Hakaga/Vesuvius/Midway Comparisons

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Hakaga/Vesuivus/Midway Comparisons

...Again, my long-winded posts have been caught by a pesky thing called a 10,000 word limit.


MIDWAY CLASS
Length: 1,830 meters
Mass: 200,000 metric tonnes
Top Speed: 80 kps
YPR: 5/5/5 DPS
Shields
Phase Shields
Armor
2,000 cm
Weapons
Laser Turrets (25)
Missile Launchers (6)
Capship Missile Launcher (?)
Fighter Compliment 252

BIO The Midway was devised as a self-sustaining carrier which could also be used for peace-time roles as well. The ship was designed with all military roles in mind, with some peace-time roles. The ship would fulfill it's carrier role with it's large fighter compliment of 252. It also is fitted with a science division onboard to help solve planetary problems, or to help analyze some new technology. It is also fitted with a new jump-drive which not only gets around it's large size and mass, but also enables the ship to traverse jump-points which normally would not be accessable to a vessel of her size and mass. Midway is also fitted with a very advanced fighter launch and retrieval system which consists of the fighters stored within the Midway, with two receiving bays and six launch tubes bridged by an arterial network. Fighters can be taken and loaded into any of the six-launch tubes and be sent out into space. As long as one of those 6 tubes remains clear, the ship can continue to launch fighters. The ship can also carry large marine landing shuttles which are of a much greater size than previous designs.

Advantages
Self-sufficient The ship is capable of running independantly of a CVBG meaning escort ships could be used elsewhere
Versatile The ship was designed with not just military roles in mind and carries a full science division onboard.
Mobile The ship is not limited by the jump-node constraints which previously plagued large ships.
Launch Configuration The Midway has a unique launch and retrieval system for fighters. There are two landing bays which enable the ship to take on fighters. As long as one bay remains operational, they can continue to land fighters. The fighters are routed from the hangars through an arterial-network which leads to 6-launch tubes. As long as one tube remains operational and clear, they can continue to launch fighters.
Missile Launchers Midway is fitted with 6 missile launch turrets which enable them to take out fighters.

Disadvantages
Slow The Midway is not the slowest of the three, but she's not too far away. Only 80 kps ramscoops open. No excuses here considering the Midway is lighter than the Vesuvius and Hakaga's and has the privelage of being designed with more advanced technology than the other ships having been designed years after the Vesuvius-class set sail.
Armor Lightest armor of the 3 supercarriers. In fact it's armor is lighter than some of the capships of the era. The Murphy-Class destroyer has 500 cm more armor for example. The Plunketts have 800 to 1,300 cm more at most.
Fighter-Compliment 252's a lot, and it can most certainly carry more considering the size of those new Hercules LC's. Still the Vesuvius' fighter compliment was far more impressive considering it was carrying larger 2650's and 2670's era's fighters.
Anti-Capship Capability It has CSM launchers, but those types of missiles are ancient, and have been plagued with the problems of being shot down. Still, they do a decent job when they hit. But they're fairly easy to shoot down, being rather unmaneuverable.
Missile-Defensive The missiles were designed predominantly to shoot down fighters. I'm not certain how well they work on torpedoes. I'm not certain how fast they fire either or if they're as good as the Gatling-Launch systems mounted on the Hakaga-Class.


IN CONCLUSION
There are 3 supercarriers in Wing Commander, and they each have their own strong points, and their own weak-points.

The Hakaga was best equipped in its era for shear-firepower and fighter-carrying capacity. It's armored engines, and self-contained flight bays gave it an excellent degree of survivability. It's defensive armament was also impressive, and it's gatling-launch tubes made torpedo runs nearly impossible.

The Vesuvius had by far the best fighter compliment of the three-- an astounding 400 fighters, and also had excellent anti-capship capability on it's own-- at least two torpedo tubes, and 14 anti-matter guns. It's shields, and armor are unrivalable. It's the fastest of the three, and it's maneuverability is unparalleled.

The Midway was built more like a flying starbase with the greatest degree of self-sufficiency. It also had some versatility that the other's did not, having been built for more than just military roles. The ship contains a science-division onboard to help solve civilian and planetary problems, but can also use this science division to even analyze alien technology. It also has a unique launch and retrieval system which makes it difficult to disable flight operations. It, despite being the largest of the three, had a new jump-engine which enabled it to use jump-points which normally could not be utilized because of the Midway's size. It also possessed at least one capship-missile launcher giving it an anti-capship capability. It also carried a marine-division onboard.

The Hakaga's weak points was it's unbelievably slow speed, at only 30 kps. It also lacked major anti-capship capability, lacking any torpedo tubes or Anti-Matter Guns.

The Vesuvius's weak point lied on the fact that it's single launch bay was unshielded and vulnerable to attack. The fact that the armor on the flight-deck was not resistant to the flash-pack and fairly thin. It also lacked the heavy torpedo-defense the Hakaga's possessed. Vesuvii suffered the same problems that all large ships faced, which include the Hakaga-Class, when it came to making jumps. Some jump-nodes simply cannot accomodate a ship of that mass and size even if the jump-drives can support the ships mass and completely encompass the ship. This limited the Vesuvius' mobility to certain jump-points.

