Kilrathi War.

"Slaves, we have no shortage of...."
For the Kilrathi, humans were simple too low, but most in the end no longer belive in that.
Besides that was a terror tactic used (and frowed by the great majorety of the Kilrathi) to end the war sooner.
If fact after the battle of terra, Earth was simply a the human homeworld, it lost most of its ecomomical inportance, it was a target during the battle of terra (like the other colonies) because of its industries and manufacury facilitys, stategic warfere, not war of genicide.
It work, since ConFed lost the edge of the war.
 
Originally posted by Dragon
"Slaves, we have no shortage of...."
For the Kilrathi, humans were simple too low, but most in the end no longer belive in that.
Besides that was a terror tactic used (and frowed by the great majorety of the Kilrathi) to end the war sooner.
If fact after the battle of terra, Earth was simply a the human homeworld, it lost most of its ecomomical inportance, it was a target during the battle of terra (like the other colonies) because of its industries and manufacury facilitys, stategic warfere, not war of genicide.
It work, since ConFed lost the edge of the war.
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Thrakhath didn't specify *human* slaves. He merely said that the Kilrathi have no shortage of slaves.

At any rate, this is more evidence against the Kilrathi: Unlike humanity, they enslave alien races (we merely exploit them economically - a far better policy if you ask me. ;)).
 
Of course it is a better way to become partners than to become slaves. I really wouldn't like to be a slave of the Kilrathi, but who would like that? In fact, this problem which was shown up by WC is the general problem of humanity and space. The universe is so big and we should be alone in it? That's something I don't want to believe, what I can't believe. But if sb is out there, we have 4 possibilities:
a) They are peaceful and become our partners.
b) We ignore each other.
c)They just kill all other races (Independence Day or the Bugs).
d) They want to defeat the other races (in my scenario f. ex. us)and make us become their slaves.
And so we had a problem if we would meet another race at this time. How and with what should we in case c) or d) fight against them? They would blow us up or defeat us without any problem. And this is what scares me a little bit, 'cause we don't know what is out there (or where it is)
and when it comes. It can happen tomarrow or during the next thousand years.
 
Originally posted by Quarto
I do not see your point. If you could visit the White House during a war, do you think they would sound any different? This isn't the Kilrathi Empire's thinking process - this is the Kilrathi Government's thinking process. Governments, of course, are always cynical, and tend to follow so-called realist thinking. But what you're trying to say is that because the Germans were led by Hitler, they are all evil.
[/B]
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Quarto, I think we're talking past each other -- I fully agree
with your point that the Kilrathi *as a people* are
not any more evil than human beings *as a people*. There
is certainly plenty of evidence for "good" Kilrathi (
the noble Hallas, WC3 novels, Melek) and "bad humans"
(Tolwyn, to look no further). I fully agree that it
is their government that is the problem, and not
the people.

What I took exception to -- and still do -- is that
you appeared to be saying that Confed and Kilrathi
were morally equivalent. That this is a war in which
both sides are equally at fault, both sides
wage with equal atrocity, and both sides are equally
nasty.

I disagree. While there are many noble Kilrathi,
their government is the one that shoots helpless
civilians *as a policy*, their government is the one
that approved the use of bioweapons, their government
is the one that made an armistice and ruthlessly
broke it. To use the Nazi Germany analogy, I agree
that not all Germans in WWII were evil, but I draw
the line at saying that the german government in that
war was "good".

Continuing the analogy, your post seemed to say "Those
Nazis were actually all right guys! All that stuff
you here about them doing bad things is a bunch of
allied propaganda!". I took strong exception to that.
Although there is doubtless Confed propaganda that
makes the Kilrathi out to be worse than they are, (just
as allied propaganda made the Germans out to be worse
than they really were -- there is no record, for example,
of any U-boat machinegunning survivors in the water,
although at least 1 American boat did) -- even discounting
the propaganda, there is still overwhelming evidence (from
the cutscenes and the novelization in WC, from the
historical record in WWII) that the Kilrathi government/
Nazi government were the bad guys in that war.

