Epee Gripes.

Does anyone know when the Ferret and Epee were retired, and which went first?
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We don't even know *if* they were retired! We actually don't see the Epee outside of the games, so its last appearance is in 2667 (Special Operations 2)... and the Ferret last appears in Confederation colors in 2668 in Fleet Action. The Ferret was much older than the Epee, though - we've seen Ferrets as early as 2638, while the Epee entered service in 2661.

Really? I thought those were only "our" complaints. I don't remember anything in the official fiction that suggested the Epee was as awful as I remember it being in WC2. The Academy manual mentioned two aces who died in Epee's but didn't directly blame the Epee for it.
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That's correct - this is basically an old fan joke that has taken on a life of its own... there's no evidence that people in the Wing Commander universe have any problem with the Epee (also, I can't really think of any missions where the Epee makes gameplay difficult, either...).
 
I’ve never been a big fan of light fighters but I’ve always done just as well when flying an Epee as any other light fighter so I don’t think it was as bad as people make it sound.
 
Blaster said:
I’ve never been a big fan of light fighters but I’ve always done just as well when flying an Epee as any other light fighter so I don’t think it was as bad as people make it sound.
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For many of us, thats how hard it was. A light fighter with just a tad more defense (Ferret) makes all the diff.
 
And always it is falut of game engine, but we do blame the fighter design.
When talking of WC1 - any ship and any cannon is of use, for enemy is blind, stupid and has no reflexes at all, and the most "advanced" feature is Bhurak's retreat. And as everything flyes slowly, it is of no importance if you have neutron guns, mass drivers of lasers - he'll not evade your fire.

When it is WC2 - particle cannons are almost useless with their damn slow projectiles, and all the fighters (except the Broadsword) have (by feelings, not by numbers) the same toilet paper shields. Well... Ferret is an exception, too. So poor Epee is in most bad position in WC2. Useless guns and useless shields, and inertia of projectiles forces you to fire at close distance only.

WCP engine (talking of Unkown Enemy) is another thing. The Epee is what it was ment to be. It is fast, it is nimble, and its guns are no more useless.

So, while WC2 Epee sucks (because of particle cannons only), the UE Epee is nice. I would even sometimes prefer it to Banshee (you know, lasers are just too old and weak weaponry by that date).
 
I disagree about the particle cannons... They are very useful when firing at enemies from afar. They really help taking down a fighter or two on the first pass.
 
... and any good pilot would evade the particle projectile without any problem. Don't you, when fighting pirate Epees in Gettisburg mission? Mass driver and neutron fire is much more difficult to evade, IMHO.

Me, when fighting Thrakhath... I use mass-drivers only, for an ace enemy makes you empty your batteries uselessly when fireing P.C.
 
I've said this in another thread, but I'll say it again. Note that I'm talking WC2 here, not Standoff. I think a lot of the love that the Ferret gets, and the hate that the Epee gets, is that they put the wrong gun on the Epee and the right one on the Ferret. Replace the Epee's particles with mass drivers, and I think people would like it a lot more.

There's two ways to use the Epee--use it's speed to keep your distance and its long range weapons to snipe, or use it's maneuverability and acceleration to protect you when you get in close and dance around sluggish opponents. Either approach can compensate for the Epee's thin armor, and both take good flying.

Personally, I find the second approach more fun, and I think a lot of Epee haters probably do too. But the particle is just the wrong gun for close-in dogfighting. You have to dance around so much to keep your skin whole and dodge rear-turret fire and enemy wingmen that you don't have time to carefully line up your shots. Furthermore, fixed guns on a very maneuverable ship are harder to aim accurately than those on a sluggish ship (like a Broadsword) that makes for a more stable gun platform. Hence in a maneuverable ship that gets in and dogfights, you want a weapon that does decent damage and fires fast--a mass driver. This worked great in a Ferret, but the particles on the Epee fire too slowly.

