Do you think it was correct that Confed destroyed Kilrah?

[Skyfire]

Um...right...

1) I don't really think that anyone WAS saying they all wanted all Terrans dead.

2) Economic depression is nearly impossible in a wartime economy, especially when your side is "winning." I don't know if ya know much about economics, but war means government involvement in purchasing mass items. That brings about a larger production by companies, which results in a higher work force. Just some knowledge for ya.

3) The fact that it is a video game does not make it completely immoralized or unethical. One of the key points to making a game, especially when you make multiple games to tie into a series as complex as WC, (All the more as you add novels, and things like the Confed Handbook) is that you build good characters/storylines. Thus making the Kilrathi aspect of the game, and the story about the war in general, important for discussion. One wouldn't go into how their race set up their government system/honor code, unless writers wanted the audience to believe firmly in the way this alien race acted. Thus making the belief system/characterization extremely important.

4) Should morality questions be raised in the game, it's inevitable that they will be raised by fans. (Something such as Tolwyn springs readily to mind.) Especially when your in an area of insanely high amounts of fan loyalty (this is the WC:CIC after all) these morality debates will be brought up. Once again relating into the story/character line, as well as giving the players something to think about. (Which would NOT make us have the inalienable right to kill other races, as it would be based entirely upon the desires of the situational player of the game.)

~Special Note: There may be a distinct over-reaction within this post, and I may be seeing FAR too much into the comments made (or missing the joking sarcasm entirely, should it prove existant.) However, the posting of a reply such as this, especially one that would go so far as to capitalize special points to be made, in an area like the CIC seems relatively foolish to me, as the fans are always going to blow games/subjects of games, WAY out of proportion.

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Lelapinmechant
...talk in ENGLISH amongst themselves.

As you said yourself, it's a computer game. Hence they're not going to show clips of Kilrathi speaking Kilrathi with English subtitles as in the movie, are we?

 

[WildWeasel]

...

Originally posted by Wedge009
Well, I wasn't sure what's your point against me, and I am still unsure now. What are you saying?

I'm saying that Blair was, in fact, haunted by the destruction of Kilrah. Was that really such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

 

[Wedge009]

Well, I'm sorry, but I could not see that just from playing the games. Blair looked perfectly happy in any of the three endings from WC3.

I suppose his 'thank you' speech to Casey in WCP shows his 'regret' or whatever, but I don't think that equates to saying that the sky is blue. (It may very well be grey or even black, depending on where you live).

 

[vax]

Wing Commander is fiction. It's just that. Anything goes in fiction. If Chris Roberts didn't want the Kilrathi to be "the perfect enemy" he didn't have to make it that way. If your looking for complete morality in a game, play something else.

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Wedge009
Well, I'm sorry, but I could not see that just from playing the games. Blair looked perfectly happy in any of the three endings from WC3.

Then you must've missed the part in Wing Commander IV where they talk about the horrible drinking problem that Blair had after the war. You must've also missed the scene shortly after Blair was rescued from the Nephilim, when all his memories of the war have been revived, where he talks about the horrible things he's seen and done.

You're right. Those sound like the actions of a "perfectly happy" man, don't they?

 

[TC]

Except the Kilrathi were far from murderous bastards. Read pretty much any novel and there are Kilrathi talking about how they don't want to exterminate humanity... or at least want to do it in a more civilized manner.

TC

 

[Penguin]

Originally posted by TC
Except the Kilrathi were far from murderous bastards.

They provoke wars without provocation.
They exterminate entire species (or large percentages).
They pull Iceman from his pod and slice him up.
They gut Angel.

Please explain how participation in any of the above does not make you a murderous bastard?

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Confed Marines cut the ears from Kilrathi and make collars from it, they urinate against sacred places and raze them completey and finally destroy two planets, at least one of it with the entire culture of a race. That's not nice either.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
Confed Marines cut the ears from Kilrathi and make collars from it, they urinate against sacred places and raze them completey and finally destroy two planets, at least one of it with the entire culture of a race. That's not nice either.

Logical fallacy -- "Well, apples are red!" doesn't prove that cars *aren't* red.

 

[Battler Hawke]

Originally posted by Skyfire
That may be very true, that the had wanted humanity destroyed, but as I can't remember I can't really say. In any event, I still think humanity would have persevered in some way shape or form, if not hiding from the Kilrathi in some distant galaxy, then raiding as pirates. Still, I don't think they could have exterminated all of mankind's worlds. That'd be like destroying Kilrah, then hunting down each Kilrathi world and killing all the people. I don't think either side had the resources for such an operation. (Unless your assuming bioweapons/nuking worlds. Then there may be difficulties to this argument. Which, the Kilrathi had used, so I wouldn't be suprised.)

if i remember right in the wc3 the emperor want's the human race wiped out a little richual to sival and bio/nuke weapons.
in the book the talk about using human worlds as the worlds dedicated to the worship of sival.that means the total murder of all human life on the world.

 

[Lelapinmechant]

er, are there big cats in France?

Originally posted by Skyfire
2) Economic depression is nearly impossible in a wartime economy, especially when your side is "winning." I don't know if ya know much about economics, but war means government involvement in purchasing mass items. That brings about a larger production by companies, which results in a higher work force. Just some knowledge for ya.

