Poll -- take two

Who is the WCU project leader; And, who should have the final say on what goes in?

  • Total voters
  • Poll closed .
dan_w said:
I guess we both did. The question is: who won, who lost? We shall see.
Most of us could make a fairly accurate prediction re: what's about to occur.

The most of us with more than 20 days under our belts.
Frosty said:
Hey now, there's no need to talk about spiritplumber like that.


Seriously guys... let's quit this ^^; since I and LOAF are about even, I suggest that option 3 is a good compromise, and let's be done with it...
Congratulations LOAF you just ran off your first dev. Excellent example of leadership. Tell me how this promotes the project?
actually, if you want to get technical on this issue...

Dan_W ran off because he wasn unable to handle any kind of criticism. that and apparently having someone post examples (as a means of help) somehow offended him, and turned me into a 'bossy arrogant'...wow.

anyway, there's the facts.
I can't speak about Dan because I don't know the guy, but I certainly know I won't have any more affiliation with this project until some manner of sanity has been restored. I don't care who's in charge, but I want to see SOMETHING happen...and if the open-ended nature of the design goes down the tubes, then I probably won't have much to offer, because most of my input would be coming from the fact that my own project is a pen-and-paper RPG that has a lot of similarities to the the current WCU.
I voted, "LOAF should have final say, Spiritplumber should coordinate". That doesn't really state how I feel; that things should be decided by agreement and compromise, but it's closest to how I feel things will/should work. LOAF will go "that's good" or "that's bad" and 98% of the time people will agree with him due to his superior WC knowledge. However, in that 2% of the time, I really think it should be down to how those doing the work feel things should go.
Forlarren said:
Congratulations LOAF you just ran off your first dev. Excellent example of leadership. Tell me how this promotes the project?
It takes two to tango. Dan_w was being pretty inflammatory. I have to say that, even though the whole thing might have stemmed from the 'disagreement' in the Michelle thread which you might argue LOAF started, dan_w was trying pretty hard to be as obnoxious as possible from what I saw before his posts were deleted.

To add to that, Forlarren, you're not coming across to well yourself. Whilst I do think LOAF has a thing or two to learn about cooperation, he's not really being anything other than overbearing. He hasn't been downright rude or immature, which is how you and dan_w have been behaving.

Dan_w chased himself off. You can't blame LOAF for everything.

EDIT: Oh, wait, those posts weren't deleted - they're available for everybody to read:

I do not think I have been unduly rude to LOAF. The guy talks out both sides of his mouth. Calling people names is immature, and I am guilty of it. I do hold those who are in a leadership posison (or desire as such) to a higher standard, including myself. Thats why I am not in charge of anything.

LOAF wants to lead. Well these are the types of problems that will be most prevalent. I dont think he handled it well. LOAF seems critical enough of everyone else, I dont see why he should have a problem with me picking every nit as I see them. If LOAF would like to set a diffrent example I would be happy to follow it.

Tell you all what. I am willing to compramise but untell I see LOAF bend a little, anywhere I just cant see how that is possable. LOAF honestly sees his steemrolling tact as an endeering quality of leadership.

Dan_w did blow a fuse though (and has before). So I dont completly blame LOAF, I just think the situation was handeled poorly.
At the moment, we're stuck with a conundrum.

Spiritplumber seems, frankly, tired. Very, very tired.

LOAF, on the other hand, is fired up to go...But seems to have conflicts break out wherever he goes.

Meanwhile, everybody else is tired of the fighting.

So, I'm going to do something very stupid, and offer myself up as a peace candidate.

What I would expect if people pick me:

1. Everybody involved is going to need to calm down, breathe, and think. I can handle conflict, and I can handle arguments. But there is a limit.

2. The nature of this project means that compromises will have to be made. My view on keeping to the canon is as follows: When at all possible, we keep to it as closely as the technology we use allows. However, playability needs to come before complete fidelity; some things can't be done (secret compartments), and some things (such as user interface and controls) can and should be done better than was managed back when Origin was programming things. The way I see canon is that it applies to art in a general sense, ship capabilities, timeline, and storyline. It also applies to the general "feel" of things. It *doesn't* apply to the user interface (where we should keep to the "feel", but should feel free to improve upon it where possible), to features (this is, I feel, an "extended" project, so if things fit within the Wing Commander canon but were never done in a game, we should feel free to add them (within reason), such as wingmen (for example)), or to things that are demanded by the VegaStrike engine. (VS is Newtonian physics, as I understand it. Wing Commander isn't. Nonetheless, we should deal with the engine on its terms, and accept Newtonian physics.)

Now, why do I say we should deviate on some things?

User Interface - This is a personal thing of mine. I'm very sensitive to the usablity of user interfaces, and think that where we can do things so that we can improve the interface for the user, we should. Frankly, I always wind up asking myself who the idiot was that designed some bit of the WC user interfaces in some way.