The Midway's weak points lied in its speed which is nothing short of pathetic, it's light armor, which is also pathetic. It also lacks AMG's or any form of phase-shield penetrating gun. It's only capship killing capability lies in CSM's which are old, and easy to shoot down.


*Note 1: I listed the ships maneuverability as 3/3/3 because it's nearly twice the size of the Confederation class, but it's not quite twice the size, so I decided on 3 instead of 2.5. Bandit (LOAF)'s 5/5/5 figure is made up since all capships seem to have that maneuverability.

*Note 2: I list the Vesuvius's top speed as "at least 150 kps" because it was outrunning Intrepid in the novel. I clocked the Intrepid doing 144 at least once, which means it probably isn't at top speed, and a 6 kps closure rate is not consistent with the novel's descriptions of the Vesuivus overtaking them.

*Note 3: I listed the Vesuvius' maneuverability as "at least 6/6/6 DPS" because in the game it does appear to move far more than that despite the movie scene. Additionally, Hawk's comments about the Vesuvius' speed and maneuverability making them look like their standing still do not appear consistent with a ship which only outmaneuvers them by a single degree per second.

-Concordia
 
I finally felt like listing all the data I know on the large carriers in the Wing Commander games and novels and list the advantages, disadvantages of each one.

HAKAGA CLASS
Length: 1,580 meters
Mass: 500,000 tonnes
Top Speed: 30 kps
YPR: 3/3/3 DPS* [see note]
Shields
Phase Shields
Armor
3,000 cm.
Weapons
Quad-Mass Driver Batteries (32)
Neutron Batteries (16)
Laser Batteries (16)
Gatling-Launch Tubes (6)
Fighter Compliment (288)

BIO: Began design in 2663 in the Hari-sector, a series of 12 new carriers, that would be roughly twice the size of the current Kilrathi fleet-carrier. The design featured many new features for a capship, which most importantly featured a new jump-drive which enabled it to jump despite it's large size and mass. It also featured 3-concentric belts of armor and even shields powerful enough to repulse torpedoes. It's engines were buried approximately 50 meters in the hull and exited through armor-clad nozzles, which even featured blast doors to protect the engine itself in the event of a strike-- these doors could also be blown away should the doors be immobilized by the impact. It also features a unique launch-bay arrangement, featuring 3 landing bays, and three launch bays in which each are armor-clad and self contained with access corridors connecting one to the other should one bay be destroyed, they can route all the fighters in that bay to another, enabling them to keep launching and receiving fighters as long as they can keep the launch bays or landing bay clear (respectively). These carriers carry a heavy armament consisting of 6 gatling launch tubes which enable them to fire large amounts of missiles at torpedoes (or even fighters) rapidly, 32 quadruple-barreled mass-driver guns, 32 lasers and neutron guns (either 32 of each, or 16 of each totalling to 32-- in the book it's not clear it saids 4 eights neutron guns and laser guns) which made these ships well-defended.

Advantages
Most Turrets: The ship has 64 guns on it's hull! And these aren't light guns either, these are quadruple barreled mass-drivers and turret-neutron cannons and heavy-lasers. Try doing a torpedo run agains this sucker. Most of the bombers will be gone before they even get a lock
Gatling Launch Tubes: 6 of them is a lot. Especially when each can fire a whole wave of them in a few seconds. Makes torpedo runs nearly impossible, combined with all it's other guns too.
Flight-Deck Arrangement Having each launch bay self contained, and having 3 launch bays and 3 landing bays makes it difficult to disrupt flight ops. Access corridors enable fighters to be shifted from the landing bay to the launch bay, or from one bay to another should one get damaged.
Armor 3,000 centimeters of armor is a LOT. Having the armor arranged in 3 belts mean that even if one layer is breached there's another layer below that can take the damage.
Nozzles The engines are armored as well-- and they're buried 50 meters in. Something comes their way, that engine's throttled down, a blast-door covers up the exhaust duct. After impact, they simply open the door up, or just blast it off into space, and then power the engine up again.
Fighter Compliment It's more than two times what the Confederation-Class Heavy Carriers carry, and 3 times the capacity of the Concordia-Class carriers.

Disadvantages
Slow Man are these ships slow. Scoops closed they only do 30 kps, and judging by this, they probably have lousy acceleration as well.
Capship-Capability I guess the idea was to make them simply like carriers except much bigger and with lots of guns. Of course they don't have any AMG's on them, which are capable of penetrating capship phase-shields. This means that only their fighters and bombers are used to take-out capships.


VESUVIUS CLASS
Length: 1,600 meters
Mass: 250,000 tonnes
Top Speed: at least 150 kps
Max YPR: at least 6/6/6 DPS
Shields
Phase Shields
Armor
4,000 cm
Weapons
Dual Laser Turrets (24)
Single Mass-Driver Turrets (16)
Dual Anti-Matter Gun (14)
Torpedo Tubes (2+)
Fighter Compliment (400)

BIO The Vesuvius was conceived as a result of the Battle of Terra. The Vesuvius-Design committee began construction of the supercarrier in Early-2670 using a new construction technique which involved foundry ships and a rapidly constructed ship-yard. Much technology learned from the Hakaga-Class was used on the Vesuvius class. The Vesuvius was fitted with a newer jump-drive which would enable it to jump it's large frame across hyperspace. To shorten development time, the Vesuvius was built with a single flight deck instead of the initially planned two, and the ship was also built somewhat, which of many things would shave off mass requiring a less powerful jump-drive. The ship would also be designed to take capships on directly, being fitted with Anti-Matter Guns, and torpedo tubes. It also would be fitted with anti-fighter defenses consisting of 16 mass-driver turrets, and 24 dual-laser cannons. Vesuvius would also possess improved armor featuring a new superalloy which would in addition to making it unbelievably sturdy, would also make it immune to the Flash-Pak atmospheric ignition device. The supercarrier would carry 400 fighters, from those as small as an Epee, to as large as the Dragon, in addition to Marine LC's. The Vesuvius would make up for any short-comings it had in its standard flight-deck arrangement with increased speed and maneuverability.

