Question about ship design

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And Jalthis were seen in the atmosphere in Freedom Flight.

As far as atmospheric flight is concerned, one serious thing you guys are missing is the ability of the airframe to resist flutter. My senior design project to get my bachelors involved testing the flutter speeds of an aircraft that currently holds several world records in endurance turboprop racing.

To sum it up - airplane goes past maximum flutter speed, vibrations start in airframe, airframe breaks apart, people die.
 
Quick thought, couldn't shields be shaped in a manner that makes a design more aerodynamic(or even just be shaped in that matter altogether?)

And then on second observation, the sudden shift in design really had a lot to do with hardware limitations.

They went from prerendered sprites to a full fledged 3D engine, ships like sabres, morningstars and epees would have been a bit difficult to work with under the hardware restrictions of the time.(God knows the Concordia model we did for the XWATC wound up having something like 4790 polys...Average X-wing circa '92ish was something like 40someodd.)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
We also see Dralthi I/II's in atmospheric combat frequently on Wing Commander Academy.

True, but WCA can't be more than just 13 good stories loosly based on WC. The underlying story of the series makes little sense and Maniac's personality doesn't jibe, nor does the WC1 introduction, and there are craft from as late as WC3 in there. It even says "based on". Seems that they just grabbed a bunch of elements they (the series producers) liked and mixed them all up and went with it.
 
Nob Akimoto said:
Quick thought, couldn't shields be shaped in a manner that makes a design more aerodynamic(or even just be shaped in that matter altogether?)

And then on second observation, the sudden shift in design really had a lot to do with hardware limitations.

They went from prerendered sprites to a full fledged 3D engine, ships like sabres, morningstars and epees would have been a bit difficult to work with under the hardware restrictions of the time.(God knows the Concordia model we did for the XWATC wound up having something like 4790 polys...Average X-wing circa '92ish was something like 40someodd.)

Yeah, I know. There is the base concept (WWII DFs in space) and the initial hardware limitations, everything else was extrapolated from there. But, that doesn't mean that things can't be justified in the story. ;)
 
Bloodspray said:
True, but WCA can't be more than just 13 good stories loosly based on WC. The underlying story of the series makes little sense and Maniac's personality doesn't jibe, nor does the WC1 introduction, and there are craft from as late as WC3 in there. It even says "based on". Seems that they just grabbed a bunch of elements they (the series producers) liked and mixed them all up and went with it.
Hooray for searching old threads and not bothering with long winded replies!

Heres one that goes into the fighters a bit more.

C-ya
 
It even says "based on".

As continuity arguments go, this one has got to win some sort of a prize - because it says it's based on Wing Commander, it must not be? :)

Seems that they just grabbed a bunch of elements they (the series producers) liked and mixed them all up and went with it.

I guess it's worth pointing out that the guy credited for Academy (Adam Foshko) was in charge of the game franchise at that time (late '96).
 
Bloodspray said:
True, but WCA can't be more than just 13 good stories loosly based on WC. The underlying story of the series makes little sense and Maniac's personality doesn't jibe, nor does the WC1 introduction, and there are craft from as late as WC3 in there. It even says "based on". Seems that they just grabbed a bunch of elements they (the series producers) liked and mixed them all up and went with it.

We also see them flying Dralthi I's in atmosphere in Wing Commander 1 in the Port Hedland success screen, so the cartoon's showing similar behavior from Dralthi I's and IIs is not unusual. Maybe you should try the 'search' feature on the forums? :D
 
Eh, I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to search through ten thousand rambling, largely completely incoherent CZ threads before they state their opinion on something. :)

Anyway, look at Academy's ships from the other perspective: of *all* the WC products, it maintains the most consistency with ship designs. Each new WC game introduces a host of new ship designs (not a criticism - it's a requirement for selling games)... Academy is the *only* thing that goes back and shows Scimitars and what-not in the proper WC-historical context. Of all the ret-con mid-fifties stories, WCA is the only one that doesn't redesign all the ships for the sake of design.
 
Well, I'm not sure if the aerodynamics are irrelevant on WC. The Vindicator, the only pilotable atmospheric-capable BW ship on WC4, is the most "aerodynamic" one of them all. The Bahsee is a trident and the Avenger is a brick.

However, there's nothing special about the scimitar and many other WC ships that are atmospheric-capable.
 
