A question in morality
- Thread starter Lunitari
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In the game I never truly hated the Kilrathi in general and I was ok with the surrender. I felt very betrayed when Hobbes took off though, and I went after him for the reason why he did it, then shot him down.
I did hate Trakhath though. It sickened me that I had to work with him during the Special Ops in WC2 on the Bonnie Heather. Not the mention the way how he kills Angel.
I did hate Trakhath though. It sickened me that I had to work with him during the Special Ops in WC2 on the Bonnie Heather. Not the mention the way how he kills Angel.
)
Anyway, back to the topic on hand...
I personally like the Kilrathi, but nothing against them personally, especially since it's hard to hold a grudge against an inanimate object (The Computer). But realistically, after hearing Meleks speech, the Kilrathi people were just being whipped into war frenzy by their power hungry leaders, which is compunded by their natural agressiveness, so I never really blamed them. I've never really had and emotional attatchment to hating the Kilrathi, and even I like to be immersed in the story of a game. The Hobbes thing though REALLY made me want to dust some cats, and also after the Behemoth was destroyed, I was all geared up to see some good explosion cutscenes.
Man, you must have spend a lot of time thinking about that one.
Good idea. Shouldn't the Kilrathi have bid for the Battle of Earth?
I thought flying with Kilrathi wingmen in Prophecy was cool, even though they were flying crappy Vaktoth and Dralthi rustbuckets from Wc3. I did like flying those ships in the enabled simulator, though.
I personally like the Kilrathi, but nothing against them personally, especially since it's hard to hold a grudge against an inanimate object (The Computer). But realistically, after hearing Meleks speech, the Kilrathi people were just being whipped into war frenzy by their power hungry leaders, which is compunded by their natural agressiveness, so I never really blamed them. I've never really had and emotional attatchment to hating the Kilrathi, and even I like to be immersed in the story of a game. The Hobbes thing though REALLY made me want to dust some cats, and also after the Behemoth was destroyed, I was all geared up to see some good explosion cutscenes.
Man, you must have spend a lot of time thinking about that one.
Good idea. Shouldn't the Kilrathi have bid for the Battle of Earth?
I thought flying with Kilrathi wingmen in Prophecy was cool, even though they were flying crappy Vaktoth and Dralthi rustbuckets from Wc3. I did like flying those ships in the enabled simulator, though.
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
McGruff said:
Hey, I didn't say I approved (their more or less one step above aquaintance as opposed to being my buddies). Atleast they're not just sport hunters, killing just to mount a carcass in their den, etc. Mountain Lions, and other big cats aren't exactly endangered here (not illegal with right licensce) , but I too would question why they even tried it in the first place.
Lots of reasons.
In the US, at least (and this will surprise people, but seems to be the case in Northeast PA), hunters are some of the biggest environmentalists I know - and I don't hunt.
As far as what gets picked to hunt - It varies by country and region. In the US at least, hunting is regulated by state and federal authorities. Generally, hunting is done: A. To reduce overpopulation; B. To generate revenue to finance fish&wildlife programs including endangered species stuff; C. Because local economies, which would have little else by way of revenue sources, depend on hunters and the like.
WHAT gets hunted? Generally, overpopulated species. Deer are a favorite because of that; In the Northeastern US (and I imagine in Ontario and Quebec, too) they've started entering suburbia. That's dangerous for man and animal.
Bear are more opposed (definite cuteness factor here), but the same issue arises. They're wandering into suburbia. Such encounters can be deadly for bear and people alike.
Mountain Lions/Bobcats/Cougars (same thing, aren't they?) are iffy, because they're still an endangered species. But again, they're running into suburbia more often.
In the US, at least (and this will surprise people, but seems to be the case in Northeast PA), hunters are some of the biggest environmentalists I know - and I don't hunt.
As far as what gets picked to hunt - It varies by country and region. In the US at least, hunting is regulated by state and federal authorities. Generally, hunting is done: A. To reduce overpopulation; B. To generate revenue to finance fish&wildlife programs including endangered species stuff; C. Because local economies, which would have little else by way of revenue sources, depend on hunters and the like.
WHAT gets hunted? Generally, overpopulated species. Deer are a favorite because of that; In the Northeastern US (and I imagine in Ontario and Quebec, too) they've started entering suburbia. That's dangerous for man and animal.
Bear are more opposed (definite cuteness factor here), but the same issue arises. They're wandering into suburbia. Such encounters can be deadly for bear and people alike.
Mountain Lions/Bobcats/Cougars (same thing, aren't they?) are iffy, because they're still an endangered species. But again, they're running into suburbia more often.