Advantages
Most Armor These ships have the heaviest armor of all the supercarriers. 4,000 centimeters of armor even has the Hakaga beat.
Fast The ship is faster than most capital ships its size. In fact it's faster than some smaller capships.
Maneuverable The ship has unbelievable maneuverability. While its stats list 6/6/6 as it's capabilities, there have been recorded footage of these ships in combat which do appear to show it maneuvering faster than that. Even with a maneuverability of 6/6/6 it is far more maneuverable than other vessels her size.
Anti-Capship Capability It is actually designed to take capships on and come out victorious. It is fitted with a minimum of two torpedo tubes, which used in conjunction with 14 AMG's can do heavy damage.
Heavy Shields Vesuvius-class vessels were fitted with a high technology phase-shielding which are even harder to penetrate than the Hakaga's, even torpedoes have trouble getting through the phase shielding. Combine this with the ships heavy armor, and these supercarriers are remarkably difficult to take out.
Excellent Acceleration With their speed comes excellent acceleration far above that of most vessels her size.
Fighter Capacity The Vesuvius class vessels have the highest fighter capacity of all the supercarriers, with 400 fighter strong compliment, combined with marine LC's makes for serious trouble if you happen to be opposing this ship.

Disadvantages
Flight-Deck The single flight deck is armored, but not as well, and not with the same alloy as the rest of the ships skin. This makes it vulnerable to a flash-pak attack. Also on a less severe note, a brave pilot can fly through the deck and shoot all the fighter craft in sight. Generally speaking, the shields are weak where the flight deck is meaning that this is a definete weak-spot.
No Missile-Defense The Vesuvius is not equipped with any missile-defense system. Four gatling-launch tubes would really enhance this ships survivability.
Sheer-Size Vesuvius suffers from the problem dealing with the fact that not all jump nodes are capable of taking the strain of a 250,000 ton object transitioning through them. Jump nodes often are not capable of accomodating large vessels through them as well. This limits Vesuvius's ability to certain jump-points.
Cost These ships use state-of-the-art technology to build them. They were also built in a rush using very expensive technology. The ships COULD have been built using an ordinary ship-yard, but it would have taken considerably longer to get them online.

(To be continued)
 
BIO: Began design in 2663 in the Hari-sector,

The prologue to Fleet Action takes place in 2668, and places the beginning of the *production* portion of the Hakaga programme at 'over six years ago'. Which would be 2661 or 2662.

(either 32 of each, or 16 of each totalling to 32-- in the book it's not clear it saids 4 eights neutron guns and laser guns)

It's quite clear that it's 16 of each -- as the book lists that "defense capabilities include four eights of mass driver quad batteries, four eights of neutron and laser batteries,". If it meant 32 of each, the sentence would make no sense... as it would either list each seperately or list the 32 only once. ("four eights of mass drivers, neutrons and lasers" could mean 32 of each or 32 total... "four eights of mass drivers and four eights of mass drivers and lasers" cannot.)

Fighter Compliment It's more than two times what the Confederation-Class Heavy Carriers carry, and 3 times the capacity of the Concordia-Class carriers.

Dreadnought, not heavy carrier.

Max YPR: at least 6/6/6 DPS
Torpedo Tubes (2+)

Get over it.

The Vesuvius was fitted with a newer jump-drive which would enable it to jump it's large frame across hyperspace.

Once again, this *simply isn't true*, as we see the Vesuvius' limitations in WC4.

To shorten development time, the Vesuvius was built with a single flight deck instead of the initially planned two

The Vesuvius has two flight decks, one on each side. You have a remarkable ability not to understand what a flight deck is.

Capship Missile Launcher (?)

Six.

Fighter-Compliment 252's a lot, and it can most certainly carry more considering the size of those new Hercules LC's.

The LC's are launched from the 'landing' bays in the back. They're not like fighters.

Missile-Defensive The missiles were designed predominantly to shoot down fighters. I'm not certain how well they work on torpedoes. I'm not certain how fast they fire either or if they're as good as the Gatling-Launch systems mounted on the Hakaga-Class.

Stats are in the Prophecy Guide.

There are 3 supercarriers in Wing Commander, and they each have their own strong points, and their own weak-points.

*Five* ships are classified as 'heavy carriers' ('supercarrier' isn't a real designation). The three you've listed, the Confed Lexington class and the Kilrathi Bhantkara class.

The Midway's weak points lied in its speed which is nothing short of pathetic, it's light armor, which is also pathetic.

Speed with 'scoops open' really isn't particularly important for a support ship.

It also lacks AMG's or any form of phase-shield penetrating gun. It's only capship killing capability lies in CSM's which are old, and easy to shoot down.