Haesslich said:
We also see them flying Dralthi I's in atmosphere in Wing Commander 1 in the Port Hedland success screen, so the cartoon's showing similar behavior from Dralthi I's and IIs is not unusual. Maybe you should try the 'search' feature on the forums? :D

What would I be searching for? And why?

Also, it's borderline, but, I'd say it qualifies as an animated series, not a cartoon. ;)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
As continuity arguments go, this one has got to win some sort of a prize - because it says it's based on Wing Commander, it must not be? :)

Must not be what?

I was just pointing out that, regardless of reason, 2 things are present, a lack of logic for the selection of craft and story components, and a disclaimer stating that it's not WC, but merely based on it.


I guess it's worth pointing out that the guy credited for Academy (Adam Foshko) was in charge of the game franchise at that time (late '96).

Ok......and?

Nothing says that he didn't do as I suggested, take the best things from the entire timeline, and made something new that would be most appealing to the broadest audience, comprising both existing fans and new comers.

Look at QuakeWarrior....err I mean "MechWarrior 4". That's not MechWarrior. It's a travesty. But, it was co-developed by FASA.

All in all, it's pretty common marketing procedure when porting something from one "platform" to another.

(Johnny Mnemonic's screenplay was written by Gibson himself and he even chose th director. The end result was good, but, it wasn't the original Johnny Mnemonic. The examples are probably endless ;) )
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Anyway, look at Academy's ships from the other perspective: of *all* the WC products, it maintains the most consistency with ship designs. Each new WC game introduces a host of new ship designs (not a criticism - it's a requirement for selling games)... Academy is the *only* thing that goes back and shows Scimitars and what-not in the proper WC-historical context. Of all the ret-con mid-fifties stories, WCA is the only one that doesn't redesign all the ships for the sake of design.

I don't follow you on "ret-con mid-fifties". Sorry. Still a n00b. :)


It's accepted that rate of technological advance is accelerating. There is no predicted end to this. For a war taking decades and then some, it's not surprising to see new ships each time (aside from the realities of selling more games).

We went from Wildcats to Hellcats to Corsairs to Bearcats inside of 4 years. So it's not that much of a stretch to see new ships in each WC game. Especially from 1 to 2 with as much time as there was in between.
 
I have never seen an acadamy episode. My best friend has and makes fun of it ruthlessly, he even goes as far as to put his fingers on the side of his mouth to simulate a animated mouth or a still frame of the kilrathi and goes "Oh Nooo!" when the cats get fried.

LOAF is right, you have to make new ships to keep new gamers interested and even older ones who are not Hard Core. The might have used the WC3 ships so people who played 3-4 but not the original 2, so they have something to relate to.

Shows are not made for a select few, they are made for the masses.

Man I wish I had a faster Internet connection so I could get those Acadamy episodes lol.
 
However, there's nothing special about the scimitar and many other WC ships that are atmospheric-capable.

Though it's worth pointing out that Halcyon mentions that you need to fit a ship with special weapons if it's going to be fighting in an atmosphere - otherwise it'll explode.

Ok......and?

Nothing says that he didn't do as I suggested, take the best things from the entire timeline, and made something new that would be most appealing to the broadest audience, comprising both existing fans and new comers.

Eh, I just thought it was odd that you were attributing something to the producer when it was probably the point in WC development history where they had a single guy keeping everything developed together.

I don't follow you on "ret-con mid-fifties". Sorry. Still a n00b.

It's when they go back and set a story around WC1 - the movie, SWC and Academy are the prime offenders... and of the three, Academy is easily the best about ship designs. (G)

It's accepted that rate of technological advance is accelerating. There is no predicted end to this. For a war taking decades and then some, it's not surprising to see new ships each time (aside from the realities of selling more games).

We went from Wildcats to Hellcats to Corsairs to Bearcats inside of 4 years. So it's not that much of a stretch to see new ships in each WC game. Especially from 1 to 2 with as much time as there was in between.

On the other hand, two of those fighters stuck around for ten years to serve in Korea (three, if you count the use of surplus Wildcats as unmanned bombs.)

It's also worth pointing out that WCA doesn't violate any established continuity - neither of the WC3 ships with specific service histories show up in the game. (The Excalibur and Thunderbolt VII).
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Though it's worth pointing out that Halcyon mentions that you need to fit a ship with special weapons if it's going to be fighting in an atmosphere - otherwise it'll explode.

I thought he had said something like "one near miss with a missle and the overpressure from the explosion will take you out". Unless I'm thinking about a different instance.


