Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
IIRC, Fleet Action specifically says the Kilrathi had solved the jump point size limitation problem.
Well, that's a good counter for the one point. I suppose the Hvar'kanns were Thrakhath's ace in the hole in case the Hakaga fleet failed...but it seems out of character for him to have planned that far out in advance....
55 minutes at Queeg's movie and......that's a neg. At least, I couldn't spot anything other than the word "Classified".
I do wonder if I should use the roughly five kilometer length this guy came up with. An eleven kilometer length puts the width and draught around three kilometers, and the total bounding box would be larger than that of the Tiamat. From the way the Tiamat's description is phrased in the Prophecy cluebook, it sounds like it should be the bigger ship...
Beginning to wonder if I can do a reverse process for a guesstimate of the size of the Durango. WC4N mentions on p. 174 that Intrepid's damage control chief was too busy keeping the air from getting too toxic to "have to worry about how they're going to clean a hundred thousand cubic meters of air" - that figure's with a third of the ship gone. And then on p. 181, hawk reports the ship is "down to thirty-one front line strike craft, with seventeen obsolete models ... still in storage below-decks." That does give me at least a few numbers to try to crunch.
WCPedia says the armament of the Drayman consists of 5 Dual Mount Laser Batteries and a Single Mount Laser Turret. I'm looking at the line model from Claw Marks at the moment; I'm seeing five weapon emplacements instead of six. It looks like the one atop the cargo box would have a 360 degree field of fire, and mostly the same for the ones on the dorsal and ventral of the main superstructure (those probably wouldn't be able to fire into the aft arc). WCPedia does answer a long-standing question for me, whether those protrusion fore of the engine nacelles are guns or something else; they're guns, and they look like they'd be able fire in a relatively short arc fore. Still not seeing a sixth emplacement.
Diligent would be the next craft on my list. WCPedia says it has the Single Mount Laser Turret; it looks to me like the Diligent is just a Drayman reconfigured as a tanker. It might be missing the gun on top of the cargo box (because the cargo box isn't there), but other than that it should have the same armament. Clarification on this one is probably warranted.
Venture is the next craft after that - basically all I'm seeing are the two big guns and the turrets. The Turrets look like they wouldn't clear the ship's structure aft; probably a 270 degree arc at best for them (one for port and one for starboard). Any idea where the missile tubes are supposed to be located? Would they be tubes, or more like hardpoints on a fighter?
I imagine them being more like a fighter. Remember that the Venture was imagined as being like a bomber... before they came up with the Broadsword.
Claw Marks says three missiles on a Venture - a Pilum and two Javelins. The ship's database and WCPedia both confirms and contradicts this - crap, I hate it when that happens......Two forward lasers and the two turrets are all there is.
If I have a problem with the length of any ship class in the entire WC continuity, it's the Hvar'kann-class, simply because a) they came right on the heels of the Hakagas (you know, when the Cats were thinking they could lose because too many resources were being pulled away from the war for their construction) and b) they don't seem like they'd be able to use most Akwende jump points given what's been established about them. I mean, come on, Vesuvius had to make a detour to get to Earth because it was too big - how often do you think Hvar'kann, a ship that's in the neighborhood of ten to twelve times longer than Vesuvius, would have that problem? (I could figure out the differences in lengths; I just don't feel like doing it right now).
Why?EDIT: WHAT? 63 on the Durango? 25% more than on the Yorktown? The Yorktown is the odd one out. I think it should have around 70 fighters instead of the canonical 40.
Why?
Claw Marks says three missiles on a Venture - a Pilum and two Javelins. The ship's database and WCPedia both confirms and contradicts this - crap, I hate it when that happens......
Not seeing the Single Mount Lasers. Also don't see anything that's obviously a missile launcher; in the ship's prow, perhaps?
The Bengal - mind you, this is the version of the ship that appears in Claw Marks/WC1, not the movie - has an armament of eight dual laser turrets according to Claw Marks, a figure that WCPedia agrees with. The Ships Database adds 20 dual mount laser batteries and 40 torpedo tubes. I'm apt to ignore the torpedo tubes (no doubt added to explain how we can see the Tiger's Claw firing missiles at Venice when she's not supposed to be armed with them), but I can't deny the fact that I'm counting twenty weapons emplacements on the Claw, not eight. We've got -
What bothers me more is that despite being apparently an order of magnitude longer (and wider and taller) than the Vesuvius, the Hvar'kann only seems to mass three times as much--which implies a hundred-fold less solid material compared to the volume that circumscribes it. The mass of less than 400 kilotons is either a typo or it implies a vessel at most two to three times the Vesuvius' dimensions.
That's one of the reasons why I still believe that the 22km were a typo originally. There is other data that (at least seems to) contradict it as well. But as capi3101 said, this discussion has been repeated over and over in the last 18 years or so. We won't come to any point where all of us can be happy.
The good thing is that the KDN is not alone. There are other parts of WC lore that contradict each other at least as horribly. So if you do a mod or something, use whatever you like and don't talk about it. Just please don't use 22cm for the KDN
EDIT: WHAT? 63 on the Durango? 25% more than on the Yorktown? The Yorktown is the odd one out. I think it should have around 70 fighters instead of the canonical 40.
IIRC, the Pilum is there in Wing Commander I (well, The Secret Missions) but the Javelins are not... which is where that confusion comes from. Note that in Milk Run the Johnny Greene is down to its 'last two missiles' at the start of the story, which tells us... something.
This is the same game vs. manual issue as with the Drayman. The single-mount laser turret and the lone missile are what the game *actually* gives the Exeter, versus all the heavier turrets you see on the VDU and in the manual.
