New Capship

"Destroyers are very cheap, small warships designed expressly for the purpose of killing other warships in packs. They're also quite disposable, at least compared to other fleet units. They don't have the best armor, but they're definitely speedy and loaded with enough guns and torpedoes to make life interesting for larger craft."

What source is this coming from? Historically, the term Destroyer comes from Torpedo Boat Destroyer. They were used as screens for larger capital ships, much like the Murphy seems to be. Any destroyer captain back in WWII would have been out of his mind to attack a cruiser.

Also, WWII Battleships and Carriers both mounted a crapload of 20mm and 40mm mounts. Closer to 100 than 10, depending on class. They also employed 5" dual purpose guns for AA. AA guns arent mounted much anymore because of the development of the guided missile.
 
Stealth_C^ said:
Historically, the term Destroyer comes from Torpedo Boat Destroyer. They were used as screens for larger capital ships, much like the Murphy seems to be. Any destroyer captain back in WWII would have been out of his mind to attack a cruiser.
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I'm sure there is plenty of documentation of destroyer squadrons taking on capital ships. Granted they never come out unscathed, but then again the destroyer was never meant to be invincible. And, destroyers in WW2 had enough torps to at least give a cruiser some hurting, and a squadron of destroyers could probably be hell on the seas before they had to turn away for thier own survival. 5 inch deck guns may do nothing to capship armor, but a well placed torp with a magnetic fuze could snap a keel no problem.

EDIT: Here's one destroyer, in the pacific, for example: http://home.insightbb.com/~destanley/aus4.htm
 
I too like to design new ships, but you have to stick to certain guidelines, as psych suggested. Just read the novels; there are at least a dozen, if not more ships mentioned, with most of them beeing not described in terms of appearence, armament; mostly the class is given only, like e.g. the old Granius class corvettes.This leaves plenty of freedom to us to make up something. Though I haven't read all novels, I knew there were mentioned heavy cruisers and battlecruisers, but we don't really see ships of this classification in the games, so I made one.
For fighters, there's more room; if you look on WWII, the total number of fighter types doubles or triples the number of the popular ones that most of us know, considering there were many prototypes, crafts which were only produced in few mumbers for some reason and blablabla. If you create a completely new craft, you'd have to make up a credible background story that explaines why it isn't as common as other craft, like I did with my F-34 Cutlass, which has a, let's say, very sensible ejector system. :p
 
I don’t have a name for it yet but here is a new escort carrier :)

Class: Escort Carrier (CVE)
Length: 635 Meters
Mass: 21,500
Max Speed: 320 Kps
Acceleration: 75 kps^2
Y/P/R 8/8/8
Armament: Triple Laser Turrets (3), Dual Laser Turrets (4) Laser Turrets (2) 1x3 IR missile launcher
Bridge Armor: 2200 Cm
Engine Armor: 2400 Cm
Turret Armor: 800 cm
Launcher Armor: 2000 cm
Hangar Armor: 1800 cm
Crew: 900
Fighter Complement: 50
Shuttles: 4
Marine LCs: 2
Jump Capable: Yes

Designed to outrun anything it can’t outfight it serves as a carrier complement to destroyer and cruiser squadrons , a quick interdiction carrier or a convoy escort, the high top speed came at the expense of armor protection.
 
Stealth_C^ said:
"Destroyers are very cheap, small warships designed expressly for the purpose of killing other warships in packs. They're also quite disposable, at least compared to other fleet units. They don't have the best armor, but they're definitely speedy and loaded with enough guns and torpedoes to make life interesting for larger craft."

What source is this coming from? Historically, the term Destroyer comes from Torpedo Boat Destroyer. They were used as screens for larger capital ships, much like the Murphy seems to be. Any destroyer captain back in WWII would have been out of his mind to attack a cruiser.

Also, WWII Battleships and Carriers both mounted a crapload of 20mm and 40mm mounts. Closer to 100 than 10, depending on class. They also employed 5" dual purpose guns for AA. AA guns arent mounted much anymore because of the development of the guided missile.
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Look at the way we use Destroyers in the WC series - and as I stated in my previous comment, they're rather disposable... and they're designed to attack other capships in PACKS. When you've got three destroyers coming at your ship, you've got a problem.

