Capships should never be destroyed...
- Thread starter sninja387
- Start date
Terrorizer
Spaceman
I'm sure the claw had a very slow rate of launch. I'll also bet that the claw was the only bengal that had that many launch tubes, because all the other bengals made after her were smaller.
Terrorizer
Spaceman
According to the wc1 manual, the Tigers Claw was the first Bengal. It also said that the Cut in Length and mass was owed to design modifications. We'll never know anything else about the bengals though 
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
The reason why the 'Claw's CAP is usually so small is because there's no point keeping all those fighters up in the air (too much fuel wasted). Until the Strakha slithered along, the idea of fighters approaching without advanced warning was ridiculous, after all.
Now, the reason why the 'Claw's CAP is still so small when the enemy appears also happens to be the reason why the Midway may indeed, as DH said, be a better carrier - the 'Claw's tubes were always the first to go
. Though, technically, that shouldn't make that much of a difference - after all, there's still the main deck and the two flank hangars, right?
As for the Concordia, it mustn't be forgotten that the fighters were not her primary armament... the PTC was. And she obviously had very little in the way of backup systems, judging from certain missions
. At any rate, she was quite capable of gunning down a Fralthra within seconds, regardless of whether her flight deck and PTC were functional - she had 7 AMGs, after all.
Now, the reason why the 'Claw's CAP is still so small when the enemy appears also happens to be the reason why the Midway may indeed, as DH said, be a better carrier - the 'Claw's tubes were always the first to go
. Though, technically, that shouldn't make that much of a difference - after all, there's still the main deck and the two flank hangars, right?As for the Concordia, it mustn't be forgotten that the fighters were not her primary armament... the PTC was. And she obviously had very little in the way of backup systems, judging from certain missions
. At any rate, she was quite capable of gunning down a Fralthra within seconds, regardless of whether her flight deck and PTC were functional - she had 7 AMGs, after all.Terrorizer
Spaceman
hehehe..the concordia had 8 amg's (sorry, I couldn't resist)
(sorry, I couldn't resist)RE: to messages below
EW: Very well than... they still didn't want it because of lack of ships like Chip sugests though
CB: If you've got people who are just standing/sitting in a ship doing nothing while the rest are crewing the ship, you've got a lack of ships.
Terr: Does this mean that the concordia class carriers and the vesuvius had two flight bays as told in the wc4 novel? In the games the large bays could probably launch two fighters at a time. In action stations the concordia, nameship of the class, had only one. Also the Tigers Claw only had one as well, but it was also quite large.
CB: I know in the WCATV series in the episode that has Maniac go saving a hospital ship, the Kilrathi have stolen Confed fighters and use them to attack the Tiger's Claw. The Tiger's Claw launches 3 fighters simultaneously.
BL: Now, regarding Paz -- he was a Marine *officer*, so me must have either attended the Naval Academy or done NROTC Marine Option during college... either way, he would have been 21 before he was shipped off to Repleetah. Clearly his recovery time was negligable, as he recovered from his later seizure in just a few days -- still, he would have had to attend basic flight training and then advanced flight school (what we saw in the first epsiode of WCA) before he could be assigned to the Tiger's Claw -- this would have taken at least six months. Further, since WCA takes place right before and during WC1, the ages of Blair and Maniac are *the same*.
CB: Why would Paz have to be 21? I know 18 year olds can sign up with the USA military. How does WCA takes place during WC1? I always thought that WCA took place entirely before WC1. When I've played WC1, I never once encountered the "Tolwyn" character, just Col. Haycon. And in WCA, there was no "Hunter" or "Paladin" characters either, because if there were, one of them shouldve been leading the attack on the Agahn Ras Siver during the last WCA episode because of their rank. Remember, during the whole WCA series, Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz were all Cadets -- they had no rank.
BL: Nobody captured the Agahn Ras Siver -- it was doomed when Blair and Paz got to the bridge, they just gave it a new course before abandoning ship.
CB: We could pretend for a moment that Blair and Paz eventually found out there was no real Marine landing, could it have been possible for them to have redirected the Agahn Ras Siver away from Dolos and to take up formation with the Tiger's Claw, assuming of course that Maniac's attack would have been called off to prevent the Agahn Ras Siver from being destroyed?