All right, now that I don't feel like a loser talking about the fantasy society of big cats(understand, this isn't just my first time on a fan board... it's my first time in any chat at all, so I don't know exactly what to say and what not to say), I need to respond to that question of so-called "war-economics." I haven't heard(though it may be because of my newness to the fan-base) any explanation of day-to-day kilrathi life or social structure/hierarchy. So it's perfectly reasonable to think certain kilrathi may be economically disenfranchised, due to the fact that there may not be an even distribution of wealth. Is there an aristocracy? Who gets taxed/who pays for the war effort? War costs money, and in certain caste societies it's the little guy who pays for the war effort while it's the select few who enjoy the fruits of that effort. Maybe you ought to read about what happened to monarchical France during it's imperialist days(it was, after all, the "winning side"). There was a revolution due to uneven distribution of wealth and a great national debt. "Just some knowledge for ya."

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


Logical fallacy -- "Well, apples are red!" doesn't prove that cars *aren't* red.

I never claimed that.
I just claim that Humans are

Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
not nice either.

 

[Lelapinmechant]

'Scuse me, while I kiss the sky...

Originally posted by Wedge009
...but I don't think that equates to saying that the sky is blue. (It may very well be grey or even black, depending on where you live).

It also depends on the time of day and the season, you know. Blue skies are hard to find at night
8-0

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by WildWeasel
Then you must've missed the part in Wing Commander IV where they talk about the horrible drinking problem that Blair had after the war.

Actually, I must have. Where exactly is that?

Originally posted by WildWeasel
You must've also missed the scene shortly after Blair was rescued from the Nephilim, when all his memories of the war have been revived, where he talks about the horrible things he's seen and done.

Originally posted by Wedge009
I suppose his 'thank you' speech to Casey in WCP shows his 'regret' or whatever...

Originally posted by Lelapinmechant
...due to the fact that there may not be an even distribution of wealth. Is there an aristocracy?

I think there is - they always go on about being of noble blood and whatnot. (Hobbes going on about Thrak'hra and Kilra'hra in WC2 (yes, I know the spelling may not be right).)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It's in the novel... and the script for the game.

 

[Wedge009]

That's what I thought. Hardly 'in-game', IMO. But I must admit, this whole discussion has been blown ridiculously out of proportion.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally posted by Wedge009
That's what I thought. Hardly 'in-game', IMO. But I must admit, this whole discussion has been blown ridiculously out of proportion.

Ehh -- Blair's general unhappyness as a farmer definately does appear in the game, though...

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Wedge009
That's what I thought. Hardly 'in-game', IMO.

How does that matter? What happens in the novels is just as valid as what happens in the games. You should know that.

 

[Skyfire]

Re: er, are there big cats in France?

Originally posted by Lelapinmechant


All right, now that I don't feel like a loser talking about the fantasy society of big cats(understand, this isn't just my first time on a fan board... it's my first time in any chat at all, so I don't know exactly what to say and what not to say), I need to respond to that question of so-called "war-economics." I haven't heard(though it may be because of my newness to the fan-base) any explanation of day-to-day kilrathi life or social structure/hierarchy. So it's perfectly reasonable to think certain kilrathi may be economically disenfranchised, due to the fact that there may not be an even distribution of wealth. Is there an aristocracy? Who gets taxed/who pays for the war effort? War costs money, and in certain caste societies it's the little guy who pays for the war effort while it's the select few who enjoy the fruits of that effort. Maybe you ought to read about what happened to monarchical France during it's imperialist days(it was, after all, the "winning side"). There was a revolution due to uneven distribution of wealth and a great national debt. "Just some knowledge for ya."

Well, first off, due to the fact that the nobility was a good portion of the military, I'd think it was safe to assume that a good portion of their finances were founding for their military. (Due to the fact that they all had personal fleets.) Secondly, imperialist France was actually relatively well off, due to the fact that they were the first to develop the concept of "taxation through region and commerce equality." (ie. They tax based upon a generalized area, focused on how well the markets of the area are working, raising taxes in the more effective areas. This was forumlated by a Cardinal during the 1400-1600's, name escapes me, give me a break.) Not to mention that Richelieu was the first to develop the concept of the Seigneurial system, which enabled both a more modern day economy with a touch of modernized feudalism. More importantly, the reason that imperialist France began it's decline was the fact that it began major naval operations against England, constantly losing major fleets (the French have always been terrible in naval warfare), as well as the fact that once they engaged in both the Napoleonic Wars, as well as the Seven Years war, their empire was divided up. Having these two wars within a relatively quick succession, and losing a great deal of territory to the 7-year, and a good deal of manpower/resources in the Napoleonic, France was thus weakened into a position that did not enable them to expand extremely during the militaristic period of the mid-later 1800's.

These weaknesses breaking down French resources/land/population gave them very little ability to maintain a strong economy for long. However, in the initial stages of imperialism, they were actually extremely well off. Their colonies in both the Canadian areas, not to mention the heart of the present United States, were stripped (or sold for very little), giving the opportunity to gather resources for export a wall. Even still, before the wars that stripped most of France's empire they were actually extremely, economically as well as militarily, well off.