BWS status

[frostytheplebe]

I was just wondering what the diplomatic situation between Confed and the BWS was following the Black Lance incident. Were any reparations made to the Border Worlds? Like the stolen Space Lab? I know they weren't allowed to keep the Princeton, but what about the Dragon fighters, the leeched cruiser and the Bearcats?

In Prophecy the BWS is referred to as being quiet for quite some time. Did they become Xenophobic and just break off ties with Confed?

 

[MjavTheGray]

Yes, that's the question I'd love to be answered, too...

 

[Dyret]

I'm pretty sure things stolen by the Black Lance at least would be given back, and I don't think Confed would be too happy about the BW sitting on their lastest super ships.

 

[ChrisReid]

In the instructor ending, even the Intrepid appears to be flying for/with Confed again.

 

[RogueBanshee]

That's probably just Blair helping train BW pilots as a gesture of good-will. The UBW is still independent during Prophecy, and Intrepid is so out of date that I can't think of any reason for Confed to ask for her.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

That's probably just Blair helping train BW pilots as a gesture of good-will. The UBW is still independent during Prophecy, and Intrepid is so out of date that I can't think of any reason for Confed to ask for her.

Just out of curiosity, what confirmation do we have that the UBW ends up independent? Is there some reference to this in any of the novels (IE: False Colors)?

 

[Mancubus]

Star*Soldier has many refernces to UBW as independent nation. Also IIRC the Prophecy manual said something about it. Also in Prophecy itself Hawk said something about that he should have remained with UBW

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I was just wondering what the diplomatic situation between Confed and the BWS was following the Black Lance incident. Were any reparations made to the Border Worlds? Like the stolen Space Lab? I know they weren't allowed to keep the Princeton, but what about the Dragon fighters, the leeched cruiser and the Bearcats?

Well, here's the thing -- take a good long look at that 'stolen' Space Lab and tell me what logo is painted on the hull. It's either the 27th century home of Origin Systems or was a Confederation space lab to start out with.

We actually *don't* know about the Princeton (it's never mentioned again) -- but we do know that the Mt. St. Helens (seen/lost in Secret Ops) and the Intrepid apparently returned to Confederation colors.

In Prophecy the BWS is referred to as being quiet for quite some time. Did they become Xenophobic and just break off ties with Confed?

No, 'quiet' in this sense just means that there's not a war going on there. There is apparently a very deep relationship between the Confederation and the Union of Border Worlds. Take a look at this ISDN from the Secret Ops fiction: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/sofiction/p_2_isdn.html

Remember that the Hellespont is a *Union of Border Worlds* star system in 2681... and yet it's relying on the Confederation for both defense *and* reconstruction.

That's probably just Blair helping train BW pilots as a gesture of good-will. The UBW is still independent during Prophecy, and Intrepid is so out of date that I can't think of any reason for Confed to ask for her.

It's a nice thought, but I doubt it: *no one* aboard is wearing a Border Worlds flight suit or uniform (Blair, Maniac, Panther, pilots) and the ship is in the Sol System (and the head of the Confederation Senate is onboard.)

(There's a scene in the Wing Commander IV novel where Paladin mentions that the simple fact that the Border Worlds have an active carrier will be enough to convince the Confederation to go to war.)

Just out of curiosity, what confirmation do we have that the UBW ends up independent? Is there some reference to this in any of the novels (IE: False Colors)?

Well, it actually happens in Wing Commander IV -- the Union declares independance and then your goal in the game is to prevent the Confederation from going to war over the issue. An off-screen 'whoops, nevermind' would be somewhat odd.

... that said, you'll find the first post-Wing commander IV confirmation with Prophecy's Wing Commander Universe Map, which shows the Union of Border Worlds as a separate star nation.

 

[frostytheplebe]

We actually *don't* know about the Princeton (it's never mentioned again) -- but we do know that the Mt. St. Helens (seen/lost in Secret Ops) and the Intrepid apparently returned to Confederation colors.

.