In the WC series, we've been given destroyers who are relatively light on most of the anti-fighter weapons, but they're fast enough to go after larger capships in small groups to do serious damage to the more expensive craft. That's why we've got Destroyer Squadrons, remember? They're not supposed to go one-on-one with capships in battle; they instead go after them as a group of two, three, or more, or else screen the larger ships against other capships like destroyers.
 
"I'm sure there is plenty of documentation of destroyer squadrons taking on capital ships. " A few, but there are more examples of a group of destroyers running away from larger capital ships such as cruisers. An 8" gun from WWII had a lot longer range than any torpedo except the Japanese long lance. Torpedoes were slow and not incredibly accurate weapons, easily dodged by a cruiser that can make a good 33 knots. The only time I can recall where destroyers were actually victorious in battle is off Savo Island in WWII at night time. The Americans got embarrassed like nobody's business too.

"Look at the way we use Destroyers in the WC series " Yes the Murphy seems to be a great picket ship which fills out escorting roles nicely. The gilgameshes in wc2 and the sheffields of wc3 that we saw were all escorts for the most part. None of them were in packs attacking cruisers.
 
Stealth_C^ said:
"I'm sure there is plenty of documentation of destroyer squadrons taking on capital ships. " A few, but there are more examples of a group of destroyers running away from larger capital ships such as cruisers. An 8" gun from WWII had a lot longer range than any torpedo except the Japanese long lance. Torpedoes were slow and not incredibly accurate weapons, easily dodged by a cruiser that can make a good 33 knots. The only time I can recall where destroyers were actually victorious in battle is off Savo Island in WWII at night time. The Americans got embarrassed like nobody's business too.

"Look at the way we use Destroyers in the WC series " Yes the Murphy seems to be a great picket ship which fills out escorting roles nicely. The gilgameshes in wc2 and the sheffields of wc3 that we saw were all escorts for the most part. None of them were in packs attacking cruisers.
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World War I: US Navy doctrine also stated that you used your destroyer groups, when on the offensive, were to go after the enemy naval groups as a forward line ahead of the cruisers, to attack the enemy's cruiser formation, or to attack destroyers if the friendly forces were superior in number to the enemy's in that situation. Destroyers' main weapons in such a fight were torpedoes, given the fact that their guns being less potent than those on a cruiser.

World War II: Submarines were among the most lethal ships at sea, due to their stealthiness. Squadrons of destroyers were detailed to help kill them, along with the armed merchantmen ships and frigates which escorted the convoys across the Atlantic. Their PRIMARY mission was to be a screen for other, heavier ships - but they carried torpedoes to go after anything up to battleship-class vessels. Tactics for engagements would require things including salvos - which are hard to pull off with a single ship, especially given the unreliable nature of American torpedoes right up till late 1943 or so. They were used in independent strike groups, to attack other destroyers or larger ships while the main fleet either went in on another area, or were involved in other matters.

We used them that way in the Battle of Terra, where Destroyer Squadrons were used to launch attacks on the Kilrathi supercarrier Craxtha. Frigates and destroyers were used this way in the WC4 novel to launch attacks against the Vesuvius, IIRC. In End Run, the Kilrathi were using destroyers against the Tarawa as much as they were doing it against the escorts.

You'd have to be a moron to send a destroyer out against a battleship alone - that or really wanting to kill a bunch of people on that destroyer. That's not even a gamble.
 
"The TCS Hector attacks and destroys a Fralthra in WC2" Last time I played that game it was running the hell away from the fralthra and I had to go torpedo the stupid thing.

"World War I: US Navy doctrine also stated that you used your destroyer groups, when on the offensive, were to go after the enemy naval groups as a forward line ahead of the cruisers, to attack the enemy's cruiser formation, or to attack destroyers if the friendly forces were superior in number to the enemy's in that situation. Destroyers' main weapons in such a fight were torpedoes, given the fact that their guns being less potent than those on a cruiser. " Exactly what naval battle did the US fight in WWI? Yes they would always try to make torpedo attacks when possible, but that doesn't mean they were incredibly effective or a tactic that was used later. Besides, they were screening ships for the fleet, trying to weaken enemy forces. The US wasnt going to send out 5 destroyers with nothing to back them up against a cruiser. That would be suicide.

