A discussion on the true nature of the Nephilim
- Thread starter $tormin
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The hull couldn't be oxidized ANYWAY, considering that the Confed uses platolum for it's ships. They used isometal in WC3-4...which pissed me off, when I downloaded the Dragon for SO and had to compare the values for the WC4 Excalibur, the WCSO Excalibur, and the WC4 Dragon to get the correct hull value for the SO Dragon...
It was probably a bit more than a recon-in-force, but much less than a main battlefleet. After all, they dedicated two Tiamats, which were the largest ships that they could fit through the Kilrah Gate (and them just barely...the Tiamat had to fold it's petals to fit through). With that being the case, they probably wouldn't send the largest capship capable of passage through the gate unless the force was a rath, a beachead...a force that was supposed to beat the crap out of anyone around and secure the area.
Oh, they didn't count on Midway and it's giant plasma cannon and it's fighter compement and it's aces and the fighting superiority of Confed...but they got a lot more forces than we thought through the gate, since after WCP, they didn't have any functional gates, and the entire SO force was just the leftover force.
It was probably a bit more than a recon-in-force, but much less than a main battlefleet. After all, they dedicated two Tiamats, which were the largest ships that they could fit through the Kilrah Gate (and them just barely...the Tiamat had to fold it's petals to fit through). With that being the case, they probably wouldn't send the largest capship capable of passage through the gate unless the force was a rath, a beachead...a force that was supposed to beat the crap out of anyone around and secure the area.
Oh, they didn't count on Midway and it's giant plasma cannon and it's fighter compement and it's aces and the fighting superiority of Confed...but they got a lot more forces than we thought through the gate, since after WCP, they didn't have any functional gates, and the entire SO force was just the leftover force.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
How do you know? Tiamats might be insignificant compared to the rest of the Nephilim fleet. Like you said, that's just the biggest they could fit through the gate. Maybe they have BIGGER gates and BIGGER ship, and alot of them. Perhaps the two invasions into Confed space were not even recon in force to them. Perhaps to them it was a light recon. You, nor does anyone, know how many ships and what types of ships the bugs have.
To go to a famous quote often said by LOAF, "Just because we don't see it in a game, doesn't mean it's not there!"
To go to a famous quote often said by LOAF, "Just because we don't see it in a game, doesn't mean it's not there!"
Because logic sees me through rough waters, that's how I know.
There was only one incursion into Confed space that we know of...the one through the Kilrah gate. Therefore, the force in SO was, in all likelihood, the stuff thrown through the Kilrah Gate when the cutscene camera wasn't looking.
The Kilrah Gate probably took a good amount of resources to make (like a dovin basal capable of performing a Ygrand's Core). Otherwise, the Nephilim would be opening gates all over the place. They tried constructing another gate underneath out noses, with their Stellar Accretion device at Proxima Centauri. Therefore, the one they did make, they'd make as large as they possibly could...or as large as they were willing.
Their main fleet was being lead by a Tiamat, which had to squeeze to make it though the gate. They probably don't have anything larger, and if they do, it's probably their flagship...something they didn't want to risk sending through the gate. Therefore, the Tiamats are probably either the largest or the second largest ships that they, er, grow...otherwise, they'd make the gate larger to accomodate them. And in the losing cutscene, they take a Tiamat to Earth...not something larger.
Maybe it was just a light recon...but I doubt it. You don't send some of your dreadnoughts on a RIF. This was the beachhead, to secure the front for the invasion...and they do invade, should you die or eject in the last mission of WCP.
[Edited by Nep Parth on 05-27-2001 at 21:37]
There was only one incursion into Confed space that we know of...the one through the Kilrah gate. Therefore, the force in SO was, in all likelihood, the stuff thrown through the Kilrah Gate when the cutscene camera wasn't looking.
The Kilrah Gate probably took a good amount of resources to make (like a dovin basal capable of performing a Ygrand's Core). Otherwise, the Nephilim would be opening gates all over the place. They tried constructing another gate underneath out noses, with their Stellar Accretion device at Proxima Centauri. Therefore, the one they did make, they'd make as large as they possibly could...or as large as they were willing.