Eh, I just thought it was odd that you were attributing something to the producer when it was probably the point in WC development history where they had a single guy keeping everything developed together.

Well, like I said, even situations where the "official" person or people are directly involved in a new telling of a given story, either on a different platform (from PC or novel to TV or movie), or sometimes even just with a new developer, the result is so drasticly different as to be merely based on the original. William Gibson is probably the best example of all. Have you read the original Johnny Mnemonic? As I said, he did write the screen play and choose the director for the film. And wrote the original story in the first place. But the 2 are *very* different from one another.

For that matter, look at what Roberts did in the movie. I don't even know where to begin, so I probably won't. It was about as much Wing Commander as Starship Troopers was Starship Troopers (which is to say, very little).


On the other hand, two of those fighters stuck around for ten years to serve in Korea (three, if you count the use of surplus Wildcats as unmanned bombs.)

Hellcats were long retired and either put out to pasture or used as target drones. Bearcats went into service with other nations (we didn't have much use for a prop driven interceptor/air superiority fighter - that's what the F-86 was for). Even the P-47 was retired, much to the chagrin of F-51 pilots forced to move mud, some even said they'd buy their own Jug if only they had the money. The P-51 (F-51) and F4U remained in service in Korea. The F4U from Korea was greatly improved over it's WWII counterpart, but, each was relegated to mud moving.

But, we had nothing better for mud moving, so it made sense to continue to use the existing stock of equipment we had. Also, the rate of advance would (and does) slow down between wars. Even with that, we still went from dabbling in jet turbines with the P-80, to a committed transition with the F-86.

So I still see it perfectly reasonable to say that each game represents the changing technology (to give the marketing a game based explanation).


It's also worth pointing out that WCA doesn't violate any established continuity - neither of the WC3 ships with specific service histories show up in the game. (The Excalibur and Thunderbolt VII).

I'm not so sure. I know you said that because the official guide to 1 & 2 show Blair and Maniac meeting in the academy it's canon, but, that guide had some odd stuff going on that I can't remember specificly enough to recite at the moment. Has Origin or Roberts said that the storyline aspects of that guide is official? Just because Origin sanctioned the book itself doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official. (all it takes is for someone with the authority to look at it, decide it represents the product well (which could be based on any imaginable criteria) and give it the stamp of approval.)

That aside though, how'd the Tigers Claw go from an unimportant ship in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cadets, to an important ship in the war effort, on the forefront of Confed strategy, even being selected for "secret missions" and diplomatic detail? Why was a commodore commading the ship and it's fighter compliment? That's the Wing Commanders (cough cough lol) job. Why were Broadswords and torps present in WCA when they weren't in WC1, even though many of the missions were to take out capital ships and starbases (which torpedos were not only built for, were also explained as shield tech got to the point where fighters guns were useless and torps were the only way to bring the large targets down)?
 
Bloodspray said:
I'm not so sure. I know you said that because the official guide to 1 & 2 show Blair and Maniac meeting in the academy it's canon, but, that guide had some odd stuff going on that I can't remember specificly enough to recite at the moment. Has Origin or Roberts said that the storyline aspects of that guide is official? Just because Origin sanctioned the book itself doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official. (all it takes is for someone with the authority to look at it, decide it represents the product well (which could be based on any imaginable criteria) and give it the stamp of approval.)

That aside though, how'd the Tigers Claw go from an unimportant ship in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cadets, to an important ship in the war effort, on the forefront of Confed strategy, even being selected for "secret missions" and diplomatic detail? Why was a commodore commading the ship and it's fighter compliment? That's the Wing Commanders (cough cough lol) job. Why were Broadswords and torps present in WCA when they weren't in WC1, even though many of the missions were to take out capital ships and starbases (which torpedos were not only built for, were also explained as shield tech got to the point where fighters guns were useless and torps were the only way to bring the large targets down)?

The 'oddness' you're probably talking about is the name given for the pilot, Carl 'Jester' LaFong, who wrote like he was Blair. The fiction was official, since they did write about Maniac's breakdown in SM1, describing the events which led up to it (he blew up a medical transport by accident), and they describe the results of the missions... including the loss of the Claw, and the whole 'traitor' period that followed. Just because -you- disagree with a source does not make it 'unofficial' despite its approved-by-Origin stamp: George Lucas has, unfortunately, proven that with his Episode I-II revisions of SW canon. Ditto 'Enterprise' with Star Trek canon (the first meeting with the Klingons, where their homeworld is, Romulans with tri-cobalt weapory years before DS9 and cloaks long before TOS).