"Their PRIMARY mission was to be a screen for other, heavier ships - but they carried torpedoes to go after anything up to battleship-class vessels." Good to hear.

"Tactics for engagements would require things including salvos - which are hard to pull off with a single ship, especially given the unreliable nature of American torpedoes right up till late 1943 or so. They were used in independent strike groups, to attack other destroyers or larger ships while the main fleet either went in on another area, or were involved in other matters." Yes when destroyers were escorting something and they had no backup they made lots of suicide attacks on larger ships and a lot of the time they paid the price for it. Never though did the US navy take a group of destroyers and tell it to single handedly take on an enemy cruiser or battleship unless they had another alternative (especially since aircraft were the method of choice anyways).

"We used them that way in the Battle of Terra, where Destroyer Squadrons were used to launch attacks on the Kilrathi supercarrier Craxtha." We were also throwing out civilian craft at the kilrathi, that doesnt mean that we do this on a regular basis. If in a melee battle they see an opening, of course they are going to take it.

"Frigates and destroyers were used this way in the WC4 novel to launch attacks against the Vesuvius, IIRC." And the border worlds had lots of other ships to throw at it too?

"In End Run, the Kilrathi were using destroyers against the Tarawa as much as they were doing it against the escorts. " Kind of funny since the kilrathi light destroyer is the epitomy of the picket ship, but they never showed much in the way of brains anyways. Besides, the Tarawa isnt exactly a cruiser in terms of firepower.

If a group of destroyers were going head to head against a cruiser (or heavier) with no support at all, which do you think would win? How many battleships or cruisers have been recorded as being sunk by destroyers alone? Probably not a whole heck of a lot.
 
Stealth_C^ said:
"The TCS Hector attacks and destroys a Fralthra in WC2" Last time I played that game it was running the hell away from the fralthra and I had to go torpedo the stupid
thing.
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Game engine AI limitations aside, we do have patrol or strike mission in the first few WC games where Ralaris are sunk because they're posing a threat to the Claw - by themselves. In WC4N, they and frigates are used against carriers in small groups to try to stop or at least slow down the enemy... and those carriers are bigger than they are, and fairly well armored and armed to boot. I notice you forgot to address that.

Stealth_C^ said:
"World War I: US Navy doctrine also stated that you used your destroyer groups, when on the offensive, were to go after the enemy naval groups as a forward line ahead of the cruisers, to attack the enemy's cruiser formation, or to attack destroyers if the friendly forces were superior in number to the enemy's in that situation. Destroyers' main weapons in such a fight were torpedoes, given the fact that their guns being less potent than those on a cruiser. " Exactly what naval battle did the US fight in WWI? Yes they would always try to make torpedo attacks when possible, but that doesn't mean they were incredibly effective or a tactic that was used later. Besides, they were screening ships for the fleet, trying to weaken enemy forces. The US wasnt going to send out 5 destroyers with nothing to back them up against a cruiser. That would be suicide.

"Their PRIMARY mission was to be a screen for other, heavier ships - but they carried torpedoes to go after anything up to battleship-class vessels." Good to hear.

"Tactics for engagements would require things including salvos - which are hard to pull off with a single ship, especially given the unreliable nature of American torpedoes right up till late 1943 or so. They were used in independent strike groups, to attack other destroyers or larger ships while the main fleet either went in on another area, or were involved in other matters." Yes when destroyers were escorting something and they had no backup they made lots of suicide attacks on larger ships and a lot of the time they paid the price for it. Never though did the US navy take a group of destroyers and tell it to single handedly take on an enemy cruiser or battleship unless they had another alternative (especially since aircraft were the method of choice anyways).

"We used them that way in the Battle of Terra, where Destroyer Squadrons were used to launch attacks on the Kilrathi supercarrier Craxtha." We were also throwing out civilian craft at the kilrathi, that doesnt mean that we do this on a regular basis. If in a melee battle they see an opening, of course they are going to take it.

"Frigates and destroyers were used this way in the WC4 novel to launch attacks against the Vesuvius, IIRC." And the border worlds had lots of other ships to throw at it too?

