Could WC1 be made better?
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Maj.Striker
Swabbie
Banned
I'm not so sure you would need a new sprite engine. I'm not a programmer but I'd be willing to bet you could mod the current WC1/WC2 engine to run at a higher resolution. Then all you would have to do is swap out the sprites of the ships with high resolution ones created in a rendering program. Probably...with a little programming you could tweak the engine to add in a few more angles to make the transition from (say side to bottom) more natural. Wouldn't be hard...the only thing that would probably still have to run at 320x240 or so would be the cutscenes...but if you watch it in a window that small it will still look pretty decent.
woo! striker nailed it on the head, i was hoping someone would say 'use the original'.
it'd be great if someone with some hefty programming know how could take the original recompile it for windows on its own, figure out how to replace the sprites with higher resolution ones, thus keeping the game like it was, just improved graphically and more compatible with systems now.
until then, grab dosbox and play.
it'd be great if someone with some hefty programming know how could take the original recompile it for windows on its own, figure out how to replace the sprites with higher resolution ones, thus keeping the game like it was, just improved graphically and more compatible with systems now.
until then, grab dosbox and play.
PopsiclePete
Mission programmer
But for that we'd need the source code, and EA is not interested in sharing 
Mario "HCl" Brito did try to enhance the original game's aspect with anti-aliasing processing of the flat screen rendering, but it didn't good results yet. I think he abandoned the idea.
Mario "HCl" Brito did try to enhance the original game's aspect with anti-aliasing processing of the flat screen rendering, but it didn't good results yet. I think he abandoned the idea.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
I don't know if it would be much better than the original... I mean, I don't know if it would have a point.
I'd be happy with good WinXP ports of all WC games, Priv and Armada included. Ports, not remakes. Even WCP is all quirky in winxp and modern hardware, like the strange targeting cross missing parts and weird screen resizing problems running it with a glide wrapper in highr res.
I mean, stuff like the little file that Gulikoza created and which made WC4 DVD a great thing for a lot of people.
PS: I'1m not refering to great works like UE and StandOff, they are new content
I'd be happy with good WinXP ports of all WC games, Priv and Armada included. Ports, not remakes. Even WCP is all quirky in winxp and modern hardware, like the strange targeting cross missing parts and weird screen resizing problems running it with a glide wrapper in highr res.
I mean, stuff like the little file that Gulikoza created and which made WC4 DVD a great thing for a lot of people.
PS: I'1m not refering to great works like UE and StandOff, they are new content
AKAImBatman
Spaceman
Maj.Striker said:
Not with the DOS version. The DOS version ran in the 640K real mode model, with the ability to stash a bit of data in EMS memory. It was very carefully tweaked and is unlikely to be able to handle larger sprites. You might be able to get something out of the Win95 version, but then you have other issues to deal with. (I finally got it fully operational on my machine, but only with the help of the Microsoft Application Toolkit, lots of testing, messing around, and a few reinstalls.)
Personally, do I believe that Wing Commander can be made "better" by a remake? No, I don't. However, I do think that it could be updated to work better on modern machines. Take the Privateer Remake as an example. It's certainly not "better", but it does bring back a lot of the joy that was inherent in playing the original. However, I think Privateer benefits more from the update to a 3D engine than WC would. In Priv, much of the fun was in the universe around you (i.e. the trading, the missions, the atmosphere, the sneaking past the militia, etc.) and combat was secondary. But in WC, the combat is first and foremost the priority. Changing the dynamics of the combat in that situation will give you a very different game that just happens to take place in a universe you remember.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to finish loading Super Wing Commander on my Mac.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The Privateer Remake is the obvious proof that an updated version done by fans isn't necessarily a great idea.
Fans just plain don't know what makes a good game - they want as much as possible as quickly as possible. We still remember the huge amount of work we had to go through to deck out our Tarii specifically because it was a huge amount of work. This was not a *fault* in the game, it was what made it great. We still argue over which ship is best because they were specifically created to have tradeoffs and disadvantages. "Remaking" the game to "fix" this - adding amazing superships that are available after one or two missions and such, adding extra-profitable cargo runs, etc. - you're wrong.
The ability to code a pretty engine does not make someone a game designer. That's pretty much the only legacy of the Privateer Remake.
And lets be clear that while it's easy to bash the remake, this problem is not exclusive to cheap fan immitations. Consider the Wing Commander games as 'remakes' of the original concept. People wanted it to be easier to kill capital ships - so it is! People thought asteroid fields and minefields were too much work - out they went! Wing Commander III is much prettier game, a much more technologically impressive game than Wing Commander I... but a lot of the elements that make Wing Commander I worth discussing today were removed.
We continue to talk about Rostov because of all the rocks, we continue to talk about Kurasawa because it's nigh impossible... another disorganized, me-first remake would take these "criticisms" as things to fix instead of the things that made the game a classic in the first place.
Fans just plain don't know what makes a good game - they want as much as possible as quickly as possible. We still remember the huge amount of work we had to go through to deck out our Tarii specifically because it was a huge amount of work. This was not a *fault* in the game, it was what made it great. We still argue over which ship is best because they were specifically created to have tradeoffs and disadvantages. "Remaking" the game to "fix" this - adding amazing superships that are available after one or two missions and such, adding extra-profitable cargo runs, etc. - you're wrong.