The Bengal is a headache. Wait a few days, I'm going to run through the new Academy DVDs this weekend and hopefully get a better turret count with placement information for her.
IIRC, the Victory is explicitly so out-of-date that it would have been retired if Confed were not so desperate to have any functional carriers that they could get. The main reason for Tolwyn packing her with the best officers under his command was because, despite all of her inferiority as a carrier, she was the best that he could spare for the Behemoth escort duty.It's just that if destroyers and cruisers carry as many fighters as a carrier I fail to see how it could make sense to build such a carrier. I mean: The Waterloo also has as many fighters as the Yorktown. It is just.... strange. The Yorktown is badly armored, at least two (smaller? and better armored) ships carry as many fighters as the Yorktown and so on. I don't understand the reason why it exists. It is poorly armored, slow, poorly armed and doesn't even carry that many fighters.
As for your WW2 example: Of course there were carriers with more and such with less fighters. But if they had had a cruiser or a destroyer that could carry as many fighters as one of these I doubt they would have used that carrier class.
The use of the phrasing "last two" does seem to imply that two is clearly less than half of the full missile complement, if not greatly less.Bandit LOAF said:IIRC, the Pilum is there in Wing Commander I (well, The Secret Missions) but the Javelins are not... which is where that confusion comes from. Note that in Milk Run the Johnny Greene is down to its 'last two missiles' at the start of the story, which tells us... something.
Whoa, whoa, hold it! Ships being removed from the game entirely? Tell us more!In addition, we also now have months of Quark backup files of Victory Streak from 1994. We've literally looked at half a dozen different versions of the manual and watched the editing process happen. You can see specifications (including ship lengths!) change back and forth, you can see ships be removed from the game entirely... but through the whole process there's a 22 kilometer dreadnaught.
Well, first up, we do not know anything about the Intrepid's original fighter compliment - you know, back when it was a destroyer. I'm pretty sure we're told in the novel that the hangar bay is something that was added on top of the ship (well, under it, to be specific), and not a part of the original design. I think the fact that the Intrepid has 63 fighters should be taken as an indication of just how extensive the modifications were - that it's not just a heavy destroyer any more. And of course, once you take into consideration how that fighter compliment really looks, it's not so impressive, either.It's just that if destroyers and cruisers carry as many fighters as a carrier I fail to see how it could make sense to build such a carrier. I mean: The Waterloo also has as many fighters as the Yorktown. It is just.... strange. The Yorktown is badly armored, at least two (smaller? and better armored) ships carry as many fighters as the Yorktown and so on. I don't understand the reason why it exists. It is poorly armored, slow, poorly armed and doesn't even carry that many fighters.
As for your WW2 example: Of course there were carriers with more and such with less fighters. But if they had had a cruiser or a destroyer that could carry as many fighters as one of these I doubt they would have used that carrier class.
Yeah. Funnily enough, though, all those people who insist that the dreadnought's length is not appropriate for its mass, always insist that it's the length that must be wrong, not the mass.As for the Hvar'kann's numbers, given the agreement of the various sources on the size, I would say that it's the mass that is incorrect, and somebody dropped 2-3 zeroes on the mass figure.
That's because the mass wouldn't be too far off compared to other ships.Yeah. Funnily enough, though, all those people who insist that the dreadnought's length is not appropriate for its mass, always insist that it's the length that must be wrong, not the mass.
On the contrary - for a 22km ship, the mass is clearly very far off compared to other ships .That's because the mass wouldn't be too far off compared to other ships.
But this is pure self-denial. You actually lie to yourself to justify your views. It's made eminently clear that the dreadnought was indeed meant to be 22km long. It was meant to be huge and invincible. It was meant to stand apart from other ships by a degree of magnitude - that's why it's not a few hundred meters longer (as you would have it) than other ships, nor twice as big, but ten times as big. To nail across the idea that no matter what ships the player can defeat single-handedly, this one is beyond all hope.As I said before, from a certain point of view it makes sense. For me it is mainly that I refuse to accept that Origin did something that... bad. It must be an error. If I tell myself that they didn't want to design it that badly it is easier to accept than if I know that they didn't do it accidentally but indeed thought it was a good idea (which it isn't IMO).
Ok, I can live with that explanation for the Durango. Its normal fighter complement might be around 20-30 and the BW guys just fit more into it than it originally could carry.
It's just that if destroyers and cruisers carry as many fighters as a carrier I fail to see how it could make sense to build such a carrier. I mean: The Waterloo also has as many fighters as the Yorktown. It is just.... strange. The Yorktown is badly armored, at least two (smaller? and better armored) ships carry as many fighters as the Yorktown and so on. I don't understand the reason why it exists. It is poorly armored, slow, poorly armed and doesn't even carry that many fighters.
As for your WW2 example: Of course there were carriers with more and such with less fighters. But if they had had a cruiser or a destroyer that could carry as many fighters as one of these I doubt they would have used that carrier class.
Like LOAF mentioned, it's obvious what the intention is... The ship in the first shot is a transport I guess very similar to the ones flashpacked in WC4. It's easier to make out in motion. But it is obviously dwarfed by Thrakhath's ship. It's the smaller circle in the second shot.
I may just go ahead and go with what's apparent in the image; one gun and one missile just seems, well, boring to me.
Whoa, whoa, hold it! Ships being removed from the game entirely? Tell us more!
I did manage to snag the lo-res episodes y'all had up at CIC a few months (years?) ago; it didn't look to me like the weapons emplacements were any clearer in any of the exterior shots of the Claw. But I'll go ahead and wait; I'm out of town this weekend as it is and probably won't get much time to work on the game as it is.