Torpedoes first appeared in Action Stations, and since then they have been employed when advances in shield tech became too much for our guns to handle, or when they really needed to take targets out quickly - we've seen them at the start of WC2, which took place in 2657 or thereabouts; the Tiger's Claw did NOT suddenly blow up in 2667, when you start flying again. You'll notice that the transition from WC2 to WC3 shows that we CAN hurt ships with fighter-based guns again, but torpedoes are a hell of a lot faster, and that with WC4's Fission Cannon, you can literally knock down shields on lighter capships and hurt the target badly. WCP's Plasma Cannon also does similar damage to capships, because of the overwhelming amount of damage it does (600) per shot, which punches through the shields to actually hurt an area. In WC1, our weapons computers had been modified enough to allow us to punch through the shields, the way WC3 and WC4 had us doing - though again, torps did things more quickly there.

Besides, with a few decent full guns and missile salvos, you could polish off even hardened targets in that game. Torps would've made missions far too easy to pull - or just gotten you killed, given how long you'd have to sit there or fly in a straight line.
 
Well, like I said, even situations where the "official" person or people are directly involved in a new telling of a given story, either on a different platform (from PC or novel to TV or movie), or sometimes even just with a new developer, the result is so drasticly different as to be merely based on the original. William Gibson is probably the best example of all. Have you read the original Johnny Mnemonic? As I said, he did write the screen play and choose the director for the film. And wrote the original story in the first place. But the 2 are *very* different from one another.

I'm sorry - not familiar with either the film or the book of Johnny Mnemonic.

I'm not really explaining myself very well, re: Wing Commander - 1996 was a really neat year for Wing Commander specifically because there was such a big push for continuity. There was going to be an elaborate Privateer TV series that would begin and end with tie-ins to Privateer 2 (Chris Roberts' project, not The Darkening) and Privateer 3... there was going to be an Academy style 'animated' game to tie it to WC1... they even talked about a Darkening/Blair crossover of some sort. The market fell through and most of it never happened - but they were trying really hard to create a continuous Wing Commander universe after Wing Four.

For that matter, look at what Roberts did in the movie. I don't even know where to begin, so I probably won't. It was about as much Wing Commander as Starship Troopers was Starship Troopers (which is to say, very little).

Well - the movie is another discussion entirely... one I'm certainly willing to have, but you can probably find all the relevant points in old threads (G)

Hellcats were long retired and either put out to pasture or used as target drones. Bearcats went into service with other nations (we didn't have much use for a prop driven interceptor/air superiority fighter - that's what the F-86 was for). Even the P-47 was retired, much to the chagrin of F-51 pilots forced to move mud, some even said they'd buy their own Jug if only they had the money. The P-51 (F-51) and F4U remained in service in Korea. The F4U from Korea was greatly improved over it's WWII counterpart, but, each was relegated to mud moving.

But, we had nothing better for mud moving, so it made sense to continue to use the existing stock of equipment we had. Also, the rate of advance would (and does) slow down between wars. Even with that, we still went from dabbling in jet turbines with the P-80, to a committed transition with the F-86.

So I still see it perfectly reasonable to say that each game represents the changing technology (to give the marketing a game based explanation).

I was under the impression that the reconnaissance variant of the Bearcat (F8F-2P?) saw use early on in Korea. I may well be wrong - I haven't really looked into such things in several years, so any knowledge I have is rather rusty.

Anyway, to discuss Wing Commander:

Wing Commander II's Special Operations disks end in mid-2667, and at that time we see a new group of fighters coming online: SuperFerrets, Crossbows and Morningstars. We get a mid-2668 'state of the fleet' update through the Wing Commander Academy (game) manual - the WC2 ships (Ferret/Epee/Rapier II/Sabre/Broadsword) are still in service, Morningstars are Confed's primary capship killer and Crossbows are on the front lines. Confed is getting ready to put the new Wraith-class into service as the top of the line space superiority fighter. Fleet Action brings us to the end of 2668 and supports all of this - the WC2 fighters are still in service, albeit with service life extending upgrades (Sabre-D kits and an unspecified upgrade to the Broadsword-class). WC1's Hornets and Raptors even show up as parts of Confed's reserve squadrons. Wing Commander Armada, which takes place around the same time, now puts the Wraith in frontline service. (It also introduces several other new fighters - though the Banshee and the Phantom are said to be evolutions of WC1's Raptor and Scimitar (respectively)).