EW: Very well than... they still didn't want it because of lack of ships like Chip sugests though
CB: If you've got people who are just standing/sitting in a ship doing nothing while the rest are crewing the ship, you've got a lack of ships.
Terr: Does this mean that the concordia class carriers and the vesuvius had two flight bays as told in the wc4 novel? In the games the large bays could probably launch two fighters at a time. In action stations the concordia, nameship of the class, had only one. Also the Tigers Claw only had one as well, but it was also quite large.
CB: I know in the WCATV series in the episode that has Maniac go saving a hospital ship, the Kilrathi have stolen Confed fighters and use them to attack the Tiger's Claw. The Tiger's Claw launches 3 fighters simultaneously.
BL: Now, regarding Paz -- he was a Marine *officer*, so me must have either attended the Naval Academy or done NROTC Marine Option during college... either way, he would have been 21 before he was shipped off to Repleetah. Clearly his recovery time was negligable, as he recovered from his later seizure in just a few days -- still, he would have had to attend basic flight training and then advanced flight school (what we saw in the first epsiode of WCA) before he could be assigned to the Tiger's Claw -- this would have taken at least six months. Further, since WCA takes place right before and during WC1, the ages of Blair and Maniac are *the same*.
CB: Why would Paz have to be 21? I know 18 year olds can sign up with the USA military. How does WCA takes place during WC1? I always thought that WCA took place entirely before WC1. When I've played WC1, I never once encountered the "Tolwyn" character, just Col. Haycon. And in WCA, there was no "Hunter" or "Paladin" characters either, because if there were, one of them shouldve been leading the attack on the Agahn Ras Siver during the last WCA episode because of their rank. Remember, during the whole WCA series, Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz were all Cadets -- they had no rank.
BL: Nobody captured the Agahn Ras Siver -- it was doomed when Blair and Paz got to the bridge, they just gave it a new course before abandoning ship.
CB: We could pretend for a moment that Blair and Paz eventually found out there was no real Marine landing, could it have been possible for them to have redirected the Agahn Ras Siver away from Dolos and to take up formation with the Tiger's Claw, assuming of course that Maniac's attack would have been called off to prevent the Agahn Ras Siver from being destroyed?
What in the hell are you talking about? There are no people who just stand around, many times it's the people that Confed lacks.
This is not the feaking USA military, so don't base any asumptions on that...
That's because you don't pay attention... Academy takes place in 2653, one year before WC1.
WOW... Tolwyn wasn't on board, because we can assume that after the destruction of Thraks flagship, Confed decided that Tolwyn was more valubale in combat, rather than *babysiting some newbies*, and he was transfered to the Concordia (the super cruiser, not the dreadnought). Hunter or Paladin were not there, because the Claw was right now serving as a cruise liner for fresh cadets, those two, as well as all the other pilots from the Claw, were either on R & R, or temporarly assigned to other ships.
What about the pilots from the Trafalgar? That ship most likely had few vets....
NO!
That ship was already doomed when Blair and Paz got to the bridge, there was absolutelly no way to save it.Death's Head
Spaceman
When Halcyon said the launch tube was taken out, it must have been an oversight. It sounds goofy launching two fighters abreast from a single tube, afterall. The skilled crew on the Concordia managed to get multiple ships luanched within a minute-provided both bays were intact and the flight deck wasn't sealed off for repairs...again. But the 'Claw's fortunate design trait gives it some redundancy in the way of flight ops as a Hv. Carrier that a Dreadnought would often overlook. I thought the Concordia was a fine carrier for a battleship, with 120 fightercraft to boast about. The shipmounted weaponry did a great deal to save the Concordia when the flight deck was down many a time.
Aye, the Connie had seven to sport, but an odd number would mean there's a large turret somewhere on the centerline in addition to the six on the sides. Where it would be isn't clear to me.
You do have a point with the Strakhas, but the Austin being attacked by a wing of Gratha was unusual. Of course JAZZ was there to make things interesting. So there must be several wings on patrols and the 'Claw had a wing providing close support most of the time. The exception I saw was mostly when she had to attack well defended targets like depots and starbases, particulary sector HQs.