Hence you're almost forced to use the "keep your distance and snipe" approach, but this is much less fun (to me). And it wastes the Epee's maneuverability. Heck, if you're going to use this approach, you probably want a LESS maneuverable ship (but still very fast) so that you have a more stable platform to snipe from.
 
If you wanted to snipe and destroy something from a distance. Why use the epee, why not just use the PTC on the concordia, that will smoke whatever your trying to blow away! :)
 
MjavTheGray said:
And always it is falut of game engine, but we do blame the fighter design.
When talking of WC1 - any ship and any cannon is of use, for enemy is blind, stupid and has no reflexes at all, and the most "advanced" feature is Bhurak's retreat. And as everything flyes slowly, it is of no importance if you have neutron guns, mass drivers of lasers - he'll not evade your fire.

When it is WC2 - particle cannons are almost useless with their damn slow projectiles, and all the fighters (except the Broadsword) have (by feelings, not by numbers) the same toilet paper shields. Well... Ferret is an exception, too. So poor Epee is in most bad position in WC2. Useless guns and useless shields, and inertia of projectiles forces you to fire at close distance only.

WCP engine (talking of Unkown Enemy) is another thing. The Epee is what it was ment to be. It is fast, it is nimble, and its guns are no more useless.

So, while WC2 Epee sucks (because of particle cannons only), the UE Epee is nice. I would even sometimes prefer it to Banshee (you know, lasers are just too old and weak weaponry by that date).
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You left out the Rapier! Her shields were very powerful.
 
frostytheplebe said:
You left out the Rapier! Her shields were very powerful.
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Nope :)
Didn't leave it out :)
WC2 Rapier (opposed to WC1 version) has the same paper shields. I am talking of player feelings, not of numbers in manual. So, while WC1 Rapier did have nice shields, WC2'ish one - had nothing to be proud of. It wasn't even the most nimble ship anymore - Ferret and Epee were far better in this aspect.
 
MjavTheGray said:
Nope :)
Didn't leave it out :)
WC2 Rapier (opposed to WC1 version) has the same paper shields. I am talking of player feelings, not of numbers in manual. So, while WC1 Rapier did have nice shields, WC2'ish one - had nothing to be proud of. It wasn't even the most nimble ship anymore - Ferret and Epee were far better in this aspect.
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I'm not talking manual either, I thought the shields on it were very good, and I liked the laser/particle combo. Anything paired with Lasers is ok in my book!
 
Ijuin said:
Maybe if the two guns' firing times were half-offset from one another so that they would alternate fire, resulting in single shots twice as frequently?
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I still think it would have made sense as an "interceptor" craft. Move in, sting the enemy as hard as possible, move out quickly.

But for that to have happened, it would have needed to be equipped with IFFs and neutron guns instead of particle. Also a slightly larger power core would be nice.

The ferret and Hornet are light dogfighters, a job I feel they do quite well, but the Epee doesn't seem to have a dedicated job. It can't dogfight as it gets smoked fairly quick, and doesn't have the correct loadout for use as an interceptor, as its missiles take time to lock on, and particle cannons don't seem to punch as hard.

This is why I like the Sartha, its loadout is quite appropriate for interceptor use.
 
Neutron guns hit the hardest at close range, but you have to get in even closer than Mass Drivers to take advantage of that.
 
I'd get even closer then that - anyway full-powered neutrons have longer range than those mounted in turrets, so it'd be the same when fighting heavies.
But neutrons (though slower than mass drivers) have much faster projectiles than particles.

Why else do Sarthas survive much better than Epees in WCII ? Maybe their "outdated" neutron guns have something to do with it? ;)
 
Nomad Terror said:
the neutron guns certainly make the Sartha lethal bomber-killers in Standoff.
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Right, which is the job the Epee should have been able to do. As balanced as the Particle gun is, it just didn't have the same stopping power. It seems that Confed never put out a fighter that used only neutron guns(at least not a flyable one), which I think is a shame.
 
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