Then it gets weird, though - Wing Commander III is about three months after Armada and it has an almost entirely new set of fighters (the exception is the Arrow, which shows up in Armada). Did Confed build an entirely new group of fighters? Sure, that's quite possible - wouldn't be the first time. But I don't see these amazing new top of the line fighters going straight to a reserve light carrier. It's always seemed more likely to me that FW-36's "new" ships in WC3 are older reserve craft... going along with the older carrier and her older escorts.

To discuss the ships specifically. The Excalibur, of course, is new - that's a necessary part of the background fiction of Wing Commander III. It doesn't really affect the possibility that we're flying reserve spacecraft, though, as there's no Excalibur squadron onboard the Victory... we recieve the survivors from the TCS Eagle as a plot device later in the story. The Thunderbolt is fairly new - we're told in the Authorized Combat Guide to Wing Commander III that it entered service in mid-2668, though that it isn't particularly popular. The Thunderbolt doesn't show up in Academy, so there's no need to look into it much further. The three ships that we actually see on Academy:

The Arrow (V) should be a non-issue - Armada gives a 2654 service-entry date for the fighter... and, at one point, Armada even uses it in the same manner as Academy - as a fast personell courier.

The Hellcat V isn't *actually* in Academy... we see it simulated at the Academy, in the same manner that the Wraith prototype is simulated in the WCA game before its ever actually built. Since the Hellcat has been established as the direct replacement for the Rapier II, this seems reasonable given your idea that Confed's fighter replacement mirrors that of the US Navy in World War II. The Rapier II is in service now (2654) and pilots are already being trained on its replacement (There's also a nice, albeit unofficial, theory that the Hellcats seen in Wing Commander Academy are in fact Wildcats - the predecessor seen early in the war in 'Action Stations'. Similar designs for the two ships would be a fun tie in to Wing Commander's "WW2 in space" theme.)

The Longbow is the third. I don't think there's much to talk about here - we see it for approximately three frames, and we get no idea of armament or specifications. Given that the Morningstar and the Crossbow have just entered service mid/late 2667, it seems possible to me that the Longbow is an older design (the Longbow's quick retirement after the war would seem to support this - the Longbow and the Arrow were the first of Confed's fighter classes to leave the inventory in the post-war era).

Anyway, that's my logic for fighter development and such.

I'm not so sure. I know you said that because the official guide to 1 & 2 show Blair and Maniac meeting in the academy it's canon, but, that guide had some odd stuff going on that I can't remember specificly enough to recite at the moment. Has Origin or Roberts said that the storyline aspects of that guide is official? Just because Origin sanctioned the book itself doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official. (all it takes is for someone with the authority to look at it, decide it represents the product well (which could be based on any imaginable criteria) and give it the stamp of approval.)

Like most of the official guides (exception being the WC3 Authorized Guide), the WC1/2 guide was actually done in-house. Mike Harrison was an Origin staff writer, who worked on most of their early nineties titles. (Origin's Wing Commander bible actually includes a significant (~60%) of the guides 'story' as its WC1/2 background for new writers).

That aside though, how'd the Tigers Claw go from an unimportant ship in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cadets, to an important ship in the war effort, on the forefront of Confed strategy, even being selected for "secret missions" and diplomatic detail?

I would imagine that the success of the Dolos operation at the end of the series earned the 'Claw its... claws.

Why was a commodore commading the ship and it's fighter compliment? That's the Wing Commanders (cough cough lol) job.

Captain and Wing Commander are distinct - even in the original Wing Commander, Captain Thorn commanded the 'Claw while Halcyon commanded the wing. My understanding of Academy was that the ship had a regular complement of fighters which would have a regular Wing Commander... and that Tolwyn was simply teaching the command school (and commanding the ship).

Why were Broadswords and torps present in WCA when they weren't in WC1, even though many of the missions were to take out capital ships and starbases (which torpedos were not only built for, were also explained as shield tech got to the point where fighters guns were useless and torps were the only way to bring the large targets down)?