Bobcats are more like a Lynx. Not that big of a cat. Mountain lion = cougar (in most regions, anyway. semantics differ)
Cougar's are big cats. Bobcats are much smaller. A cougar could kill a person if it felt it was cornered. A bobcat probably couldn't.
I've seen my share of bears, and even a few bobcats but the cougars tend to be much more evasive of people, as they're frightened by them. Trouble is, once they start getting used to people, problems start popping up where they (bears, cougars, etc.) get very agressive.
Bear sausage isn't too bad, btw. I've been told that cougar is fairly decent, too.
Cougar's are big cats. Bobcats are much smaller. A cougar could kill a person if it felt it was cornered. A bobcat probably couldn't.
I've seen my share of bears, and even a few bobcats but the cougars tend to be much more evasive of people, as they're frightened by them. Trouble is, once they start getting used to people, problems start popping up where they (bears, cougars, etc.) get very agressive.
Bear sausage isn't too bad, btw. I've been told that cougar is fairly decent, too.
McGruff
Banned
Funny you mention that, I've spent a lot of my life outdoors and seen about a jillion bobcats, but never a cougar. Even though I've heard them growl at night and seen their fresh tracks in the dirt.
My aunt has a house in the country and has a life-size stone statue of a deer in the garden exactly where the local real deer like to bed down. One night she heard a loud crash and the next day the 200 pound deer statue was on its side with the head knocked clean off. I guess it was the only one that didn't run away when a cougar charged the group. Poor kitty must have broken its jaw.
My aunt has a house in the country and has a life-size stone statue of a deer in the garden exactly where the local real deer like to bed down. One night she heard a loud crash and the next day the 200 pound deer statue was on its side with the head knocked clean off. I guess it was the only one that didn't run away when a cougar charged the group. Poor kitty must have broken its jaw.
Delance said:
Edibility usually ranks number one.
Lethality usually ranks number two. (though it can replace edibility depending on the circumstance/region)
Skill required to kill ranks number three. (though that will definitely be different depending on who you talk to)
Particularily with fish, the uglier it is, the better it tastes. Example, Ling Cod: ugly as sin, yet very tasty, especially when fried up with some chips, err, taters.
Whenever someone tells me that they fish "catch and release", I ask them why. They say, "It's so much more sporting, and it's more fun when you don't kill them." To which I reply, "oh, so you torture fish for fun, you sicko.
" I then explain that I love fishing, but could never understand the desire to pointlessly cause a living creature unecessary pain and bring it to death's door, only to let it go. A fish can die after being released, and is a easy target for, say, a hawk/eagle/osprey. You could also kill it by hooking it badly. If you're going to hunt/fish, make the animal's death worthwile: fire up the barbie. 
(Note: I love fishing, and would hunt if I had the time/money/hunting partners)Hmm. I think I'll stop by the grocery store on the way home from work.
But back to topic:
I always took care of the peaceful Kats in WCIV and WCV. I figured that,
1. Melek could have killed me, and nobody would have ever known. Yet, he didn't.
2. The war is over. The Kats that screwed with me and my life are dead. I killed them myself.
In WCV, I was still thinking like Blair, but Casey thought similarily: "They aren't the enemy any more." (or something like that)
Reading Fleet Action recently gave me even more views on the Kats. Vicious, yes. Capable of coexistence? Regardless of what Thrakhath and even Angel said, yes.
A society built on honor can be peaceful once they realize there is honor in friendship.
I always took care of the peaceful Kats in WCIV and WCV. I figured that,
1. Melek could have killed me, and nobody would have ever known. Yet, he didn't.
2. The war is over. The Kats that screwed with me and my life are dead. I killed them myself.
In WCV, I was still thinking like Blair, but Casey thought similarily: "They aren't the enemy any more." (or something like that)
Reading Fleet Action recently gave me even more views on the Kats. Vicious, yes. Capable of coexistence? Regardless of what Thrakhath and even Angel said, yes.
A society built on honor can be peaceful once they realize there is honor in friendship.
Dahan
Rear Admiral
Back to the original question...How many Kilrathi defected to Confed??
Now Hobbes was in command of a captial ship (carrier, cruiser !?!? what ever) there would have been a fair number of Kilrathi crew onboard. A full complement or a Skeleton crew, we have Kirha hrai Hunter nar Aussie and Hobbes, I dont remember many of the others that was ever mention.
Hobbes was a sleeper agent whereas there were actually Kilathi that were genuine in join the Confed forces...so what gives!?!?