Aye, the Connie had seven to sport, but an odd number would mean there's a large turret somewhere on the centerline in addition to the six on the sides. Where it would be isn't clear to me.
You do have a point with the Strakhas, but the Austin being attacked by a wing of Gratha was unusual. Of course JAZZ was there to make things interesting. So there must be several wings on patrols and the 'Claw had a wing providing close support most of the time. The exception I saw was mostly when she had to attack well defended targets like depots and starbases, particulary sector HQs.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
And that is indeed what it all comes down to - the 'Claw was a purebred carrier, while the Concordia was a dreadnought, and thus a mix of carrier and battleship.
Regarding the Grathas... I wonder, just how effective were the various detection systems if the enemy ships maintained radio silence and so on.
Regarding the Grathas... I wonder, just how effective were the various detection systems if the enemy ships maintained radio silence and so on.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Erm, yes, 18 year olds can join the military -- but as I quite clearly pointed out, Paz was an *OFFICER*... this means that he went through a four year NROTC or Academy program. Thus he is at least 21. I suppose since it were wartime he could have had a field comission of some sort, but again it would have taken him years to earn this.
The reason the Confederation class can launch fighters so very quickly (whereas the Bengal and Midway classes are slower) is because the launch and recovery decks are in the same place -- no time consuming internal shifting of fighters.
As for the AMG question... as cute as Quarto's bit about there only being seven whenever anyone quotes the manual, we should probably go with the manual number whenever it can overlap with the game. The game only simulates 7, fine -- but there are plenty of things on every capital ship that the game *doesn't* simulate, but the novels/manual/etc tell us are there.
The Austin being attacked by Gratha *was* unusual -- which is why the Austin's squadron commander insisted that he be allowed to resign.
Wing Commander Academy takes place in 2654 (aside from the first episode). The show is not about the SF Academy (flying isn't even necessary there), but rather (according to the press release) about the 'Wing Commander Academy', a command school of sorts. Case in point, the Sivar episode *has* to take place on 2654.293.
Tolwyn took over command of the Tiger's Claw from Captain Thorn, accusing Thorn of being a traitor. This is referenced in the WCIII novel... I don't recall seeing 750 characters in either WC1 or WCA, so I think we're safe from the tired old "IF I DID NOT SEE IT, IT'S NOT THERE!" routine.
Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz, etc were comissioned seconds lieutenants, according to the WCA press kit.
The reason the Confederation class can launch fighters so very quickly (whereas the Bengal and Midway classes are slower) is because the launch and recovery decks are in the same place -- no time consuming internal shifting of fighters.
As for the AMG question... as cute as Quarto's bit about there only being seven whenever anyone quotes the manual, we should probably go with the manual number whenever it can overlap with the game. The game only simulates 7, fine -- but there are plenty of things on every capital ship that the game *doesn't* simulate, but the novels/manual/etc tell us are there.
The Austin being attacked by Gratha *was* unusual -- which is why the Austin's squadron commander insisted that he be allowed to resign.
Wing Commander Academy takes place in 2654 (aside from the first episode). The show is not about the SF Academy (flying isn't even necessary there), but rather (according to the press release) about the 'Wing Commander Academy', a command school of sorts. Case in point, the Sivar episode *has* to take place on 2654.293.
Tolwyn took over command of the Tiger's Claw from Captain Thorn, accusing Thorn of being a traitor. This is referenced in the WCIII novel... I don't recall seeing 750 characters in either WC1 or WCA, so I think we're safe from the tired old "IF I DID NOT SEE IT, IT'S NOT THERE!" routine.
Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz, etc were comissioned seconds lieutenants, according to the WCA press kit.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Do understand, I don't do that just to be annoying
. It's just that, we know that the stats are different in the manuals as compared to the games, not because for some reason or another something couldn't be simulated, but rather because the stats had to be adjusted to balance the game. The only reason the manuals aren't up-to-date is because they need to be sent to print before the game testing is finished.Thus, wouldn't it make more sense to use the stats the way they appear in the game? If a book/manual/etc tells us about some "undocumented feature" (scoops fall into that category), that's fine, because the game generally doesn't invalidate these; but when it comes to plain and simple numbers, the game is de facto the most up-to-date source. To place manuals, books, et cetera ahead of the game (to which they are merely "add-ons") would be a serious mistake. It would be analogous to someone, sitting in a bus with 45 people saying "this is impossible, because the tech manual said there are only 30 seats in this bus". Ridiculous
.Terrorizer
Spaceman
WC2 didn't need to be balanced. The Concordia was always invincible. Those cap ship fights were just shows. No matter what happened, the concordia was never destroyed during gameplay. Why would reducing the number of amg's on the concordia balance the cap ship fights?