The first torpedoes appear in Action Stations, at the very beginning of the war. Just looking at the games, though, you can see that the requirement for torpedoes is cyclical:

Wing Commander (1) - Guns are stronger than shields. You can destroy a capital ship with any sort of fighter-based weapons.
Wing Commander II - Shields have improved - to destroy a capital ship, torpedoes are necessary.
Wing Commander III - Guns have improved - to destroy a capital ship, you can use guns and missiles (or torpedoes, which are still in the inventory).
Wing Commander IV - Same tech level as Wing Commander IV... until the end, when ships like Axius and the Vesuvius appear whose shields cannot be damaged with guns.
Wing Commander Prophecy - Shields are better than guns - you need torpedoes to destroy enemy ships... until the end of the game, when new guns (like the Plasma weapon) are good enough to punch through enemy shields on their own.

Just take it backwards a bit - and it fits with all of the novels and Academy.
 
Haesslich said:
The 'oddness' you're probably talking about is the name given for the pilot, Carl 'Jester' LaFong, who wrote like he was Blair. The fiction was official, since they did write about Maniac's breakdown in SM1, describing the events which led up to it (he blew up a medical transport by accident), and they describe the results of the missions... including the loss of the Claw, and the whole 'traitor' period that followed. Just because -you- disagree with a source does not make it 'unofficial' despite its approved-by-Origin stamp: George Lucas has, unfortunately, proven that with his Episode I-II revisions of SW canon. Ditto 'Enterprise' with Star Trek canon (the first meeting with the Klingons, where their homeworld is, Romulans with tri-cobalt weapory years before DS9 and cloaks long before TOS).

I see where this is going. :rolleyes:

Look, it's not a case of me disagreeing and assuming that things are only the way I want them to be.

There's more to what I remember from that guide than what you pointed out, but, that is part of it. Ok, so it included some of what happened in the game, and? Like fanfiction doesn't? Let's be real here.

Again, the stamp of approval doesn't mean much. Unless you know the context under which it got that stamp (the whos hows and whys of it).

Lucas has gone on record before as saying that anything that was in a novel was part of the SW timeline. It's no surprise to see him draw on that. However, Paramount hasn't taken that stance in all cases. The Lost Years and The Prime Directive were excellent novels, they are officially licensed, yet they are not part of the "actual" Trek universe timeline, although they do use classic trek characters and events that had happened in the series and movies. (much like the references made by the guide that you mentioned)


Torpedoes first appeared in Action Stations, and since then they have been employed when advances in shield tech became too much for our guns to handle, or when they really needed to take targets out quickly - we've seen them at the start of WC2, which took place in 2657 or thereabouts; the Tiger's Claw did NOT suddenly blow up in 2667, when you start flying again. You'll notice that the transition from WC2 to WC3 shows that we CAN hurt ships with fighter-based guns again, but torpedoes are a hell of a lot faster, and that with WC4's Fission Cannon, you can literally knock down shields on lighter capships and hurt the target badly. WCP's Plasma Cannon also does similar damage to capships, because of the overwhelming amount of damage it does (600) per shot, which punches through the shields to actually hurt an area. In WC1, our weapons computers had been modified enough to allow us to punch through the shields, the way WC3 and WC4 had us doing - though again, torps did things more quickly there.

Besides, with a few decent full guns and missile salvos, you could polish off even hardened targets in that game. Torps would've made missions far too easy to pull - or just gotten you killed, given how long you'd have to sit there or fly in a straight line.

Why sit and wait? Why not just prime them to detonate on impact and let fly? Because, IIRC, they had to attune to the shield frequency or some crap like that and supposedly slipped through. They (the sheilds) were just too bleedin' strong for anything short of cap ship weapons to damage. Also, IIRC, in WC2 fighter guns weren't doing any good against large targets (almost done SM2 yet again, so I'll get refreshed in just a bit, has been years since I last ran through it all).

As for WC3 fighter guns doing damage - the arms race. It's always easier to make a better gun than it is to make a better armor (shield, whatever).

You mention game play reasons for not including torps in WC1. Which is fine. But, from a fiction standpoint it doesn't make sense. No fighter wing commander will jeapordize his pilots, carrier, and mission (not to mention career) by sending a heavy fighter to kill a capship when he has fighter-bombers equipped with torpedos. He'd send a mixed flight and make sure the job got done as quickly and easily and safely as possible.
 