Now Hobbes was in command of a captial ship (carrier, cruiser !?!? what ever) there would have been a fair number of Kilrathi crew onboard. A full complement or a Skeleton crew, we have Kirha hrai Hunter nar Aussie and Hobbes, I dont remember many of the others that was ever mention.
Hobbes was a sleeper agent whereas there were actually Kilathi that were genuine in join the Confed forces...so what gives!?!?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The ship was a Fralthi light carrier conversion. The crew didn't defect willingly, and thus ended up in a POW camp. The events of the Ras Nik'hra's defection are discussed in detail (from Hobbes and Kirha's point of view) in Freedom Flight.
The other well known Kilrathi defector was Hajjnah, a Kilrathi scientist who defected to the TCS Viking carrying plans for cloaking technology and the new Jrathek-class fighters.
There were certainly other cases of Kilrathi and humans working together -- like the four 'defecting' star systems in Wing Commander 2. They joined up with the Confederation as the lesser of two evils because they felt oppressed by the empire...
criticalmass
Vice Admiral
Don't forget the resistance groups on Kilrah itself. Some of the Kilrathi were discontent with the way the emperor was running things, and tried to establish new ways of seeing things. In the beginning of Freedom Flight, Hobbes is talking to a Sivar priestess who gives the impression that she has others behind her, plotting for change. She is attacked and supposedly killed after the scene, but the whole setup gives the idea of civil unrest among the people.
So the question of morality needs to be asked on a general or individual level:
Are THE Kilrathi the enemy? Yes.
Is every single one an enemy? No.
So the question of morality needs to be asked on a general or individual level:
Are THE Kilrathi the enemy? Yes.
Is every single one an enemy? No.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Good Cats, Bad Cats 
I'm undecided personally. When you take entire species like humanity or the Kilrathi...I think it comes down to having a few good people, a few bad people, and a bunch of people in-between. Therefore, I kind of envision there being a Melek for every Thrakhath. I kind of envision the period after WC3 as being one of a mutual respect between the two races...of course that respect could fuel anything from more conflicts to peaceful friendships in my mind.
Personally, I had no problems flying with the Kilrathi in Prophecy. In their inferior fighters, they were kind of the under-dogs (cats) in Prophecy, so it only seemed right to help them out, even if they were the enemy two games back. Even if you're one of these diehard honorable warrior types, I imagine you wouldn't take a profound level of pleasure in smacking around warriors ill-equipped to fight you on equal terms anyway. So personally, I had/have no problems flying with them...and besides, if they ever wanted to step out of line, you could always shoot them down at that point anyway, right?
At least for me personally (and as I intend to have it in the little story I'm still writing), I envision a huge struggle within the Kilrathi Clans during the period of Prophecy...where you'd have your idealists who want to work together with the humans, but also your vengeful warlords who can't let go of the fact that their homeworld was destroyed by the "apes."
But I think it all kind of boils down to societies in general...I mean as I'm explaining it, you're never completely sure which Kilrathi you could trust and which you couldn't. Is that so different from humanity itself? Playing through Wing Commander 4 the first time, I was kind of curious who I could trust through the end and who I couldn't...even those you COULD trust seemed to flip-flop on a couple occasions as situations developed.
So I always figure it'd be similar with the Kilrathi...some could be true allies to the bitter end, while others might anxiously await the opportune moment to betray your trust and annihilate you and your entire species. And then there might be those who flip-flop between the two extremes or sit indifferently in the middle, not caring if humankind is eradicated or not.
I don't know...it just makes sense to me that in a society as diverse as one that had both Thrakhath and Melek that it can't be all one way or the other...but that there'd have to be diversity in their philosophies - diversities that could cause similar internal struggles like what we witnessed with humanity in WC4 and would, in my mind, make decent stories in the period after Prophecy.
But I digress...the issue at hand is whether or not I'd fly with the Kilrathi. And again, the answer is yes...because it just makes more sense to me than the alternative - genocide...and I'd like to think there'd be cats that would be equally as willing to stick their necks out for me too for the sake of a hopeful future with both species in some level of harmony. So that's just the way I see it...I don't know...maybe that makes me a hippy or something.
- FireFalcon ~};^
I'm undecided personally. When you take entire species like humanity or the Kilrathi...I think it comes down to having a few good people, a few bad people, and a bunch of people in-between. Therefore, I kind of envision there being a Melek for every Thrakhath. I kind of envision the period after WC3 as being one of a mutual respect between the two races...of course that respect could fuel anything from more conflicts to peaceful friendships in my mind.