Their main fleet was being lead by a Tiamat, which had to squeeze to make it though the gate. They probably don't have anything larger, and if they do, it's probably their flagship...something they didn't want to risk sending through the gate. Therefore, the Tiamats are probably either the largest or the second largest ships that they, er, grow...otherwise, they'd make the gate larger to accomodate them. And in the losing cutscene, they take a Tiamat to Earth...not something larger.
Maybe it was just a light recon...but I doubt it. You don't send some of your dreadnoughts on a RIF. This was the beachhead, to secure the front for the invasion...and they do invade, should you die or eject in the last mission of WCP.
[Edited by Nep Parth on 05-27-2001 at 21:37]
No, the Bugs don't seem to go half-assed with anything...as soon as they detected you, there was an alien cruiser en route to Midway...
They did keep underestimating us. But then, with the losses they were taking...which may have seemed horrendous to us, but not to them...they would have realized that they needed more firepower. At least, they would have realized that there was a danger to the Gate.
Unless they didn't have any more firepower. They were spreading there forces all over the sectors; Kilrah, Vega, Sol, you name it. They were sending a big amount of ships through...you don't do that unless you're using everything you've got. The Nephilim threat appeared to be over once Cereberus finished operations (though it did go on with new orders...).
They did keep underestimating us. But then, with the losses they were taking...which may have seemed horrendous to us, but not to them...they would have realized that they needed more firepower. At least, they would have realized that there was a danger to the Gate.
Unless they didn't have any more firepower. They were spreading there forces all over the sectors; Kilrah, Vega, Sol, you name it. They were sending a big amount of ships through...you don't do that unless you're using everything you've got. The Nephilim threat appeared to be over once Cereberus finished operations (though it did go on with new orders...).
I always thought this was nothing more than a scout, or advanced section of the Bug Fleet due to the fact that, while flying to destroy the cooling towers on the 1st gate, Dekker and his Marines were scanning the Bug side of the gate and he said, "There is a massive fleet approaching" (or something of the sort). Thus it seemed to me that if there is something that seemed big still coming, comparing that to what Confed had already faced, it must have been truely huge. And with that possibility, it leads to 1 of 2 things A) Is that there total force?....or.... B) Is that but ONE of their fleets?
Seems to me like it would be but one of their fleets, as it would be terrible tactics to send your entire force through that gate and leave your system undefended (even if you DIDN'T expect to run into opposition, once you did you would have to pull people back, even if you considered them inferior).
However, on the other side of that-I don't think that they were "Far superior" to Confed, even in numbers. I'll agree that they have more people in their service, quite a few more!, and that Confed probably has better technology/current equipment, however, Confed was not even remotely prepared (even in SO) for what they were up against. There were only some isolated fights that were seen between Confed and the Bugs, and some of those Confed won too. That just proves that the quickly scrounged up forces of Confed are at least a match for the Bug's Advanced Guard, and leads to think that Confed might stand a chance against the Bug Fleet.
(Whew! That was winded!)
Seems to me like it would be but one of their fleets, as it would be terrible tactics to send your entire force through that gate and leave your system undefended (even if you DIDN'T expect to run into opposition, once you did you would have to pull people back, even if you considered them inferior).
However, on the other side of that-I don't think that they were "Far superior" to Confed, even in numbers. I'll agree that they have more people in their service, quite a few more!, and that Confed probably has better technology/current equipment, however, Confed was not even remotely prepared (even in SO) for what they were up against. There were only some isolated fights that were seen between Confed and the Bugs, and some of those Confed won too. That just proves that the quickly scrounged up forces of Confed are at least a match for the Bug's Advanced Guard, and leads to think that Confed might stand a chance against the Bug Fleet.
(Whew! That was winded!)
Supdon3
Kal-El
Nep, that still isnt any reason why there couldnt be bigger ships still on the other side of the worm hole. Its possible that the Kilrah wormhole couldnt be opened any bigger. Or they didnt need to for a recon force. Massive capital ships are hardly scout material. Its entirely possible that the wormhole they were going to open using the twin suns would have been able to use that infinite power source to power a gate large enough to move a planet through if need be. You cant say indefinitly they didnt have anything bigger.
