Kilrathi War.

Iceberg

Spaceman
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The Kilrathi weren't lead by a power-mad dictator...
They weren't? I seem to remember the Emperor talking to Thrakhath in more than one scene about the primary importance of maintaining their power base against the challenge of the other clans...
 

Mekt-Hakkikt

Mpanty's bane
Originally posted by Iceberg
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this:
The Kilrathi government attacked first.

Confed did not.

To the Kilrathi Captain of the K'rath'kan it appeared that the Terran ship attacked first.
I usually hate repeating myself but as it seems that nobody pays attention to this fact I have to do it. It is no excuse for Kilrathi attacks after the Confederation offered diplomatic measures but anyway is to be taken into consideration.
Maybe it is safe to say that the Kilrathi government was eviler than Confed but not straight evil. And the atrocities of the Kilrathi in WC3 were comitted because they ( I mean the emperor and his grandson, Prince Thrakhath) had to fear for their power, they considered the employment of bioweapons as dishonourable but they had to do it. And their fear of the Mantu is IMHO a very important fact. So these were the causes for the Kilrathi to do what they did or wanted to do. Now, you say the destruction of Kilrah was humanity's only chance for survival so it is not to be counted as true atrocity. But I think the reasons for the Kilrathi and their plans were as serious as the terran one's.
Either the Kiranka Clan would lose its power and a civil war would erupt which would be very bloody and long or the Mantu would return and destroy the Kilrathi while they were handling that "terran problem". So to them it was the only choice as it was to Confed to destroy Kilrah.
And after all: For the Kilrathi it was a fight to the death, every war was it for them. They had no reason to believe that mankind would treat them nicely if they lost because they thought like Kilrathi's: You win, the loser lives at your mercy; you lose and you are at the winner's mercy. And for a race which estimates honour so highly that would be devastating. To fail in war would mean to them to have failed as a race. So they fought for their lives.
Boy, that was really mostly repeated but I hope I also showed some new aspects.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The Emperor was the rightfull leader of the empire -- as chosen by blood, a system universally accepted by Kilrathi society. Just desiring to maintain his power base does not make him a dictator... *any* leader has to do this.
 

Iceberg

Spaceman
Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
Originally posted by Iceberg
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this:
The Kilrathi government attacked first.

Confed did not.

To the Kilrathi Captain of the K'rath'kan it appeared that the Terran ship attacked first.
For the life of me, I can't understand how ANYBODY who uses the same technology as the humans to communicate (as the Kilrathi do, otherwise you couldn't taunt them) could possibly misunderstand a communication attempt as an attack. This seems to be an excuse by the Kilrathi, and nothing more.
 

Dragon

Spaceman
The Iason send a universal greeting communication, it was just algerisms (I belive) and the Kilrathi ship could have belived that the Iason was trying to use a computer virus to lower the ship shields, so it opened fire.
The Iason had the shields lowered, that could also made the Kilrathi ship belive that ConFed did not have shield tecnology and was try sending a virus so it could destroy the Kilrathi ship, so it behave like that.
 

Iceberg

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
Try the Armada manual.

[Edited by Dragon on 02-25-2001 at 22:04]
We also know from "End Run" that the Kilrathi court historians alter their history to make things sound better.

Overall, the "historical documents" in the red ink (denoting Kilrathi) have more of a "state history" feel, whereas those in black ink (denoting Confed) have more of an "objective historian" feel.
 

Supdon3

Kal-El
That still doesnt excuse their continued assaults on Terran spacecraft before the outbreak of the war. Before they attacked McAuliffe, they knew Confed was trying to open peace talks and thought them cowards because of it.
 

Dragon

Spaceman
You said that the Iason send a verbal communication, it did not it send a "official aproved" non-verbal greeting, what the Kilrathi captain belive that the Iason was doing is what is important, he COULD belive that the Iason was doing that, if he did, why sould Kilrathi history be changed to make ConFed look bad.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Iceberg
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this:

The Kilrathi government was led by a power-mad dictator.

The Confed government was not.

[snip]

Therefore, the Kilrathi government was EVIL.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about THIS:

I never said anything about the Kilrathi government. All along, I've been arguing against the false assumption that the Kilrathi AS A RACE are evil, and that the destruction of Kilrah was essentially "speaking to them in the only language they understood - violence".

Whether Confed is good or at least less evil than the Kilrathi EMPIRE, is another matter entirely. I never even touched that matter, though admittedly I did at times refer to humans as 'Confed'. My point has always been that, as a race, w... they are no more evil than humans are.
 

Iceberg

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
Originally posted by Iceberg
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this:

The Kilrathi government was led by a power-mad dictator.

The Confed government was not.

[snip]

Therefore, the Kilrathi government was EVIL.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about THIS:

I never said anything about the Kilrathi government. All along, I've been arguing against the false assumption that the Kilrathi AS A RACE are evil, and that the destruction of Kilrah was essentially "speaking to them in the only language they understood - violence".

Whether Confed is good or at least less evil than the Kilrathi EMPIRE, is another matter entirely. I never even touched that matter, though admittedly I did at times refer to humans as 'Confed'. My point has always been that, as a race, w... they are no more evil than humans are.
I think the problem here is that most of us were talking about the Kilrathi EMPIRE as a government, not the Kilrathi as a race.

I was summing up the points that everybody was making, from how I understood this argument. I understand that the Kilrathi as a race have good and bad qualities, which is why, when enumerating the arguments, I specified the Kilrathi government.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The Kilrathi as a race *are* what we would call evil, though -- they consider all other races to be inferior, allowing them to kill and enslave any sentient beings without any moral problems. Yes, there are Kilrathi who deign to have human value systems -- and there are humans who would kill eachother... but *as a race*, the Kilrathi are comparitively evil.

The Iason did, indeed, send *non-verbal* communications -- it was her scans that the Kilrathi decided were weapons.
 

mpanty

Keen Commander
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The Kilrathi as a race *are* what we would call evil, though -- they consider all other races to be inferior, allowing them to kill and enslave any sentient beings without any moral problems. Yes, there are Kilrathi who deign to have human value systems -- and there are humans who would kill each other... but *as a race*, the Kilrathi are comparitively evil.
WOW!! It seems as if Bandit has finally chosen sides...:)
Welcome among the "anti-cats" LOAF... LOL

But seriously now, the Kilrathi have more than enough shown by their actions that their intentions were far from friendly, do we have to start this all over again?

They're the "bad guys", just admit it Quarto!
 

Dragon

Spaceman
And about the ones in those rebel colonies that join ConFed, if the Kilrathi as a race (not culture LOAF, we did the same things to fellow humans not so long ago) are evil, so are we.
 

Supdon3

Kal-El
Even the Kilrathi that beleive the war with humanity is wrong are still born killers. They didnt just turn thier backs on the Kilrathi way of being a hunter species. They still have no respect for sentient species that they consider weak. For them Humanity has proven itself to be a strong species worthy of respect. Im sure even the "traitors" on Ghora Khar still find it funny when ever someone mentions how the Utara came and gave Kilrathi jump technology, who then used it to turn around and wipe them out.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Now, before we delve into history and before we start ranting about American politics and what not -- we are *not* talking about mankind now, we're not talking about mankind hundreds of years ago -- we're talking about mankind in the 2600's.
 
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