Here`s a new one.

[Mad Hatter]

I don`t think that could happen. Kilrathi and Humans do have some things in common, and although their mentality is somewhat different, there are still a lot of similarities.
Bugs, however are totally different. We have absolutly nothing in common, except for maybe hating Kilrathi. I don`t see how anyone could sympathize with the bugs, probably even for their sheer ugliness alone. They are supposed to be the ultimate evil.

 

[Vondoom]

Also don't forget that CR has nothing to do with Prophecy or anything else WC anymore.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Earthworm]

I think all of you are forgetting a very important detail. The traitor plot wasn’t really developed until WC4. In WC3 Hobes just killed Cobra and run away, tis all laddies, And in WC2, Jazz was a traitor, but his betrayal wasn’t really explored either. It was because of him that the Claw was destroyed and Blair was blamed for it, but than you just killed him and were done with it. Meanwhile, WC4 was centered around the betrayal, the conflict between Tolwyn and the BW. So, in the previous games we had traitors, but it wasn’t until WC4 that we really got a traitor plot.

 

[Vondoom]

Semantics Earthworm, semantics. They still overused a traitor as a plot device. WC4 did do a fantastic job of it, though.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Wedge009]

Well, it might have been overworked, but are there any ideas for a plot without a traitor?

I think this post will make me a captain. Yipee!

 

[Earthworm]

Well, ironically Vondoom, the games with traitors are considered to be the best in the series.

So apparantly most people didn't agree with you.

I don't think they overused it becuase there wasn't much done with it in the games before WC4, so there wasn't nothing to overuse.

 

[Dralthi5]

Never mind what I just posted. Non-sensical ravings...


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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited October 19, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Well, considering that there's no such thing as war without traitors or spies, you can never overuse the traitor subplot.

 

[Vondoom]

Earthworm, Earthworm, did I say the GAMES were bad? Did I say the overall stories were bad? No, I didn't say any of these but I still apparently confused you somehow. My ranking for WC games goes like this: WC2, WC4 (or vice versa - they flipflop alot for me), WC3, WC1, Prophecy. All I said was the traitor subplot was used too much. And Quarto there are tons of storylines in the WCU that don't require traitors. The Kilrahti are interesting enough that one is not required. The only one in which it was really used effectivly was WC4 anyway. There are no real good reasons for the traitors in any of the other games.

------------------
There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Dralthi5]

Well, WC2's traitor plot worked well, I think. WC3's was kind of unneccessary, though, IMO.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Wolf Dog]

In WC3 I think it was essential. The best thing about WC3 is how it captures the desperation of fighting a losing fight, largly because the Behemoth, the last chance to win the war outright, is destroyed because of a traitor. Had there been no traitor, the Kilrathi would have been caught off guard by the Behemoth, it would have succeeded, and the game would have lost a lot of its appeal.

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm, Earthworm, did I say the GAMES were bad? Did I say the overall stories were bad? No, I didn't say any of these but I still apparently confused you somehow.

Vondoom, Vondoom, did I say that you said all those things?

The point is that most people thing traitors weren't overused because of the popularity of those games.

The Kilrahti are interesting enough that one is not required. The only one in which it was really used effectivly was WC4 anyway. There are no real good reasons for the traitors in any of the other games.

Yes, there's tons of reasons. The Kilrathi captured many, many people. Some of them would definetly spy for them just to save their lives.

 

[Vondoom]

Of course Earthworm, people thought "You know, if it wasn't for that traitor plot, this game would have sucked." The reason they were so popular is because they were so different from everything out there and were wonderful games. Saying that they were popular because of the traitor plot is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I will agree (which is what makes me reasonable) that there are good reasons but they could easily write stories that didn't need to rely on the traitor subplot.

Wolf Dog: Actually I thought if the Behemoth would have been destroyed because of superior firepower agaisnt an unfinished product would have made the war feel much more desperate than by requiring a traitor for it to happen.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Quarto]

Like I said, Vondoom, there probably has never been a real life conflict without spies and/or traitors. So how can you have too much of it?