Let's say that it was a Recon (which I agree with), if those ships encountered in SO were part of the same force encountered in WCP that means their recon fleets alone number at least (a guess*) 2 Tiamats, 6 Leviathans, 8 Hydras + the same for Destroyers...This is a Recon only Force!!, so I say again --> 
* A request:
The next time somebody plays WCP, could you count the numbers and types of Capships encountered (I would do it myself but disk 1 is damaged and I cannot play it anymore
)
* A request:
The next time somebody plays WCP, could you count the numbers and types of Capships encountered (I would do it myself but disk 1 is damaged and I cannot play it anymore
)Dekker's reference could mean anything. The massive fleet could just have been a goodly number of cruisers and destroyers of the type we've already encountered. Besides the bugs probably don't have anything bigger than a Tiamat since the Tiamat's a dreadnought. And dreadnought means biggest of the big. You might say that Intell's jumping the gun in calling the Tiamat a dreadnought but be honest. Do the bugs NEED a ship bigger than the Tiamat? What would a bigger ship be capable of doing that a Tiamat couldn't?
Supdon3
Kal-El
A larger ship could shrug off tons of torpedo hits, have redundant system after redundant system set up, carry massive weapons of destruction, carry fleets of fighters. Look at the Kilrathi dreadnaught. Its pretty unbeatable in a head to head fight.
Dreadnaughts ARE the biggest but that was intell's designations and it was the biggest that they had in Terran/Kilrathi space. We DONT know if they have anything bigger.
Dreadnaughts ARE the biggest but that was intell's designations and it was the biggest that they had in Terran/Kilrathi space. We DONT know if they have anything bigger.
A big ship wouldn't be able to shrug off tons of torpedoes in WCP. You just target the bridge and engines. Plus the torps can be backed up with Heavy Plasma.
As for the Kilrathi WC3 dreadnought. The reason that thing takes forever to get rid of is because you are on your OWN. What kind of a dreadnought is it if 1 fighter can get rid of it?
As for the Kilrathi WC3 dreadnought. The reason that thing takes forever to get rid of is because you are on your OWN. What kind of a dreadnought is it if 1 fighter can get rid of it?
But a big ship attracts a lot of attention. For example the British pursued the German battleship Bismarck across the Atlantic and sank it before it could do truly serious damage. Not to mention that it is a tremendous propaganda coup to sink such an important enemy capital ship.
It does seem probable that the Tiamat is the largest ship they have, but even assuming it is or isn't, that point only brings to light whether they are some sort of flagship or not. Guessing the number of total carriers/cruisers/etc. would prove to add more to the challenge Confed would have in taking on what MAY be a big fleet. (It would make sense that Dekker was talking about "basic carriers" and stuff more than anything, I'll agree with that) If Tiamat's, or something larger, are around, it would only complicate an already dangerous issue for the Confederation. Although, I think that if they had a dozen of those, and Ship-killers to boot, with a gaggle of cruisers and stuff, I'd just wave bye-bye to Confed. *laughs*
It does make me wonder those, if the Vessuvius and the Midway joined up with the Cerberus, and a host of Confed/Kilrathi/BWU/etc. ships, I don't know if even this "supposedly large" fleet could handle it. After all, with all the top grade equipment, and all the vets from the Kilrathi war, it makes sense that the Bugs would have quite a time dealing with all the battle hardened pilots, assuming they still fly. (And those in the BWU are mostly vets from my memory. Or Privateers.)
It does make me wonder those, if the Vessuvius and the Midway joined up with the Cerberus, and a host of Confed/Kilrathi/BWU/etc. ships, I don't know if even this "supposedly large" fleet could handle it. After all, with all the top grade equipment, and all the vets from the Kilrathi war, it makes sense that the Bugs would have quite a time dealing with all the battle hardened pilots, assuming they still fly. (And those in the BWU are mostly vets from my memory. Or Privateers.)
Supdon3
Kal-El
Whose to say they only have one bigger ship? The Bismark and the Yamato were both alone in their classes. Larger ships could be a standard class that has several ships. We only saw one class of carrier, one class of destroyer/cruisers. Confed has at least six classes of carriers alone. If you agree that it was a recon fleet, then it is likely that they have heavier versions of classifications of ships.
Supdon3
Kal-El
Skyfire, it would be possible for Confed to defeat such a fleet with its fighters. Unlike in every major battle in the WC books, battles like Midway were won because one side's fighters couldnt find the other's ships. If Confed can manage to track the bug's ships without giving away the location of thier own carriers, they could defeat any fleet that attacks.