So, I AGREE that there are "good" Kilrathi.
I DISAGREE with moral equivalence between the governments
of the two sides. They may (or may not) both be evil,
but one is clearly more aggressive, ruthless, and
contemptuous of sentient life than the other. That
side is the Kilrathi. They are the bad guys.

As I recall, the etymology of their name is a myth, completely baseless.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? I've seen it quoted as fact by PC Games
magazine. Is there anyone out there who can say for
sure, and produce evidence to back it up?

But your point is false - the Kilrathi were clearly not just evildoers. Did you somehow miss WC2, with its Ghorah Khar, K'arakh, N'tanya, and Shariha? WC products tell us all over the place that the Kilrathi are not evil.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. If you look back through this thread
at my other posts that were not addressed to you, you
will see that I used that very point in arguing that
the Kilrathi themselves were the victims of an evil
government. I have argued the very point you are making
here! :) I have NEVER said (or meant to say, anyway) that
"all Kilrathi are evil". It is not true. But I reject
categorically moral equivalence between the two
governments.


Thanks for the thoughtful response to my post! Always
grateful when someone puts work into their responses.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

"Even a D- Student in history knows it is better to be the
hammer than the nail" -- Thanks, Iceberg!
 
We do indeed seem to be talking past each other, Pendell. I am certainly NOT denying Kilrathi atrocities. What I am saying, is this:

1. Confed only talks about Kilrathi ATTROCITIES. That's the general idea behind propaganda, even when it's all facts - to make the enemy look bad by denying that they have their good aspects.
2. Confed NEVER talks about CONFED ATTROCITIES. Yet we've got several indications that they have occured.

Based on those two points, I contend that both sides were pulling dirty moves - this certainly would be consistent with what we know of human nature. What bothers me is that we get all high and righteous about how evil the Kilrathi are, when we don't even know what Confed did! Can anyone be naive enough to assume that Confed never went as far as the Kilrathi? We've seen in the games how far the hatred went. We KNOW that Confed comitted attrocities on its own civilians. Why wouldn't they do so to the Kilrathi?

It is because of this that I contend that both sides were morally equal. If Confed seems better to us, it is only because Confed is OUR side.
 
I hate it: I miss one day in the forum and everything rushes past me:( .
First, mpanty, thanks for the laurels !
Second, now there are very few arguments that have not been mentioned for a pro-cat attitude by Quarto and others.
Still, I want to summarize my opinion even if it is redundant:
The Kilrathi are not an evil race (I think we agree on that now), neither are the humans (in WC). And, yes it is my firm belief that Confed also comitted atrocities e.g. Vukar Tag and, last but not least: Confed ordered to kill billions of Kilrathi civilians by destroying their HOMEWORLD. OK, it was perhaps a necessary atrocity but nevertheless it was one. So the terran government was no better at all.And now imagine the Kilrathi would not have surrendered after the loss of Kilrah: Do you think Confed would have stopped using this weapon? I think not.
OK the Temblor bomb would not work on all planets but what about the Behemoth?
But as it is speculation (the Kilrathi did surrender as far as I remember, ah it has been a long time since I played WC3 :) ) I will not argument on that point, it was just to make you think.
And I still belief that their fear of the Mantu was the driving power for most of the atrocities in WC3, as well that the power of the Kiranka clan was in danger. They had to end the war quickly, even if they did not like to use bioweapons, because they are not honorable.

[Edited by Mekt-Hakkikt on 02-25-2001 at 05:24]
 
Originally posted by Quarto
We do indeed seem to be talking past each other, Pendell. I am certainly NOT denying Kilrathi atrocities. What I am saying, is this:

1. Confed only talks about Kilrathi ATTROCITIES. That's the general idea behind propaganda, even when it's all facts - to make the enemy look bad by denying that they have their good aspects.
2. Confed NEVER talks about CONFED ATTROCITIES. Yet we've got several indications that they have occured.