It mounts heavy ion turrets for defense against other capital ships. Mentioned in the ICIS manual.

*Note 1: I listed the ships maneuverability as 3/3/3 because it's nearly twice the size of the Confederation class, but it's not quite twice the size, so I decided on 3 instead of 2.5. Bandit (LOAF)'s 5/5/5 figure is made up since all capships seem to have that maneuverability.

Erm, it's not so random: all the contemporary *Kilrathi* ships have the same value -- including their 22 kilometer dreadnought.

*Note 2: I list the Vesuvius's top speed as "at least 150 kps" because it was outrunning Intrepid in the novel. I clocked the Intrepid doing 144 at least once, which means it probably isn't at top speed, and a 6 kps closure rate is not consistent with the novel's descriptions of the Vesuivus overtaking them.

So... what you're saying here is that you *measured* the speeds... and the Vesuvius was *faster* (150>144)... but you're still right because it can 'probably' go faster. Get freaking over it.

*Note 3: I listed the Vesuvius' maneuverability as "at least 6/6/6 DPS" because in the game it does appear to move far more than that despite the movie scene. Additionally, Hawk's comments about the Vesuvius' speed and maneuverability making them look like their standing still do not appear consistent with a ship which only outmaneuvers them by a single degree per second.

Yes, they do. We've measured it. "I wish it was better" doesn't mean anything.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


The prologue to Fleet Action takes place in 2668, and places the beginning of the *production* portion of the Hakaga programme at 'over six years ago'. Which would be 2661 or 2662.

Well it does say on the cover of Fleet Action (in the back actually) that the Kilrathi was working on a secret fleet for the past five years. That's where I derived the stat from.



It's quite clear that it's 16 of each -- as the book lists that "defense capabilities include four eights of mass driver quad batteries, four eights of neutron and laser batteries,". If it meant 32 of each, the sentence would make no sense... as it would either list each seperately or list the 32 only once. ("four eights of mass drivers, neutrons and lasers" could mean 32 of each or 32 total... "four eights of mass drivers and four eights of mass drivers and lasers" cannot.)

Okay

Dreadnought, not heavy carrier.

Actually they were referred to as being heavy carriers more than once.

Get over it.

Have you ever seen a submarine's torpedo room? Even one room can have multiple tubes. Since you said you only listed two because it only fired two... I'm saying "at least 2"


Once again, this *simply isn't true*, as we see the Vesuvius' limitations in WC4.

Bandit, I explained quite clearly that the Hakaga mods were designed SIMPLY to enable the ships to jump. The jump drives before that could not jump a ship above a certain mass PERIOD. It doesn't matter at all what the size of the jump node is, it can't jump because it can't transition all it's mass if all the mass isn't in the JUMP FIELD. Apparently there is ALSO a limit on the size of the jump node as well. Even if you have a ship that can jump itself across, if the node is too small, it still won't work. Read the Confed Handbook through on the jump-drive thing. It's listed in there.



The Vesuvius has two flight decks, one on each side. You have a remarkable ability not to understand what a flight deck is.

A modern carrier has 4 catapults, and yet it is only said to have one flight deck. You were previously talking about BAYS. This is different.



I was using the https://www.wcnews.com/ships site actually. If they omit data, I'm not able to use it am I?


The LC's are launched from the 'landing' bays in the back. They're not like fighters.

I knew they didn't go out the tubes! That I could gather, I actually didn't know where they launched from.

Stats are in the Prophecy Guide.

As I specifically said, I was using the stats from the https://www.wcnews.com/ships site. If any stats are wrong, I'm sorry, but you know why.

*Five* ships are classified as 'heavy carriers' ('supercarrier' isn't a real designation). The three you've listed, the Confed Lexington class and the Kilrathi Bhantkara class.

Okay. I didn't know Bhantkara was listed as a heavy. In that case wouldn't the Concordia-Class be listed as heavy too?

Speed with 'scoops open' really isn't particularly important for a support ship.

Yes, but in the game it is because that's the only speed you see. You never get to see the ships scoops closed.

It mounts heavy ion turrets for defense against other capital ships. Mentioned in the ICIS manual.

Read all previous messages which regarded discrepancies in ships stats. I'm getting tired of typing that URL in over and over again.

Erm, it's not so random: all the contemporary *Kilrathi* ships have the same value -- including their 22 kilometer dreadnought.

Actually the stats from the WC3 book (the one that listed the Frigate as being 620 meters) listed the Dreadnought as having a maneuverability of 1/1/1 DPS. Why it's listed as 5/5/5 in your ships database is beyond me.

So... what you're saying here is that you *measured* the speeds... and the Vesuvius was *faster* (150>144)... but you're still right because it can 'probably' go faster. Get freaking over it.

The novel seemed to suggest that the Vesuvius was RAPIDLY overtaking them. 6 KPS is NOT rapidly overtaking.


Yes, they do. We've measured it. "I wish it was better" doesn't mean anything.

I'm not saying "I wish it was better" I'm saying that the game stats don't comply with the novel-stats, or even with the FMV stats.

-Concordia
 
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Well it does say on the cover of Fleet Action (in the back actually) that the Kilrathi was working on a secret fleet for the past five years. That's where I derived the stat from.

In the prologue, Jukaga claims that Thrakhath began diverting transports to the project 'over six years ago'.