"In End Run, the Kilrathi were using destroyers against the Tarawa as much as they were doing it against the escorts. " Kind of funny since the kilrathi light destroyer is the epitomy of the picket ship, but they never showed much in the way of brains anyways. Besides, the Tarawa isnt exactly a cruiser in terms of firepower.

If a group of destroyers were going head to head against a cruiser (or heavier) with no support at all, which do you think would win? How many battleships or cruisers have been recorded as being sunk by destroyers alone? Probably not a whole heck of a lot.
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The point of the detachment of a destroyer group in this fashion is not to WIN - they're meant to bring the enemy ship on the defensive, by posing a sufficient threat to require it. Remember that destroyers are cheap but fast, and the inclusion of torpedoes was meant to make them dangerous to anything else in the water. Beyond which, US Navy doctrine was to pair destroyer groups, when possible, with cruisers.. and to defend against destroyers with cruisers, whose bigger guns would blow holes through their thin hulls.

Destroyers are used as screening forces and as escorts, due to their speed and their ability to be built in large numbers, quickly. I could probably quote DesRon 21, 24, 54, and 56's Kongo-kills or contribution to such, but you've probably read about that.

Sometimes the point of a fight isn't to win, after all - that's why we were supposed to be the feint against the Sivar in WC1:SM1. And why the Claw got so badly shot up at Custer's Carnival a few years earlier.
 
"Destroyers are used as screening forces and as escorts, due to their speed and their ability to be built in large numbers, quickly." You keep trying to agree with me, yet you keep trying to argue. Although its more due to their ability to be built in large numbers. Destroyer escorts (another name for frigates I suppose) were pretty slow since all they were escorting were merchantmen which were slow.

"Destroyers are very cheap, small warships designed expressly for the purpose of killing other warships in packs. They're also quite disposable, at least compared to other fleet units. They don't have the best armor, but they're definitely speedy and loaded with enough guns and torpedoes to make life interesting for larger craft" You seem to be contradicting your original statement here.

Yes they used destroyers and frigates to try and slow down the Vesuvius. This is not what they were designed for however. In your original statement you specifically state they are designed to go hunt down other warships and destroy them. They are designed to screen and escort more valuable ships. If they have to engage other vessels and sacrifice themselves then so be it. Fleet command doesnt just assign 5 destroyers to a wolf pack though and say here, go attack this carrier which you wont get anywhere near because its fighters will blow you away before you get within 100000 klicks of it.

"Game engine AI limitations aside, we do have patrol or strike mission in the first few WC games where Ralaris are sunk because they're posing a threat to the Claw - by themselves." Yes, they have guns, therefore they are a threat.
 
Stealth_C^ said:
"Destroyers are used as screening forces and as escorts, due to their speed and their ability to be built in large numbers, quickly." You keep trying to agree with me, yet you keep trying to argue. Although its more due to their ability to be built in large numbers. Destroyer escorts (another name for frigates I suppose) were pretty slow since all they were escorting were merchantmen which were slow.

"Destroyers are very cheap, small warships designed expressly for the purpose of killing other warships in packs. They're also quite disposable, at least compared to other fleet units. They don't have the best armor, but they're definitely speedy and loaded with enough guns and torpedoes to make life interesting for larger craft" You seem to be contradicting your original statement here.

Yes they used destroyers and frigates to try and slow down the Vesuvius. This is not what they were designed for however. In your original statement you specifically state they are designed to go hunt down other warships and destroy them. They are designed to screen and escort more valuable ships. If they have to engage other vessels and sacrifice themselves then so be it. Fleet command doesnt just assign 5 destroyers to a wolf pack though and say here, go attack this carrier which you wont get anywhere near because its fighters will blow you away before you get within 100000 klicks of it.

"Game engine AI limitations aside, we do have patrol or strike mission in the first few WC games where Ralaris are sunk because they're posing a threat to the Claw - by themselves." Yes, they have guns, therefore they are a threat.
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Before Action Stations, the WC idea of fleet actions was based around the use of battleships whose heavy guns would knock down the other ship's phase shields. The invention of the torpedo revolutionized capship combat, at least in WC terms, much as the usage of submarines did so for our own Naval wars on Earth. That's why torpedo bombers in WW2 and in WC are considered serious threats, and the main reason carriers are the heart of any strong fleet in WC.