That was the St. Helen's??? I don't know why, but i always thought it was the TCS Eisen. The Eisen was the only carrier early on in WCPSO that is referenced as being anywhere nearby.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, hit F1 during the scene and you'll jump into a cockpit which lets you target the ship.

That said, we also see the Vesuvius-class TCS McKinley in Secret Ops...

 

[Mancubus]

The Irony is that merely 30 years after UBW worlds left Confed because of "opressive policy" the Hellespont system Anounced it's leave from UBW - for the same reason

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Irony... or poorly veiled allegory ?

 

[RogueBanshee]

Why do people keep claming that the UBW gave Intrepid back to Confed? I know they gave the St. Helens and the Princeton back but they were captured/seized by the UBW during the fighting. The BWS Intrepid (or rather the TCS Delphi which was modified and became the BWS Intrepid) was sold the one of the Border World's miltia units prior to the fighting.

And why would Confed want the Intrepid anyway? It's a destroyer that's been outdated for 10 years with a hanger bay attached to it, and carrier/fighter support equipment rammed in anywhere that they could find room.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Why do people keep claming that the UBW gave Intrepid back to Confed? I know they gave the St. Helens and the Princeton back but they were captured/seized by the UBW during the fighting. The BWS Intrepid (or rather the TCS Delphi which was modified and became the BWS Intrepid) was sold the one of the Border World's miltia units prior to the fighting.

And why would Confed want the Intrepid anyway? It's a destroyer that's been outdated for 10 years with a hanger bay attached to it, and carrier/fighter support equipment rammed in anywhere that they could find room.

Think of the condition of the Confederation at that point. Thier Navy was only begining to rebuild from being in such bad shape that the Yorktown class was back on the front lines.

Confed may have won the war, but the losses were staggaring. The Pegasus and all the ships docked there, the Tiger's Claw and w/e support ships she had, the 6th Battle Fleet, the TCS Lexington, the TCS Concordia, to say nothing of the losses during the BoT.

My guess is that the Confederation was suffering from a shortage of equippment and took the Intrepid (at least temporarily) to aid in the transition from war to peace. We don't know how many carriers Confed still has, but its my guess that they were suffering from a huge shortage.

Preemptive Question:

So why retire the Victory then?

She was possibly too heavily damaged or old to Continue being useful? Its just a guess, but I think that makes sense.

 

[RogueBanshee]

She was possibly too heavily damaged or old to Continue being useful? Its just a guess, but I think that makes sense.

And a destroyer conversion from a class which was retired a decade earlier, running on two-thirds engines and power with a destroyed bridge and massive damage from torpedo hits and internal fires is somehow in better shape?

Also we know that the Intrepid was still under BW control after the fighting was over because Confed partially repaired her in exchange for the UBW having Intrepid ferry Blair to his new command.

Also the only evidence that Confed had the Intrepid is a scene showing Blair on her after the fighting, which isn't solid proof. Blair could have either been helping train BW pilots as part of a goodwill gesture or he could have been helping with training while the Intrepid was ferrying him to his new command.

 

[t.c.cgi]

A carrier is a carrier. If UBW possessing a carrier is a sure-fire reason for war, then it doesn't matter if it's a Nimitz converted for space flight. It's still a carrier.

Also retiring the Victory probably had more to do with memorializing the war than whether or not it was operable. It launched the flight that bombed Kilrah and was host to the surrender. After so many decades of bloody war the politicians probably screamed to have it retired and made into a museum, complete with a plaque over Blair's bunk.

 

[RogueBanshee]

A carrier is a carrier. If UBW possessing a carrier is a sure-fire reason for war, then it doesn't matter if it's a Nimitz converted for space flight. It's still a carrier.

And where is the proof that UBW isn't allowed to have carriers? If Landreich is allowed to possess carriers then I doubt that the UBW isn't.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Why do people keep claming that the UBW gave Intrepid back to Confed?

Did you miss my post or are you ignoring it for some reason? People are claiming this because of Wing Commander IV's winning endgame, in which the Intrepid is near Saturn and seems to have a Confederation crew.