Bloodspray said:
I'm not so sure. I know you said that because the official guide to 1 & 2 show Blair and Maniac meeting in the academy it's canon, but, that guide had some odd stuff going on that I can't remember specificly enough to recite at the moment. Has Origin or Roberts said that the storyline aspects of that guide is official? Just because Origin sanctioned the book itself doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official. (all it takes is for someone with the authority to look at it, decide it represents the product well (which could be based on any imaginable criteria) and give it the stamp of approval.)
The past few posts you've made about this subject have got to be the strangest argument against something I've ever seen here. A piece of history is listed in a document/game/book that is sanctioned by the creating company of the franchise, but you still think that this "doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official"? Where are we supposed to draw history from to make it official? Does everyone need to email Roberts everytime they have a question because we can't trust anything that Origin put out (including the games) to be canon? :( Thats got to be the worst argument I've seen here in a while.
Theres a thread somewhere around here that lists all the sources that say Blair and Maniac were at the academy togther, a few of which are your "official canon sources" of the games and their respective manuals.

Bloodspray said:
That aside though, how'd the Tigers Claw go from an unimportant ship in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cadets, to an important ship in the war effort, on the forefront of Confed strategy, even being selected for "secret missions" and diplomatic detail? Why was a commodore commading the ship and it's fighter compliment? That's the Wing Commanders (cough cough lol) job. Why were Broadswords and torps present in WCA when they weren't in WC1, even though many of the missions were to take out capital ships and starbases (which torpedos were not only built for, were also explained as shield tech got to the point where fighters guns were useless and torps were the only way to bring the large targets down)?
Alright, taking each question in turn, most of these are my opinions on the situation. Take them as you will. First question, "important to unimportant". Well we don't know the specifics of Confeds orders on a day to day basis (mission can't be "destroy a whole carrier group of Kilrathi Ships" everyday), at the end of the series the Tiger's Claw was tasked to take out a Dreadnaught, by itself, to take a stab at Prince Thrakath. Not exactly unimortant work. Anyway, if I was to put forth an educated guess as to why they went from a cadet cruise to an 'important' ship was the prescence of Tolwyn. Confed High Command was punishing Tolwyn because he wouldn't fight the war their way (from Red and Blue) so whenever Captain Thorn took over command of the Tigers Claw, I'm sure Confleet command had no problem sending her on more 'important' work.
Next question "commodore commanding a ship and fighter compliment"? Well, as for the first part, see above. As for commanding the fighter compliment, it seems he only commanded the cadets (when making announcements, he called for all cadet pilots), since they were there to learn from him (its been suggested that the series was a type of 'command school', seems to fit pretty well).
Final question, shield/weapons technology dominance does seem to seesaw back and forth, but just because we can kill a target with guns doesn't mean torpedoes are of no use. Look at WC3. Torpedoes always remained the fastest way to killl a capship, it just depended on whether or not they were the only way. Plus the 'seesaw' comes to a point when guns only can kill a capship quickly enough (IE the ship can be killed in the 30 second lock time required for a torpedo, during which a bomber can be torn apart) that carrying huge bombers and the torpedo munitions to supply them became space better suited for other necessities.

Edit: I just type slow I guess :(

as for your "fiction continuity" for torpedoes, see my argument.

C-ya
 
Viper61 said:
The past few posts you've made about this subject have got to be the strangest argument against something I've ever seen here. A piece of history is listed in a document/game/book that is sanctioned by the creating company of the franchise, but you still think that this "doesn't mean that the fiction components are also accepted as official"? Where are we supposed to draw history from to make it official? Does everyone need to email Roberts everytime they have a question because we can't trust anything that Origin put out (including the games) to be canon? :( Thats got to be the worst argument I've seen here in a while.
Theres a thread somewhere around here that lists all the sources that say Blair and Maniac were at the academy togther, a few of which are your "official canon sources" of the games and their respective manuals.

Some of "my" official sources. :rolleyes: Nice. Seems some of you guys think alike. lol

Ok, so I see that anything with the WC name is considered to be unquestionable holy writ of the WC universe and fiction around here, and that this is a situation which is enjoyed. Whatever. I'm just pointing out logical inconsistencies in all this material. Personalities changed retroactively, nationalities changed entirely, entire new fiction points were suddenly inserted (and then forgotten about for periods if you view the time line as a whole), fighter and weapons designs and concepts were retroactively inserted and periodically forgotten about in the same manner, ditto relationships, and even military intelligence (Blair ran in to Prince Thrakhath as often as co-workers do (yes, an exaggeration), and yet Halcyon present information about him as though info on him and his status are recent acquisitions in SM2).

In short, it just doesn't make sense. (that isn't to say that it can't be forced to fit together in crude fashion and accepted however)
 
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