Maybe the game engine had reached its maximum with all the weapons the concordia carried. After all, it had flak cannons, amg's, and a phase transit cannon. And amg's actually have 2 barrels per turret, you can see it in the funeral scenes. The game didn't simulate that either.
How could the game engine be the final word in what weapons cap ships have? If you went by that then you could say the tigers claw has no weapons at all, when it actually has more than even the manual says.
[Edited by Terrorizer on 01-01-2001 at 18:43]
Maybe the game engine had reached its maximum with all the weapons the concordia carried. After all, it had flak cannons, amg's, and a phase transit cannon. And amg's actually have 2 barrels per turret, you can see it in the funeral scenes. The game didn't simulate that either.
How could the game engine be the final word in what weapons cap ships have? If you went by that then you could say the tigers claw has no weapons at all, when it actually has more than even the manual says.
[Edited by Terrorizer on 01-01-2001 at 18:43]
Death's Head
Spaceman
Invincible?? Perhaps you didn't see the Grikhath Heavy Fighters lobbing ship-killer topedoes in the direction of the Concordia, four hits being able to kill her? A cutscene showed the ship as risk in SO2 from being destroyed by a Fralthra, the flight deck being disabled several times...I don't need to list every incident, do I? No ship is invincible no matter how big or well defended. If you've played the series, you'd know that. And finally, did I mention the wreckage of the Concordia at Vespus?
Terrorizer
Spaceman
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about during gameplay. The concordia was never destroyed in a cap ship battle when you were flying in a fighter during the game. Origin programmed it that way. I've been playing the series from the start in 1990, I know nothing is invincible in wc.
[Edited by Terrorizer on 01-01-2001 at 19:14]
[Edited by Terrorizer on 01-01-2001 at 19:14]
BL: Tolwyn took over command of the Tiger's Claw from Captain Thorn, accusing Thorn of being a traitor. This is referenced in the WCIII novel... I don't recall seeing 750 characters in either WC1 or WCA, so I think we're safe from the tired old "IF I DID NOT SEE IT, IT'S NOT THERE!" routine.
Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz, etc were comissioned seconds lieutenants, according to the WCA press kit.
CB: So WC1 had to have come after WCA. The reason is because in WCA Episode 1, Fleet HQ has Cadets Blair, Marshall, Bowman, etc. transferred to the Tiger's Claw because Fleet HQ decided the cadets needed "hands on training". My theory goes, after the destruction of Thrak's {sp}Agham Nar Sivar{sp} FlagShip at Dolos, Tolwyn was either given a command on a ship/fleet some place else besides the Tiger's Claw, or was still with the Tiger's Claw to oversee its soon to be new captain -- Captain Thorn. Then WC1 occurs, then WC2, and finally WC3. And that's another thing. In WC1 (I don't have a manual for it), who is the player role playing when he plays WC1?
Blair, Marshall, Bowman, Paz, etc were comissioned seconds lieutenants, according to the WCA press kit.
CB: So WC1 had to have come after WCA. The reason is because in WCA Episode 1, Fleet HQ has Cadets Blair, Marshall, Bowman, etc. transferred to the Tiger's Claw because Fleet HQ decided the cadets needed "hands on training". My theory goes, after the destruction of Thrak's {sp}Agham Nar Sivar{sp} FlagShip at Dolos, Tolwyn was either given a command on a ship/fleet some place else besides the Tiger's Claw, or was still with the Tiger's Claw to oversee its soon to be new captain -- Captain Thorn. Then WC1 occurs, then WC2, and finally WC3. And that's another thing. In WC1 (I don't have a manual for it), who is the player role playing when he plays WC1?
Terrorizer
Spaceman
That's still Christopher Blair in wc1, but it never mentions it in the manual.