time we are ever ordered to destroy a Fralthi we get another flight of Rapiers to help on the strike. The only time we are ever ordered to engage a Snakier we hustling our asses out of a system overrun by Kilrathi and the Snakeir carrier group is guarding the jump point out and other flights are tasked to take out other capital ships (Halcyon tells us the following are blocking the jump out "We’ve detected a Snakeir, three Fralthi, and four Ralari on an intercept course"). Snakeir doesn't go boom, we go boom. IE a single flight of fighters is never expected to kill anything larger than a destroyer.
Bloodspray said:
Although.... we did go up against a dreadnought (the Sivar) and a starbase.
Going up against the dreadnaught was something the Claw wasn't ready for. We were the closest ship able to go after the Sivar fleet, unable to resupply. When we are finally thrown after the Sivar, Halcyon told each of us goodbye because he didn't expect us to come back. Taking on the Sivar without bombers was probably not his favorite option.
The starbase mission is a pretty good argument for the fact that we do have bombers. Here's exerpts from the briefing:
"Halcyon:. . . The Kilrathi will expect us to come in with all of our capital ships. That means they’ll be looking for us in a few hours. Tactical has determined that if we send in a handful of starfighters, we’ll be able to hit them before they’ve gathered around the base. . .
Hunter: What are we supposed to take the base out with, anyway, Colonel?
Halcyon: Your missiles. Save them for the base, because your ship’s guns will be useless against anything that big. Anyone else? All right, then. Let’s get to work. Squadron dismissed.
"
Since the Kilrathi would be expecting a strike in a few hours from a heavier attack force, Halcyon has planned to get in there fast with fighters and take out the base, instead of sending slow bombers and capital ships after it and face the brunt of the Kilrathi resistance. Hunter then asks, a little dumbfounded, what the hell they could use to take down a starbase. Again, this supports the fact that a fighter isn't expected to take out a target this big (which incidentally is less well armored and shielded than a cruiser ;) ).
Taking on big targets in a fighter isn't the status quo in WC1, its just the fact that circumstances limit you to doing so (and it doesn't hurt that you are supposedly the best pilot ever and can take out anything short of a planet . . . oh wait, nevermind :) ). Also, think back to the Starbase and Sivar missions . . . can you imagine taking on all those fighters in a slow, afterburner deficient craft whose torpedoes take 20-30 seconds to lock on?

C-ya
 
Bloodspray said:
William Gibson is probably the best example of all. Have you read the original Johnny Mnemonic? As I said, he did write the screen play and choose the director for the film. And wrote the original story in the first place. But the 2 are *very* different from one another.

Your point being? The film was originally going to be a 1 million dollar art house picture, an attempt to make a low-budget sci-fi movie with some emphasis on Gibson's drawn-out logic. Guess what? Producers began pumping money in when Keanu was attached.

The film and the short story have some things in common but much is borrowed from other Gibson novels and transposed into the film. After all, the story was, what, 14 pages on paper? That transcribes to 15 minutes on film.

The film was totally out of Gibson's hands and he had nothing to do with Robert Longo's attachment as a director in the end. Longo was just another music video director like David Fincher or McG trying to make it in film and fell straight on his ass.

Did you even bother reading Gibson's script for Alien3?
 
LeHah said:
Your point being? The film was originally going to be a 1 million dollar art house picture, an attempt to make a low-budget sci-fi movie with some emphasis on Gibson's drawn-out logic. Guess what? Producers began pumping money in when Keanu was attached.

The film and the short story have some things in common but much is borrowed from other Gibson novels and transposed into the film. After all, the story was, what, 14 pages on paper? That transcribes to 15 minutes on film.

The film was totally out of Gibson's hands and he had nothing to do with Robert Longo's attachment as a director in the end. Longo was just another music video director like David Fincher or McG trying to make it in film and fell straight on his ass.

Did you even bother reading Gibson's script for Alien3?

Woah! WTH?

You guys come on quick with the attitude around here.

"did I even bother reading". Feck off with that 'tude dude.

His script for Alien3 has nothing to do with anything. I'd take anything he would do over what that movie wound up being.

And my point about JM, since you missed it, is, the original author was directly invovled in the porting of his work from one form to another and the result was rather different from the original. Not just in lengthening, which would have had to be done, but, in overall feel and drawing on other, seperate story concepts as well.

And he *did* choose the director, in addition to writing the screenplay.
 