Personally, I had no problems flying with the Kilrathi in Prophecy. In their inferior fighters, they were kind of the under-dogs (cats) in Prophecy, so it only seemed right to help them out, even if they were the enemy two games back. Even if you're one of these diehard honorable warrior types, I imagine you wouldn't take a profound level of pleasure in smacking around warriors ill-equipped to fight you on equal terms anyway. So personally, I had/have no problems flying with them...and besides, if they ever wanted to step out of line, you could always shoot them down at that point anyway, right?
At least for me personally (and as I intend to have it in the little story I'm still writing), I envision a huge struggle within the Kilrathi Clans during the period of Prophecy...where you'd have your idealists who want to work together with the humans, but also your vengeful warlords who can't let go of the fact that their homeworld was destroyed by the "apes."
But I think it all kind of boils down to societies in general...I mean as I'm explaining it, you're never completely sure which Kilrathi you could trust and which you couldn't. Is that so different from humanity itself? Playing through Wing Commander 4 the first time, I was kind of curious who I could trust through the end and who I couldn't...even those you COULD trust seemed to flip-flop on a couple occasions as situations developed.
So I always figure it'd be similar with the Kilrathi...some could be true allies to the bitter end, while others might anxiously await the opportune moment to betray your trust and annihilate you and your entire species. And then there might be those who flip-flop between the two extremes or sit indifferently in the middle, not caring if humankind is eradicated or not.
I don't know...it just makes sense to me that in a society as diverse as one that had both Thrakhath and Melek that it can't be all one way or the other...but that there'd have to be diversity in their philosophies - diversities that could cause similar internal struggles like what we witnessed with humanity in WC4 and would, in my mind, make decent stories in the period after Prophecy.
But I digress...the issue at hand is whether or not I'd fly with the Kilrathi. And again, the answer is yes...because it just makes more sense to me than the alternative - genocide...and I'd like to think there'd be cats that would be equally as willing to stick their necks out for me too for the sake of a hopeful future with both species in some level of harmony. So that's just the way I see it...I don't know...maybe that makes me a hippy or something.
- FireFalcon ~};^
BigsWickDagger
Spaceman
That is exactly how I approached the games when I played them through for the very first time all of those years ago. I never thought twice about blasting Kilrathi- it was them or me, and I was usually out numbered, out gunned, and flying with a piss-poor wingman. So sad, too bad for the cats- they weren't going to cut me any slack so consider the favor returned. Still, I found it truly hard to actually hate something from a fictional universe. It was more of a there's-the-enemy-go-get-'em scenario.McGruff said:
For me WC III really put a face to the Kilrathi, but the "morality" of it all never came into question. I merely played the game as outlined above. I can remember the first time I saw Hobbes standing there waiting to talk to me and thinking, "Whaaaaaat???" I just did not trust him. I didn't care what anyone else (including Blair) said or thought or did. For about the first 6-8 missions I kept waiting for him to pull in on my six during a dogfight and take a cheap shot at me. And of course, once you do start to really believe he is your friend, he betrays you with no explanation (PC version) and you are left saying, "I knew it, I knew it, I knew it."
I didn't trust Hobbes when I first played WC2 because I thought he was shooting my Rapier. But I got over it when I realized that ALL of your wingmen do it!!! (Especially Spirit, I HATED flying with her, even though I liked her on the carrier.)
Even after I had come to trust Hobbes and he betrayed me, I never hated the Kilrathi. There have been some real evil, annoying, pain-in-the-petunias wanna-shove-em-out-the-airlock humans (Tolwyn, Seether, Foreign Minister Jamison, Jazz, Gov Menesch, Maniac at times) and we've also had our share of honorable Kilrathi (Hassa, Kirha, Baron J, Murragh and a bunch of kats already mentioned a dozen times in this thread) so race shouldn't be a factor. Why would someone WANT to have more enemies? I mean, when I play Priv I make friends with everyone I can; that's less ordnance I have to pay for. Killing for the sake of killing just doesnt cut it for me (insert here Blair's lecture to Catscratch about the provoked warrior)
Even after I had come to trust Hobbes and he betrayed me, I never hated the Kilrathi. There have been some real evil, annoying, pain-in-the-petunias wanna-shove-em-out-the-airlock humans (Tolwyn, Seether, Foreign Minister Jamison, Jazz, Gov Menesch, Maniac at times) and we've also had our share of honorable Kilrathi (Hassa, Kirha, Baron J, Murragh and a bunch of kats already mentioned a dozen times in this thread) so race shouldn't be a factor. Why would someone WANT to have more enemies? I mean, when I play Priv I make friends with everyone I can; that's less ordnance I have to pay for. Killing for the sake of killing just doesnt cut it for me (insert here Blair's lecture to Catscratch about the provoked warrior)