Actually they were referred to as being heavy carriers more than once.

Although I'm fairly sure that's not true (a quick text search of FA and ER reveals only one *possible* instance of this -- Jameson claiming that if there's a war Tolwyn will be 'safe in his heavy carrier'), the fact that it's listed as a dreadnought in Joan's Fighting Ships is pretty much the end-all for this fact.

Have you ever seen a submarine's torpedo room? Even one room can have multiple tubes. Since you said you only listed two because it only fired two... I'm saying "at least 2"

But you could say this about *any* of its weapons. It's just a meaningless and seemingly petty ('I was wrong but won't admit it!') notation.

Bandit, I explained quite clearly that the Hakaga mods were designed SIMPLY to enable the ships to jump. The jump drives before that could not jump a ship above a certain mass PERIOD. It doesn't matter at all what the size of the jump node is, it can't jump because it can't transition all it's mass if all the mass isn't in the JUMP FIELD. Apparently there is ALSO a limit on the size of the jump node as well. Even if you have a ship that can jump itself across, if the node is too small, it still won't work. Read the Confed Handbook through on the jump-drive thing. It's listed in there.

But this is all a crazy theory YOU MADE UP. None of this is *ever* stated about the Vesuvius. All we know is that the Hakaga has the capacity to use any jump point (thanks to its technology) and that the Vesuvius *doesn't*. There is no need (or ability) to create crazy theories as to why the Vesuvius *secretly* has this technology.

Before the Hakaga, ships were limited (to certain, larger jump points) because they were too large and/or too massive to go through a jump point. The Hakaga eliminated this. The Vesuvius does not.

A modern carrier has 4 catapults, and yet it is only said to have one flight deck. You were previously talking about BAYS. This is different.

It's *not* different -- the Vesuvius has two bays with corresponding catapults. It fits the WC universes definition of having 'two flight decks'.

I was using the https://www.wcnews.com/ships site actually. If they omit data, I'm not able to use it am I?

I have nothing to do with the ships database at this time. A lot of it is inaccurate.

As I specifically said, I was using the stats from the https://www.wcnews.com/ships site. If any stats are wrong, I'm sorry, but you know why.

Erm, although I appreciate your desperate need to blame your lack of information on something else, what you claimed was that you didn't *have* the stats for the weapon -- not that you had the *wrong* stats. You didn't have the stats and I told you where you could find them...

Okay. I didn't know Bhantkara was listed as a heavy. In that case wouldn't the Concordia-Class be listed as heavy too?

No, the Concordia class is a plain fleet carrier. Read False Colors for more information on the Bhantkara's abilities and history.

Read all previous messages which regarded discrepancies in ships stats. I'm getting tired of typing that URL in over and over again.

If you don't want inaccurate information, don't use an inaccurate source.

Actually the stats from the WC3 book (the one that listed the Frigate as being 620 meters) listed the Dreadnought as having a maneuverability of 1/1/1 DPS. Why it's listed as 5/5/5 in your ships database is beyond me.

Once again, it's not *my* guide (with the exception of a few WC1 fighters that I recently redid... check out the Rapier II -- *that's* my work!)... regardless, there are a variety of different stat sets for the WC3 ships -- they change between the original Victory Streak, the KS Yearbook, the WC3 3DO Victory Streak and the (original) WC3 PSX manual. It's quite possible (and I can confirm/de-confirm) that the 5/5/5 for the dreadnaught appears in one (or several) of these.

The novel seemed to suggest that the Vesuvius was RAPIDLY overtaking them. 6 KPS is NOT rapidly overtaking.

Must we go through this *AGAIN*? As I pointed out in your initial thread, any capital ship chase would occur with *SCOOPS CLOSED*!

I'm not saying "I wish it was better" I'm saying that the game stats don't comply with the novel-stats, or even with the FMV stats.

I already explained to you exactly why this is at the Aces Board, though.
 
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Yes, but a carrier is *not* a submarine. And LOAF's stats work more akin to military inteligence than fanfic stuff like you want. If the military sees a new enemy sub (since you like the comparison), but can't distinguish the tubes, does it *make up* a number? No. Okay, then what if the sub fires two torps at the same time? Does that mean there are only two tubes? No. Can you guess the total ammount from that? No. So LOAF's stats are *confirmed* stats. Meaning this is what we're sure of. We know for a fact that the Vesuvii class ships have at least two tubes. You get it now?
 
Originally posted by t.c.cgi
Yes, but a carrier is *not* a submarine. And LOAF's stats work more akin to military inteligence than fanfic stuff like you want. If the military sees a new enemy sub (since you like the comparison), but can't distinguish the tubes, does it *make up* a number? No. Okay, then what if the sub fires two torps at the same time? Does that mean there are only two tubes? No. Can you guess the total ammount from that? No. So LOAF's stats are *confirmed* stats. Meaning this is what we're sure of. We know for a fact that the Vesuvii class ships have at least two tubes. You get it now?

i agree with you but what it would put would be "at least 2" or "2 that we know of" it would simply say 2
 
Actually you could guess that there were at least 4 tubes, seeing as reloading a torpedod tubetakes a few minutes and no commander would want to be defenseless for that amount of time after putting launch transients in the water.

Unless he's just distracting you from the guy sneaking up behind you.
 