Viper61 said:
Going up against the dreadnaught was something the Claw wasn't ready for. We were the closest ship able to go after the Sivar fleet, unable to resupply. When we are finally thrown after the Sivar, Halcyon told each of us goodbye because he didn't expect us to come back. Taking on the Sivar without bombers was probably not his favorite option.
Indeed. It's also worth noting that, prior to destroying the Sivar, Blair took part in a strike against a supply depot, flying the retired Scimitar specifically because heavier ships weren't available. Equipment shortages were a pretty frequently-occuring theme in WC1. IIRC, many of the failed mission debriefings talked about how the mission in question might have been a success if only Confed had been able to send more than a pair of fighters to do it.
 
Bloodspray said:
Woah! WTH?

You guys come on quick with the attitude around here.

"did I even bother reading". Feck off with that 'tude dude.

We don't suffer fools gladly. Me probably less so.

Bloodspray said:
His script for Alien3 has nothing to do with anything. I'd take anything he would do over what that movie wound up being.

It has plenty to do with what we're discussing. Gibson wanted to turn the Alien into a spore based creature, if I remember correctly. Wow, way to ruin the original concept. Not to mention that Fincher's Alien3 is just a rehash of the original; nothing wrong with that. I mean, shit, even Fincher hates it now but it's not all that bad. It's just not the first two... but it's not Alien Resurrection or Predator 2.

Bloodspray said:
And my point about JM, since you missed it, is, the original author was directly invovled in the porting of his work from one form to another and the result was rather different from the original. Not just in lengthening, which would have had to be done, but, in overall feel and drawing on other, seperate story concepts as well.

I'm waiting for you to wave a banner for Gibson's "New Rose Hotel" being made into a movie. Boy was that a peice of crap.

Bloodspray said:
And he *did* choose the director, in addition to writing the screenplay.

Aside from knowing better than that, you've presented no evidence of the fact to prove this point. Gibson has absolutely no clout in Hollywood and like most writers, hates to set foot near it. On the other hand, IMDB supports my statement with fact. What do you have?
 
LeHah said:
We don't suffer fools gladly. Me probably less so.

Plenty of tolerance for assholes apparently though. Otherwise you'd have a hard time living with yourself.


It has plenty to do with what we're discussing. Gibson wanted to turn the Alien into a spore based creature, if I remember correctly. Wow, way to ruin the original concept. Not to mention that Fincher's Alien3 is just a rehash of the original; nothing wrong with that. I mean, shit, even Fincher hates it now but it's not all that bad. It's just not the first two... but it's not Alien Resurrection or Predator 2.

Mmhmm. He was brought up as a reference of an original author making changes to his own material. Your reference is irrelevant as he wasn't the original author of Alien. Nor was his script even used.



Aside from knowing better than that, you've presented no evidence of the fact to prove this point. Gibson has absolutely no clout in Hollywood and like most writers, hates to set foot near it. On the other hand, IMDB supports my statement with fact. What do you have?

Sure you do. What do I have? An interview with him and others invovled in the making of the movie. I also have an intolerance for pompous assholes. So piss off. What I *don't* have is anything to prove to you, nor do I give to shits about your approval.
 
*Sprays the thread with repellant in the hopes that Bloodspray will stop posting in this thread*

repellant.JPG
 
One of the humorous things about WC1, with the point system on completing objectives, you can literally beat the game while flying only four missions. (or something like four)

LOAF, maybe they released two different versions, I am prety sure mine only had the one, but then again, I haven't played that game since around WC3 came out on CPU.
 
I think it's WC2 that you can win with only four missions (WC1 should require at least seven).

I think WC1 SegaCD has the addon, but it's built into the main game - there's no option to start with SM1 or 2. You play through WC1, and then you start SM1 (and then 2).
 
Are you sure it was WC2, it had critical missions, you could fail alot of missions, but as long as you completed the critical mission you continued on the winning path.
In WC1, each objective had a point value (ie: fighters worth 1 point, capital ships 4, the ace of the fight 5, each escorted ship 5). Which systems that require completed missions is on the tip of my brain, I know that last ending sytems don't count since they are dead ends. All I need is the book that has that stuff in my uncles garage. damn moving, arrrggghh!!!!! (shakes fist at heavens)
 
Ah, you're confusing "medal points" and "victory points". You tally up "victory points" in Wing 1 for your mission objectives - hit Nav 1, land safely, etc. You get "medal points" for killing ships, keeping your wingman safe, etc. The progress of the game is determined by the victory points... and whether or not you recieve a medal in an individual mission is determined by medal points. Individual kills and such don't affect victory points.
 
Wow, thanks for explaining that. I haven't played the original in a lifetime and thought that they were one in the same.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I think WC1 SegaCD has the addon, but it's built into the main game - there's no option to start with SM1 or 2. You play through WC1, and then you start SM1 (and then 2).
Do you get to keep your medal of honor if you earn it in WC1?

C-ya
 
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