Think of the condition of the Confederation at that point. Thier Navy was only begining to rebuild from being in such bad shape that the Yorktown class was back on the front lines.

I don't think it's this - it probably has more to do with the Confederation's objection to the Border Worlds having such a ship in the first place... or the fact that, pretty speech or not, it was ultimately captured in the Sol System.

Also the only evidence that Confed had the Intrepid is a scene showing Blair on her after the fighting, which isn't solid proof. Blair could have either been helping train BW pilots as part of a goodwill gesture or he could have been helping with training while the Intrepid was ferrying him to his new command.

Blair, Panther, Maniac, Maniac's squadron and the "batch of newbies" are all wearing Confederation flight suits (tan rather than gray) with Confederation patches (most telling of the scene's intentions, in my mind, is the fact that they bothered to make a new flight suit for Panther for her two second appearance in that scene...)

 

[RogueBanshee]

The novelization clearly states that the Intrepid is still a UBW ship, when it mentions that Blair and presumeably Maniac hitching a ride on it to their new commands, we're not sure when Panther returns to Confed or exactly when that cutscene took place. For all we now all of those pilots were assigned to Blair's command and just hitching a ride there.

And why would the UBW give the Princeton back while Confed was holding their flagship?

I don't think it's this - it probably has more to do with the Confederation's objection to the Border Worlds having such a ship in the first place...

What objection? If they didn't object to Landreich having carriers why would they object to the UBW having carriers after the UBW's independence was acknowledged?

or the fact that, pretty speech or not, it was ultimately captured in the Sol System.

The Princeton was captured in UBW space and it was returned.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The novelization clearly states that the Intrepid is still a UBW ship, when it mentions that Blair and presumeably Maniac hitching a ride on it to their new commands, we're not sure when Panther returns to Confed or exactly when that cutscene took place. For all we now all of those pilots were assigned to Blair's command and just hitching a ride there.

Your question wasn't why the Intrepid was a Confederation ship after Wing Commander IV, though - it was why people were saying that... and I think that has been answered quite appropriately.

I also don't understand why you're ignoring the scene we're talking about - Blair and company as flight instructors training a group of new pilots. This is stated directly in their dialogue. They aren't "hitching a ride" somewhere - it must take place after the events of the novel (which follow the trial directly.)

(Your read of the Wing Commander IV novelization is equally odd -- you have some problem with assuming the Intrepid's status based on the intent displayed in the game... but at the same time are perfectly willing to decide that 'presumably' Maniac would travel somewhere onboard her despite all indications otherwise? This is a very strange argument.)

And why would the UBW give the Princeton back while Confed was holding their flagship?

I'm not following the point or the intent of your argument. We've already seen the suggestion that the Confederation is responsible for defending the Border Worlds and we know very little other than that - if you're assuming the Intrepid becoming a Confederation ship means it was somehow stolen or witheld against anyones will then you're making too narrow an assumption. It's equally possible (rather, much more likely) that the status of all these ships (along with who was responsible for defending whom)was decided by whatever treaty the Confederation and the Border Worlds eventually worked out.

We also know very little about who was running the Intrepid and the other ships in the Border Worlds' fleet - nearly everyone we are familiar with seems to have returned to the Confederation after the incident. We also don't know where the ship came from in the first place. It's quite possible that it was provided by or was crewed by forces which opted to remain with the Confederation after hostilities ceased.

And finally, we never see the Princeton again after its appearance in the Wing Commander IV novel - we have no idea if or when it was returned.

What objection? If they didn't object to Landreich having carriers why would they object to the UBW having carriers after the UBW's independence was acknowledged?

The objection from the Wing Commander IV novel cited above.

The Confederation sold the Landreich surplus escort carriers twenty years after they became an independant star nation - and regretted it before Wing Commander IV started. It isn't the same situation.

The Princeton was captured in UBW space and it was returned.

No, it wasn't and no, we don't know that. The Princeton was captured in a Confederation spacedock in a Confederation system which the Border Worlds attacked.