Originally posted by Ender
Actually you could guess that there were at least 4 tubes, seeing as reloading a torpedod tubetakes a few minutes and no commander would want to be defenseless for that amount of time after putting launch transients in the water.

Unless he's just distracting you from the guy sneaking up behind you.

Except here you're making several assumptions:

1) Time to reload torpedo tube: you're making the assumption that there are at least four tubes, because of the preconception that it takes 'several minutes' to reload a tube. This may not be true, due to technological changes or design concepts.

2) Lack of defensive measures without torpedos: military thinking here is assumed to have stayed the same throughout the centuries. What subs do not have are fighters that can, in small groups, take down other capships.

3) Number of torps that CAN be fired - you're assuming that one tube = one torpedo at a time. Is this really true?
 
Originally posted by Ender
Actually you could guess that there were at least 4 tubes, seeing as reloading a torpedod tubetakes a few minutes and no commander would want to be defenseless for that amount of time after putting launch transients in the water.

Unless he's just distracting you from the guy sneaking up behind you.

You could guess whatever you want. Guessing isn't proof.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


In the prologue, Jukaga claims that Thrakhath began diverting transports to the project 'over six years ago'.

True. Of course the transports were probably just constructing the ship-yard 6-years earlier. The ship's construction itself probably DID occur 5-years before FA.


Although I'm fairly sure that's not true (a quick text search of FA and ER reveals only one *possible* instance of this -- Jameson claiming that if there's a war Tolwyn will be 'safe in his heavy carrier'), the fact that it's listed as a dreadnought in Joan's Fighting Ships is pretty much the end-all for this fact.

Yeah, Jameson did refer to it as such. So a WC Dreadnought is like a Carrier, with the ability to take capships head-on combined with a big gun?

But you could say this about *any* of its weapons. It's just a meaningless and seemingly petty ('I was wrong but won't admit it!') notation.

No, because it is specifically said that it has 16 single mass-driver turrets, and 24-dual laser turrets. It never specifically says how many torpedoes.

But this is all a crazy theory YOU MADE UP. None of this is *ever* stated about the Vesuvius. All we know is that the Hakaga has the capacity to use any jump point (thanks to its technology) and that the Vesuvius *doesn't*. There is no need (or ability) to create crazy theories as to why the Vesuvius *secretly* has this technology.

Check the Confederation Handbook. Under Jump Theory.

I'll explain it really simple since It's obviously not going through...

-----Big Ships making Jumps made simple-----
1.) Take a ship. Let's make it 500 meters long.
2.) Surround the ship in a bubble. Let's give it a 500 meter radius from the center of the ship... that's a diameter of 1,000 meters.
3.) Now, let's say that bubble is the jump-field.
4.) Anything in that bubble jumps. Anything NOT in that bubble gets left behind.
5.) Since the bubble is only 1,000 meters in radius, it is prudent to make sure that the ship isn't bigger than the 1,000 meter bubble.
6.) Now let's look at the Hakaga. The hakaga is 1,580 meters long. That means about 2/3 of it is in the bubble, but the other 1/3 is not. This means that that 1/3 outside the bubble. That 1/3rd won't make the jump.
7.) The problem is that the bubble is very difficult to make it bigger than 1,000 meters because the particles which MAKE the bubble up will DECAY after that point. It can be increased to an extent, but the power-consumption is incredible.
8.) Now back to the Hakaga. They figured out a way to make the bubble really big without having to consume a whole lotta power to do it.
9.) The ship jumps beacause it's all in the jump field.

-----Jump Point Size made simple-----

1.) Take a ship, and give it a bubble. The bubble will symbolize the jump-field. Let's make the ship 500 meters and the bubble 1,000 meters in diameter.
2.) The ship jumps.
3.) Take a bigger ship and put it in a large bubble.
4.) Try to jump it.
5.) It goes through: whoohoo!

6.) Take the big ship and put it in a small jump-node
7.) Aww it don't fit. Even though the ship CAN jump itself, the jump node just ain't big enough to wedge the ship in! It can make a big bubble, but the bubble can't fit in the tunnel.

It was NEVER specifically said that the Hakaga could use any jump-point; it simply said they could jump themselves. And I don't even know what routes they used except their final route to Earth via Warsaw, and Sirius. In either case, the jump nodes out of Kilrah, and out of Earth are GIGANTIC and can accomodate large ships.

8.) Now enter the Midway. It not only is big, and can put a big bubble around it, but it can also somehow make itself fit through the tunnel.

9.) Ta-da! Midway jumps!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before the Hakaga, ships were limited (to certain, larger jump points) because they were too large and/or too massive to go through a jump point. The Hakaga eliminated this. The Vesuvius does not.

No... the larger ships could not jump PERIOD. The Hakaga simply enabled the larger ships to jump. That's it.

The Vesuvius had the same technology otherwise it couldn't even have jumped out of the Sol System.

Since when does it specifically say that the Hakaga can use ANY Jump-point?

It's *not* different -- the Vesuvius has two bays with corresponding catapults. It fits the WC universes definition of having 'two flight decks'.

Yeah, two BAYS, not flight decks. A flight deck is a flat surface where the flight ops operate off of. It doesn't have two runways. It has one big fat runway running straight through the ship.

I have nothing to do with the ships database at this time. A lot of it is inaccurate.

Well why don't they correct it then?