Features - There are things which weren't added because the code and technology at the time couldn't handle them. There are things which may not have been thought of. And there are things which would be essential in the large scale which we're aiming at. We can all dig up examples, but let's not do that here.

Compromises demanded by the VegaStrike engine - Let's forego reinventing the wheel, OK? If a later version of VS can handle things properly, great. But until that happens, we have to work with what we have. An example: Turrets on a Drayman, or some of the other compromises spiritplumber's come up with. They may not be perfect, but they work as a temporary solution until we can get, say, escort code to work properly.

3. With all that said, if I wind up acting as the coordinating/deciding-person on this, I plan on applying a very, very light touch. I would decide things only if consensus can't be reached. If conflicts erupt, I *do not* promise consistency in how I decide; I usually decide things based upon the situation at hand, with the aim of getting towards a common outcome. If that means two similar things come out differently, so be it.

4. Where compromises between absolute fidelity to the canon and playability must be made...I'll make a decision. Please, just accept that decision. You don't have to like it, but there's a balance of factors to be considered in every choice. If we have conflict over every issue, we'll never get things done.

5. I have Attention Deficit Disorder in real life. This means that, out of necessity, I survive because of order. X before Y, in order. I mix them up, I'm lost. This applies to projects as much as anything else.

I tend, as a consequence to be very "milestone-focused": What needs to happen for points in development to be reached?

So long as we keep to a standard of quality, I could care less about how you go about things. I would *recommend* standardizing, but know I could never force it.

But regardless of how things happen, I will say that I would expect X to be done before we even touch Y. (When X is done is immaterial; We have no time pressures here, or at least we shouldn't.)

6. Communication. Communication. Communication. Thusfar, we've no problems here. We should try not to. Expect me to drum things.

7. This is a sideline to everything else. If it comes down to me picking "leaders" for various task areas (though I would hope they arise naturally), I will. The key for said people would be the ability to get along with others, not necessarily technical skill. Meaning, you may be Da Vinci, but if you act like a petulant artiste, I'm going to look to someone else, anybody else, to take the lead. Why? Because I *know* I have neither the skill nor the motivation to micromanage. I may think up ideas and general guidelines (like, could coders *please* document their code? It's annoying, it's scutwork, but it's very necessary...), but will rely on task leaders to communicate with each other to get things done. That means that if you tend to be the aggressive, abraisive type, I'm not going to have the patience to deal with you. Additionally, I am *not* going to spend hours upon hours a day with this. This would be dealt with along with everything else in my day, falling firmly behind say, schoolwork for attention.


How I figure I'd organize things, in no order, with particularly no order of precedence. Also, this is a tentative sketch:

  • Continuity Consultant: LOAF. He'd be responsible for checking if things "felt" like WC, within limits.
  • Programming - The people who deal with the code.
  • Art - Modelers, drawing types, and people who make things look good.
  • Universe - This is where I'd focus. Working with LOAF, we'd figure out the details of the WC universe, filling in what gaps are left by WC. (Please be advised, I'm working off the premise that the game will be set on or about 2669, as in Privateer. So, like, no Nephilim, no BW, etc.) This would be something for people with a clue about politics, sociology, economics, etc. It would also deal with military affairs, where the official stuff is silent.
  • Plots and Storylines - Writers' playground. People who create plots and storylines.
  • Space and Geography - Where Wing Commander is silent, this group would work on "what should be where?" This is, IMHO, as much about politics and military strategy as anything else.

The idea would be that people would work on multiple things at once. Well, hopefully.
I vote for Penta2.

Edit: But please do not count my vote. This should not be a public thing. I am not a dev. I don't have to work with Penta2, I may in the future, but although I think my opinion matters, I do not feel I have any right to be counted.
Eh, I don't think I have anything to do with Dan_W losing it -- he's the guy who wanted to met me know beforehand that he hated me because I'm friends with BradMick.

We were working on a few paragraphs of mission statement earlier, here's what we've done so far: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/wcudesign1.doc
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Very good so far, Bandit. I would suggest, though, it's a bit off-topic in this thread and - more importantly - is worth a new thread anyway.

You could put it up in an appropriate portion of the Vega Strike Wiki which might make collaborative editing of the document easier.

If you start a new thread, I'll volunteer to start organising the WCU wiki bit. ;)
Sure, sure, figured it'd be good to change the direction of this thread (G) Give me another night or so to work it out a bit more and we can wiki it.
Well somebody could set up a wiki on wcuniverse.sf.net but for now it'll quicker/easier to just create our own corner on the VS wiki.
That and having your own wiki is overrated. This is a VS mod, so having a WCU bit on the VS wiki is hardly out-of-place. It's far more pragmatic to just use that for now until there is enough content to warrant it being it's own wiki.