Torpedoes are a significant threat to any capship - in WC, it only takes 3 torps, maybe four torps, to sink any ship in space, no matter how heavily armored it is. The development of heavier armor and shields for the Hakaga-class supercarriers upset this balance for a small period of time, as it proved invulnerable to previous generations of torpedoes... a problem that was apparently later solved through the introduction of the newest-generation torpedos by the time of WC3, which could punch through the improved shielding pioneered by the Hakaga class ships.

My original statement, far below, stated that destroyers were escort ships... but they're also designed to kill other warships cheaply - that's what escorts have to do sometimes, especially when you don't have fighters nearby to do the job (as in the case of convoys). Given that we've seen destroyers in WC which have the capability of launching two or three torps at once (Fleet Action shows one scene where these salvos were used in the classic WW2 style), ONE destroyer is a threat to a larger ship. Packs of them can kill larger enemy capships, which is why they're a threat. Your previous posts indicated that destroyers weren't useful against larger capships - which they aren't, if you go by mainline guns alone. But destroyers, both in WC fame and in real life, don't depend on their guns to put down other capships; that's where the torpedoes come in.

And the Fraltha that the Hector could destroy in WC2 was a cruiser - which, as I've also stated elsewhere, were more than adequate targets for destroyers despite having larger guns and more of them. The Hector was probably cheaper to build than the Fraltha was, too.
 
Haesslich said:
My original statement, far below, stated that destroyers were escort ships... but they're designed to kill other warships cheaply - that's what escorts have to do sometimes, especially when you don't have fighters nearby to do the job (as in the case of convoys). Given that we've seen destroyers in WC which have the capability of launching two or three torps at once (Fleet Action shows one scene where these salvos were used in the classic WW2 style), ONE destroyer is a threat to a larger ship. Packs of them can kill larger enemy capships, which is why they're a threat. Your previous posts indicated that destroyers weren't useful against larger capships - which they aren't, if you go by mainline guns alone. But destroyers, both in WC fame and in real life, don't depend on their guns to put down other capships; that's where the torpedoes come in.

And the Fraltha that the Hector could destroy in WC2 was a cruiser - which, as I've also stated elsewhere, were more than adequate targets for destroyers despite having larger guns and more of them. The Hector was probably cheaper to build than the Fraltha was, too.
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sigh...Destroyers can kill battleships and carriers, yes. But they are designed as escorts, to make sure what theyre escorting gets from point A to point B. In your original post stating what ships were for the only vessel you mentioned as an escort was a frigate. In an Arrow I can kill a kilrathi dreadnought. That doesnt mean that its designed to be a capital ship killer. Destroyers, much like arrows, are threats. Are they as big of a threat as the Vesuvius bearing down on you? No. Are they specifically designed to go out on their own to kill other capital ships for the heck of it? No. Do you ever see or hear about a group of destroyers patrolling around looking for a Kilrathi battleship to torpedo? Probably not. Do they escort other ships and try to make sure that ships like the Victory can get away from a threat should a problem arise? Yes. This is all I'm saying. Your original post said that destroyers are specifically designed to go kill other warships in packs. No mention of escort or screening anywhere in there. If you added that, I probably wouldnt have bugged you to death.
 
US navy fact file said:
Destroyers DD, DDG Description: These fast warships provide multi-mission offensive and defensive capabilities, and can operate independently or as part of carrier battle groups, surface action groups, amphibious ready groups, and underway replenishment groups.
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The fact is that destroyers are universal ships, not pure escorts, like WWII era frigates, corvettes or escort destroyers (cheap version of destroyer with less armor and torpedo tubes and more AA guns, and depth charges), and not pure offensive ships, like torpedo boats. I think that we can safely assume that this is the case also in WC universe
 
Dominator said:
The fact is that destroyers are universal ships, not pure escorts, like WWII era frigates, corvettes or escort destroyers (cheap version of destroyer with less armor and torpedo tubes and more AA guns, and depth charges), and not pure offensive ships, like torpedo boats. I think that we can safely assume that this is the case also in WC universe
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I dont really feel like arguing anymore. Suffice it to say its mission has changed over the years as has their size and armament since their main weapon now is the guided missile.
 
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