Based on those two points, I contend that both sides were pulling dirty moves - this certainly would be consistent with what we know of human nature. What bothers me is that we get all high and righteous about how evil the Kilrathi are, when we don't even know what Confed did! Can anyone be naive enough to assume that Confed never went as far as the Kilrathi? We've seen in the games how far the hatred went. We KNOW that Confed comitted attrocities on its own civilians. Why wouldn't they do so to the Kilrathi?
Click to expand...
There is no canon evidence to support the the supposition that Confed committed war atrocities as a matter of government policy (are you playing a different series of games than I am??).

When during the war did Confed commit atrocities on its own civilians? I specify during the war because we all know about Tolwyn's actions. And when was it done as a matter of government policy, as opposed to the actions of Tolwyn, who is explicitly described in canon as having developed bio-weapons in direct contradiction of government edict?

Attacking a border worlds convoy was NOT an atrocity. They were violating the no-fly edict, they got called on it, and they eventually backed down.

It is because of this that I contend that both sides were morally equal. If Confed seems better to us, it is only because Confed is OUR side.
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This is crap. We have canon evidence that the Kilrathi committed war crimes on a FAR greater scale than any Confed crime, and that they did so as a matter of government policy (UNLIKE the Confederation, which prosecuted the senior officers of the Gettysburg). We have official evidence that the Kilrathi were on a crusade to destroy humanity. In short, we have evidence that the Kilrathi were far worse than Confed.
 
PC Gamer - July, 2000, page 76, interview with Chris Roberts:
5: What's the best "Insider" story you have about the Wing Commander series, or the creation of any of the games?

Originally, I was trying to come up with a name for the aliens mankind was going to be fighting in my new space game, Squadron (which became Wing Commander). Finally, after a long night at work, I gave up, putting a placeholder in. It was created because I saw these aliens as killing with wrath... Kill... Wrath... Kilrath... I tacked on an "i", wrote down Kilrathi and decided it would do until I came up with a real name.
Click to expand...

So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth.
 
**The Kilrathi had to fight us because if they didnt they would have wiped each other out.**

funny to me it seems that works both ways. Humans have been killing each other for as far back as history was recorded, and more then likely since there existance. I think both sides are evil, just in different ways. The Kilrathi act based on a thurst for strife. Humans act out of greed,ignorance and hate. But most ATTROCITIES were probably acts of desperation, of which both races were guilty. I certianly wouldn't have been a Confed pilot for long , not just because if it was real there would be no "replay mission" option, but because all the hate would of gotten to me. It would be all around you, as it is in real life, but if the life of those who were consumed with hate were in my hands, well let's just say I'd find a lot of solitude on my flights back to the carrier.
 
The Kilrathi attrocities *weren't* acts of desperation or hatred -- they were slaughtering our civilians before the war started, and they were ignoring all diplomatic efforts from the Confederation...
 
They had no respect for any other species besides their own and thought nothing of killing civilians. It was like exterminating bugs to them.
 
Originally posted by Supdon3
They had no respect for any other species besides their own and thought nothing of killing civilians. It was like exterminating bugs to them.
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Introducing... ZERO WING COMMANDER!

KILRATHI ADMIRAL: All your base are belong to us!
TERRAN ADMIRAL: Someone set us up the bomb!

Admittedly, it has nothing to do with the thread, but... anything for a laugh. ^^;

[Edited by Iceberg on 02-25-2001 at 15:40]
 
Originally posted by Dekkar
**The Kilrathi had to fight us because if they didnt they would have wiped each other out.**

funny to me it seems that works both ways. Humans have been killing each other for as far back as history was recorded, and more then likely since there existance. I think both sides are evil, just in different ways. The Kilrathi act based on a thurst for strife. Humans act out of greed,ignorance and hate. But most ATTROCITIES were probably acts of desperation, of which both races were guilty. I certianly wouldn't have been a Confed pilot for long , not just because if it was real there would be no "replay mission" option, but because all the hate would of gotten to me. It would be all around you, as it is in real life, but if the life of those who were consumed with hate were in my hands, well let's just say I'd find a lot of solitude on my flights back to the carrier.
Click to expand...