Erm, although I appreciate your desperate need to blame your lack of information on something else, what you claimed was that you didn't *have* the stats for the weapon -- not that you had the *wrong* stats. You didn't have the stats and I told you where you could find them...

Do you honestly expect me to scour the entire world wide web to find some stats? I thought the stats were good enough on that site.


No, the Concordia class is a plain fleet carrier. Read False Colors for more information on the Bhantkara's abilities and history.

The WC3 stats say it's comparable to the Light-Carrier...

Can you give me additional stats on the Bhantkara from the Novel?

If you don't want inaccurate information, don't use an inaccurate source.

I didn't *know* it was inaccurate!

Once again, it's not *my* guide (with the exception of a few WC1 fighters that I recently redid... check out the Rapier II -- *that's* my work!)... regardless, there are a variety of different stat sets for the WC3 ships -- they change between the original Victory Streak, the KS Yearbook, the WC3 3DO Victory Streak and the (original) WC3 PSX manual. It's quite possible (and I can confirm/de-confirm) that the 5/5/5 for the dreadnaught appears in one (or several) of these.

But not in all?

Must we go through this *AGAIN*? As I pointed out in your initial thread, any capital ship chase would occur with *SCOOPS CLOSED*!

But the Intrepid if it was doing 144 when I clocked it (so was Vesuvius by the way!), they have roughly the same speed, if their scoops are closed, they'd probably be just as fast.

I already explained to you exactly why this is at the Aces Board, though.

But the Vesuvius game stats comply with what Hawk said about the ships maneuverability and acceleration making them look like they're standing still. Vesuvius according to the turn-around scene, is only slightly more maneuverable than Intrepid.

-Concordia
 
I might argue properly tommorow about things, but I don't really want to deal with sources.

I will, however, point out that one's velocity depends entirely on acceleration when scoops are closed. If you find solid acceleration numbers, then you'll know which can outrun the other. Without these, you're really in the dark. They aren't neccessarily directly proportional to the top speed with scoops open, as we don't know how the surface area of the two ship's scoops compare.
 
Originally posted by Concordia

Yeah, Jameson did refer to it as such. So a WC Dreadnought is like a Carrier, with the ability to take capships head-on combined with a big gun?

No.
A WC Dreadnought (incidentally, the SM1 Sivar is a 'Dreadnaught', though whether that's important, I don't know) is pretty much a cap ship with a rather noteworthy armament - be it a single big gun (the Concordia), or a whole lot of regular guns (the WC3 Sivar).
They also happen to carry fighters, but that's probably because of the general utility of fighters.
Its probably worth noting that evidence suggests the Sivar in SM1 did not have any fighters, and many on this board believe that the wreckage was actually hauled back to Confed space in the hanger of the TC.
 
Wasn't Jameson a politician? Yes, they have a real good track record for knowing the ins and outs of the military.
 
No, because it is specifically said that it has 16 single mass-driver turrets, and 24-dual laser turrets. It never specifically says how many torpedoes.

No, these are all cases of 'at leasts'. The minimum amount of mass drivers it can have is sixteen. They could put a Vesuvius-class in Wing Commander 6 and it could have 30 mass drivers... and that'd be okay. But we have *absolutely no ability* to go 'Hey, I wish the Vesuvius had more weapons! Oh, it must!'.

Check the Confederation Handbook. Under Jump Theory.

I'll explain it really simple since It's obviously not going through...

I *understand* what the Confed Handbook says. I helped Philip Langdale come up with all that stuff years ago. I've written a nice FAQ that explains it all in more simple terms. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SAVE THAT IT IS THE BASIS FOR HOW SHIPS JUMP. I'm not sure why you're insisting that I 'don't get it'. The Hakaga has a device that allows it to use any jump point. The Vesuvius DOES NOT. Simple as that.

No... the larger ships could not jump PERIOD. The Hakaga simply enabled the larger ships to jump. That's it.

The Vesuvius had the same technology otherwise it couldn't even have jumped out of the Sol System.

Since when does it specifically say that the Hakaga can use ANY Jump-point?

The person who's created elaborate theories about why the Vesuvius has supar-secrat jump technology that just happens not to work the only time it would be important wants *SPECIFIC PROOF OF SOMETHING*? The person who, in just this comment, has pretended that we know how large jump points in the Sol System are? You're the one claiming the existence of something never stated and explicitly contradicted in WCIV -- and you want specific proof?

Well why don't they correct it then?

Why doesn't anyone do anything? Presumably the ships database hasn't been updated because no one who knows more correct statistics for ships has worked on it. Why haven't *you* created a fantastically detailed ships database?

Do you honestly expect me to scour the entire world wide web to find some stats? I thought the stats were good enough on that site.

You clearly did *not* think they were good enough as you just spent several replies sobbing about how horrible it was that they'd *tricked* you into being wrong. Conspiracy!

That said, I wouldn't really expect anyone to use the world wide web for ship stats... a passing familiarity with the WC canon and maybe a few manuals should be enough.

The WC3 stats say it's comparable to the Light-Carrier...

Can you give me additional stats on the Bhantkara from the Novel?

It's the most modern Kilrathi carrier, and it's somewhere between a regular fleet carrier and the Hakaga class in terms of arms and armor. Again, though, for painstaking descriptions of the ship, read False Colors.

But not in all?