BTW, technically Tolwyn wasn't a traitor in WC4... Blair was

.

 

[Earthworm]

Saying that they were popular because of the traitor plot is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

I didn't say that. I said that they weren't unpopular even though they suposedly had an overused plot. If people really thought that it was overused the games wouldn't sell as well.

 

[Vondoom]

WC isn't real life Quarto. And just because it happens in real life doesn't mean it makes it a good story or that it cannot be overused in a story. WC is a story. Therefore it can be overused. Because it isn't real. It's a story.

Earthworm: WC sold games because of its gameplay far more than its story. The story is why people like us still care about it and why it isn't already forgotten like most other games that sell well but have nothing that make them special. If WC's gameplay had sucked, then I wouldn't have bought them. The storyline is always secondary to the gameplay (except for WC4 but the gameplay was still good at least).

What is it with people who cannot bring themselves to say anything bad about something. You can be a ST fan and dislike certain elements. You can be a SW fan and dislike certain elements. And you can be a WC fan and dislike certain elements. Being a fan does not mean saying that all things WC are perfect and good. And acting like they are is even sillier. I mean if you don't think its (the traitor subplot that is) is overused, that's fine. Just don't be saying that because you can't say anything negative about WC though.

Oh and Blair never betrayed Confed... Tolwyn did. Blair never stopped serving Confed in his heart and its ideals during the whole game. Towlyn betrayed everything that Confed stood for.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

[This message has been edited by Vondoom (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm: WC sold games because of its gameplay far more than its story. The story is why people like us still care about it and why it isn't already forgotten like most other games that sell well but have nothing that make them special.

I care to disagree. WC story was one of the main reasons for its popularity. At the time of WC1 barely any games had a story, certainly very few space sims, by the WC2 time only few games had a story that well developed, and with speach. By the WC3 time almost not games had such a well developed story that was presented with real live actors. Nothing at that time could compare.

If WC's gameplay had sucked, then I wouldn't have bought them.

I know of several people that don't like the gameplay all that much, but just love the story of WC. Prophecy has goten a lot of bad reviews, and rants from gamers because it's story wasn't up to the standards set by WC3/WC4, and even WC2. But it's gameplay was superior to the previous WC's, except the AI.

The storyline is always secondary to the gameplay (except for WC4 but the gameplay was still good at least).

Well, I completly disagree with you here. Storyline is of the same importance as gameplay to me. Sure, some simple, kill everything in sight games with no story can be found sometimes, but when I'm looking for a game I can play time and time again without geting bored I definetly need a well developed storyline.

Being a fan does not mean saying that all things WC are perfect and good.

Oh, I can name tons of things that could have been done better in the games, novels, or the movie. But even with it's flaws WC is the best.

And acting like they are is even sillier. I mean if you don't think its (the traitor subplot that is) is overused, that's fine. Just don't be saying that because you can't say anything negative about WC though.

Oh, I have my reasons for saying that. But if you want to hear me saying something negative about WC... Privateer could have used some major improvements (much better story, better mission design, more ships/weapons/stuff to sell), the movie is a slightly above average sci fi movie, Prophecy's plot is much worse than WC4, the AI in Priv, and Priv2 sucks ass, and AI in Prophecy isn't much better.

There, happy now?

Oh and Blair never betrayed Confed... Tolwyn did. Blair never stopped serving Confed in his heart and its ideals during the whole game. Towlyn betrayed everything that Confed stood for.

Oh, Blair betrayed Confed all right. If serving Confed by heart is what you want though, Tolwyn was the most loyal officer in the Confederation.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

[Vondoom]

WC's story is one of the reasons for its popularity. So was its fast paced gameplay. When WC came out tons of games had deep storylines (not that WC1 had too deep of one though its two addons did) though it was the first space sim to have one. WC2's story was well developed but there were still games before it that had deep storylines (again though, not in the space sim market) and its speech was popular because the sound card market was just beginning to blossom (Mainly thanks to the WC games) but the speech was not anything to write home about. WC3 was not the first game by any means to have live actors in a computer game though. Though the quality of actors was most certainly above what most other games had at the time. As for the gameplay, WC could have had the greatest storyline of all time, but if it wasn't fun to play, no one would have bought it. The single biggest complaint in fact by most fans was that there was too much story and not enough gameplay by WC4. And I again have to laugh at your saying Prophecy had better gameplay. Let's see, less mission variety and much worse AI (and good AI can make or break a game) makes for superior gameplay???? Not in my universe.