If the survival of my entire species were on the line and I could make a difference, you can bet I'd fight. Sure, the human species has a lot of potential for evil, but it also has a lot of potential for good, and that doesn't deserve to get wiped out.
 
Fact: The Cats would have utterly annhiliated the Human race. If not, they would have enslaved us.

Fact: The Cats were allowed to live free, rather than being exterminated or enslaved. Severe restrictions were placed on their spaceflight capabilities, but that stands to reason. You don't want to have an enemy that implacable at your back with the capability to stick a knife in it.

Fact: The Emperor decreed the enslavement, then extermination of Humanity.

Fact: The only really known atrocity on the part of Confed forces during the war was the order by the Captain of the Gettysburg to kill Kilrathi civilians. This action was condemned by Confed High Command. Had it been a matter of government policy, as Quarto seems to maintain, the incident would have been either pardoned or praised. I submit that Vukar does not qualify as an atrocity.
 
Originally posted by Fenris
Fact: The Cats would have utterly annhiliated the Human race. If not, they would have enslaved us.
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And your point is...

Originally posted by Fenris

Fact: The Cats were allowed to live free, rather than being exterminated or enslaved. Severe restrictions were placed on their spaceflight capabilities, but that stands to reason. You don't want to have an enemy that implacable at your back with the capability to stick a knife in it..
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For Crying out loud, what sould we do?
Kill then all or enslaved then.
If ConFed had a diferent political system, similar to the Kilrathi, we would the same to then as they did to us, kill all Kilrathi or use then as slaves.

Originally posted by Fenris

Fact: The Emperor decreed the enslavement, then extermination of Humanity.
Click to expand...

So, what sould the Kilrathi do? the emperor had the ultimate power, Kilrathi political system is not the same as ConFed.

Originally posted by Fenris


Fact: The only really known atrocity on the part of Confed forces during the war was the order by the Captain of the Gettysburg to kill Kilrathi civilians. This action was condemned by Confed High Command. Had it been a matter of government policy, as Quarto seems to maintain, the incident would have been either pardoned or praised. I submit that Vukar does not qualify as an atrocity.
Click to expand...


Of course that were things similar to Gettyburg incident, ConFed is not going to put "Last night 10000 Kilrathi civilians were killed by a rogue pilot that fired on a evactuation shuttle.....", its bad to moral to know that there is little diference bettew the Kilrahi and Humans.
Just because we did not hear about it does not mean that it did not happen.
[/B][/QUOTE]
 
You're missing the point, Dragon. Quarto was saying that the Cats and Confed were the same, that Confed was just as bad as the Emperor. I was simply pointing out differences in the two, that show unequivocally that Confed was better than the Emperor. I'm not denying that incidents similar to the Gettysburg incident happened, if you look at a few of my previous posts, I have in fact said that such things undoubtably happened. They were not sanctioned by Confed, however. Otherwise, why would they have condemned the captain of the Gettysburg?
 
I belive that Quarto is not praising the good of the war time Kilrahi political system and society, he is just saying that Kilrathi and Humans are similar races, both capable of good and of evil.
After the war was over (most of) the Kilrathi live in peace with the other races.
 
Fenris: You are forgetting a HUGE attrocity that confed committed, does the detruction of KILRAH jog your memory at all? that was a pretty huge attrocity, killing countless billions of civilians, if that isn't an attrocity I cannot think of what is
 
Sorry Napoleon but ConFed did not have a choise on that one, if they did not do that, Humans would either be slaves or dead.
 
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