Why would you even need to ask this question? You just claimed that it didn't appear in your version of WC3 -- and therefore clearly does *not* appear in all.

But the Intrepid if it was doing 144 when I clocked it (so was Vesuvius by the way!), they have roughly the same speed, if their scoops are closed, they'd probably be just as fast.

They clearly *wouldn't*, though. You keep ranting about how the Vesuvius' "acceleration" makes it look like the Intrepid is standing still -- and this is *exactly* where acceleration would come into play.
 
Blair, Hawk and Panther discussing the Vesuvius's long route
"A ship of their size dosent have a choice."

"But a ship of our's DOES"

does this suggest that the Vesuvius has the Uber Jump tech?
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


No, these are all cases of 'at leasts'. The minimum amount of mass drivers it can have is sixteen. They could put a Vesuvius-class in Wing Commander 6 and it could have 30 mass drivers... and that'd be okay. But we have *absolutely no ability* to go 'Hey, I wish the Vesuvius had more weapons! Oh, it must!'.

Where did you get the minimums from? You've told me where, and even what the minimums are. But why 16 and why 24. You did not say specifically.

Like for example "there were 8 guns on the left side, implying 8 on the right, which is 16". That's what I'm looking for.

I *understand* what the Confed Handbook says. I helped Philip Langdale come up with all that stuff years ago. I've written a nice FAQ that explains it all in more simple terms. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SAVE THAT IT IS THE BASIS FOR HOW SHIPS JUMP. I'm not sure why you're insisting that I 'don't get it'. The Hakaga has a device that allows it to use any jump point. The Vesuvius DOES NOT. Simple as that.

Yes, it DOES have to do with the basis of how ships jump. The Hakaga is beyond that 500 meter-radius thus requiring special technology to make it jump. That's ENTIRELY what the Hakaga's special technology was all about.

Do you have SPECIFIC information to suggest that the Hakaga can use any jump point? Or does all your evidence suggest that the Hakaga has new jump technology that simply enables it to jump? Just jump, not jump through hoops or rings or anything. Just jump?

The Vesuvius would have to use this new technology because it's above the 1,000 meter length/500 meter-radius requirement. All ships that size would. If the Hakaga, in ADDITION to having such technology to simply enable it to jump, ALSO had the ability to use any jump point, that's a different story.

The person who's created elaborate theories about why the Vesuvius has supar-secrat jump technology that just happens not to work the only time it would be important wants *SPECIFIC PROOF OF SOMETHING*? The person who, in just this comment, has pretended that we know how large jump points in the Sol System are? You're the one claiming the existence of something never stated and explicitly contradicted in WCIV -- and you want specific proof?

The fact that the Vesuvius can jump into the Sol system means that the Sol Jump points are pretty big. Considering even the H'var'kann, which was a 22,000 meter long ship could manage to get into the Sol-System would suggest that this is probably correct.

Why doesn't anyone do anything? Presumably the ships database hasn't been updated because no one who knows more correct statistics for ships has worked on it. Why haven't *you* created a fantastically detailed ships database?

Because I don't have the time or the resources to construct one.

You clearly did *not* think they were good enough as you just spent several replies sobbing about how horrible it was that they'd *tricked* you into being wrong. Conspiracy!

I didn't sob at all, in fact, all I was saying was that if anythings wrong in those stats, that's why and I'm relieving myself of any responcibility. I claimed ignorance.

That said, I wouldn't really expect anyone to use the world wide web for ship stats... a passing familiarity with the WC canon and maybe a few manuals should be enough.

A lot of my WC-Games are all over the place, and not where I currently live. This would require me to go trekking home and all over the place to find them.

It's the most modern Kilrathi carrier, and it's somewhere between a regular fleet carrier and the Hakaga class in terms of arms and armor. Again, though, for painstaking descriptions of the ship, read False Colors.

Then the Bhantkara is not the same carrier as the Kilrathi fleet carrier in WC3. Unless the WC3 one had stats missing.

Would you be so bold as to give me the statistics, since I don't have the luxury of going to the book-store right now.

Why would you even need to ask this question? You just claimed that it didn't appear in your version of WC3 -- and therefore clearly does *not* appear in all.

I would have sworn the WC3 Dreadnought had 1/1/1 as YPR stats. Do you have the exact game engine settings?

They clearly *wouldn't*, though. You keep ranting about how the Vesuvius' "acceleration" makes it look like the Intrepid is standing still -- and this is *exactly* where acceleration would come into play.

Oh, so you're taking my argument piece by piece...

I also said it's maneuverability and acceleration makes Intrepid look like it's standing still. Hmmm. Why didn't you count maneuverability in there too since in the game engine it CLEARLY can outmaneuver the Intrepid.

It may not have YPR stats (the Vesuvius) but the game engine kind of counts! I mean who cares if the stats are a bit wierd, hey, I gotta fight the Vesuvius when it's zipping all over the place.


Originally posted by t.c.cgi
Wasn't Jameson a politician? Yes, they have a real good track record for knowing the ins and outs of the military.

True.


Originally posted by dacis2
I thought the Midway had low armour because it had shields comparable to starbases

Beside the point. With phase-shields it's all or nothing. Either you penetrate it, or you don't. Considering that even the Shrike's plasma gun can eat through it's shields as if they weren't there isn't exactly comforting.

-Concordia
 
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