The ability to code a pretty engine does not make someone a game designer. That's pretty much the only legacy of the Privateer Remake.
And lets be clear that while it's easy to bash the remake, this problem is not exclusive to cheap fan immitations. Consider the Wing Commander games as 'remakes' of the original concept. People wanted it to be easier to kill capital ships - so it is! People thought asteroid fields and minefields were too much work - out they went! Wing Commander III is much prettier game, a much more technologically impressive game than Wing Commander I... but a lot of the elements that make Wing Commander I worth discussing today were removed.
We continue to talk about Rostov because of all the rocks, we continue to talk about Kurasawa because it's nigh impossible... another disorganized, me-first remake would take these "criticisms" as things to fix instead of the things that made the game a classic in the first place.
I beg to differ old chap,
In fact I think that the hard things need to stay and others need to be made harder such as killing capital ships and simply things just being in proportion,
As for the fans not know what makes a good game, were you having a smokey smokey at the time? Who else, if not the fans, knows what makes a good game and that is why fan mods are so popular. If you want something that really appeals to the masses then it must be by the masses. Simple.
In fact I think that the hard things need to stay and others need to be made harder such as killing capital ships and simply things just being in proportion,
As for the fans not know what makes a good game, were you having a smokey smokey at the time? Who else, if not the fans, knows what makes a good game and that is why fan mods are so popular. If you want something that really appeals to the masses then it must be by the masses. Simple.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Well, I'm pretty sure I provided an excellent example of fans making an awful game... and then I explained why. In what way did that confuse you? Fans do not know what makes a good game, they know what they *think* they want in a game. These two things are not at all the same.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
climber said:
I've found that fans are the last people you should attempt to cater to. Skimming a couple of internet gaming boards will get you craptacular entries like this:
From the offical Star Wars: Battlefront 2 forum:
Fore those of you who are about to say..."what about boarding the other capital ships? How would non-pilots do that?" this is what i believe should be done BOARDING OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS wont be a problem if they make it so there are transport/boarding vehicles.
Pedro
Admiral
I'd like to chip in, having worked on UE and all...
...such a remake should NOT be made. I'm still not convinced that the vision engine is superior in every way to that of the WC1s, I still love going back to that title and don't feel I or any other fan has the right to attempt to improve upon anything so dear to our hearts...
On the other hand, remakes have gone to prove that they can work in the video game world. Few go back from Metal Gear Solid on the Gamecube to the PSX version, the conversion may have been uninspiring but it was exact enough. A skilled proffesional team could remake Wing Commander simply with updated graphics and some minor gameplay mechanic updates.
Resident Evil REmake shows how it IS possible to improve upon the original. And if we had a budget of $4mill+, an experienced team and most importantly Chris Roberts helping us create a retelling of the kilrathi war then fantastic! That is something I would love to see one day but I feel the fans should steer well clear and accept that it is unrealistic to expect to exceed such greatness no matter how far on technology has moved.
...such a remake should NOT be made. I'm still not convinced that the vision engine is superior in every way to that of the WC1s, I still love going back to that title and don't feel I or any other fan has the right to attempt to improve upon anything so dear to our hearts...
On the other hand, remakes have gone to prove that they can work in the video game world. Few go back from Metal Gear Solid on the Gamecube to the PSX version, the conversion may have been uninspiring but it was exact enough. A skilled proffesional team could remake Wing Commander simply with updated graphics and some minor gameplay mechanic updates.
Resident Evil REmake shows how it IS possible to improve upon the original. And if we had a budget of $4mill+, an experienced team and most importantly Chris Roberts helping us create a retelling of the kilrathi war then fantastic! That is something I would love to see one day but I feel the fans should steer well clear and accept that it is unrealistic to expect to exceed such greatness no matter how far on technology has moved.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Everyone enjoys living in houses... that means everyone must be good at *building* houses! Everyone loves driving cars... that means everyone must be good at *designing* cars! Everyone likes listening to music... that means everyone is a *great* musician! I love the space program, I must be able to put a man on the moon!
Appreciation is not equal to understanding.
I certainly don't mean to discredit every fan project - but clearly the experience of the Wing Commander community is *certainly* that the fan project teams that act the most like professional development teams are the ones that deliver the goods. There is a reason people continue to buy video games instead of downloading the million home brewed ones that are released every year.
Appreciation is not equal to understanding.
I certainly don't mean to discredit every fan project - but clearly the experience of the Wing Commander community is *certainly* that the fan project teams that act the most like professional development teams are the ones that deliver the goods. There is a reason people continue to buy video games instead of downloading the million home brewed ones that are released every year.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Some sort of patch to let people multiplay Armada on modern computers would be the most amazing thing anyone could do for the community.
Dollars to donuts says the open source jerks wouldn't touch the concept -- it's not a sexy slashdot headline, gaming industry career starting project. They *used* Privateer to promote themselves, and we should all be sickened by the concept.
Dollars to donuts says the open source jerks wouldn't touch the concept -- it's not a sexy slashdot headline, gaming industry career starting project. They *used* Privateer to promote themselves, and we should all be sickened by the concept.
AKAImBatman
Spaceman
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
It worked with Kali DOS many years ago... but I don't think anyone has managed to get it to work since then.