Don't get me wrong about the storyline now. Storyline is very important to me. But no one would pay to suffer through a bad game for its plot.

And so Confed was for creating GE soldiers who would go out and slaughter innocent people so they could create a social darwinism????? Hmmm, never read that anywhere. So our military would be doing us the greatest honor if they would go out and constantly fight wars and slughter people and weed out the "genetically" weak. The heart of confederation is honor and duty. And Tolwyn did not honor the people who he was supposed to be serving and he turned against his duty to protect the people when he began to wage his genetic and doctrinal war. Blair honered the Confederation by fighting against that which would dishonor it. Blair defected from Tolwyn, not Confed. Tolwyn betrayed the people of the Confederation, not Blair. The military exists to protect the people. And Blair protected them. Tolwyn, who was "the most loyal officer in the Confederation" slaughtered those he had sworn to protect because they were genetically unfit. Hitler tried that too, if I recall. I guess he was the most loyal person in the German government. Before WC4, I might have agreed with you Earthworm. But Tolwyn became as bad as any Nazi. The cost for winning can become too high. And unfortuantly, Tolwyn paid that price.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Earthworm]

When WC came out tons of games had deep storylines (not that WC1 had too deep of one though its two addons did) though it was the first space sim to have one.

It's story was pretty deap, for any genre at that time except RPG's maybe.

. WC3 was not the first game by any means to have live actors in a computer game though. Though the quality of actors was most certainly above what most other games had at the time.

No, it definetly wasn't the first. But no other game made a use of the cutscenes as well as it did. Like you said, the quality of the cutscenes was well above anything else at that time.

As for the gameplay, WC could have had the greatest storyline of all time, but if it wasn't fun to play, no one would have bought it.

And it could have the best gameplay ever, but without a descent story it would suck.

The single biggest complaint in fact by most fans was that there was too much story and not enough gameplay by WC4.

Yeah, and I can remember those same people bitching that Prophecy didn't have enough movies.

And I again have to laugh at your saying Prophecy had better gameplay. Let's see, less mission variety and much worse AI (and good AI can make or break a game) makes for superior gameplay???? Not in my universe.

The mission variety isn't that much smaller, and the AI isn't that much worse. In adition, the new engine allows for much more ships on the screen with a very smooth gampeplay, there are more ships and weapons available, taking out capships is more interesting because of taking out components individually, and the action overall has a faster pace.

Don't get me wrong about the storyline now. Storyline is very important to me. But no one would pay to suffer through a bad game for its plot.

Just as I wouldn't want to suffer through a WC game with no storyline (thing FS, with even less story - scarry)

I think that you're missing my entire point about Tolwyn. Everything he did, slaughtering incoent people, the GE project, was all for the good of the Confederation. In his mind, heart, all that was supposed to help the Confederation in the long run. Therefore, if we use your logic that someone who stays loyal by heart, is still loyal, Tolwyn was the best damn Admiral in the Confed fleet. Also, if you read the WC4 novel, you'll find out that Tolwyn DIDN'T want to kill all those people, but he felt like it was the only way. Later in the novel when he was already after trial, he was thinking to himself that he rushed with the entire project, and that killing off inocent people wasn't necessary.

Now, of course nothing can justify what he did, but comparing him to someone like Hitler isn't exactly correct.




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Nonetheless, Vondoom, Blair shot and killed many Confed pilots. He was a traitor, though events of course proved his choice to be the honourable one.
Treason, at any rate, is defined by law, not honour. If an American pilot decided to fill up his F-15 with medical supplies and then land in Iraq, there wouldn't be many in the US who would hesitate to label him a traitor - even though he would thus demonstrate that he fights "for peace and honour".