Wing Commander Ranks and Uniforms

[Repleetah]

Hi all!,

I know there's been lots of talk about WC ranks, rank insignia's and uniforms and I've read most of them, but I still have a couple of questions:

1. Why were the rank insignia's changed in WC III, WC IV and V (Prophecy) from the ones shown in WC I (+ add-ons) and WC II (+ add-ons) ? The rank insignia's and uniforms from the first games were similar to what we have now in the military (either flight wings or TCS insignia on the collar) and the rank insignia's on the shoulders (same rank insignia's as we use today), then on the chest the wings were on the left and also the ribbons (in reality you do see your ribbons on your uniform depending on what class uniform you're wearing, but you don't wear your medals, only in full dress uniform) and on the right was the name tag.

Now I understand that confed changed the colors of the uniforms a bit as you can already see in WC II (although Col. Halcyon was already wearing a blue uniform in WC I), but I can't imagine that confed would suddenly change the rank insignia's... I mean, from a cool silver eagle for Colonel (as seen in WC I - WC II) to a (imo dull) single gold bar with a horizontal stripe at the top, and above that the insignia is now on the chest instead of the shoulders.... why? And what are the weird markings on the collars mean? And why was there a severe cut back on the number of ribbons? Christopher Blair got much more then only the few shown in WC III and WC IV. He's the most decorated officer in Confed history for crying out loud! Think about all the ribbons for the individual medals and what about the campaign ribbons and ace of aces ribbons and such... Majors like Maniac don't even wear ribbons on their uniform anymore in WC III and WC IV.

I know these are games and I shouldn't worry about this so much, but I'm just wondering why the change....

2. Another question of mine is about the Admiral rank. In WC IV Tolwyn is a full Admiral, but is he the commander of one fleet (like the 14th Fleet) or is he the commander of the navy? I mean, in our own (real) history, there are full Admirals that are in command of a fleet (like the Atlantic Fleet or Pacific Fleet) and in wartime (like WWII) there were also Fleet Admirals (5-stars) who where in command of the 'regular' Admirals and there has even been a single Admiral of the Navy (6-stars) who was in charge of the entire navy. So, is Tolwyn in WC IV in command of the navy or just of a single fleet? Is he like the full Admiral we have nowadays or more like a Fleet Admiral in wartime? And last... maybe the Space Marshal rank is more like the Fleet Admiral rank and thus in command of the 'regular' Admirals or more like the Admiral of the Navy? I even heard somewhere that a Space Marshal would be in command of the entire Confed Military!? Oh btw, is Tolwyn also part of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as full Admiral or maybe when he became Space Marshal?

Just wondering... thx in advance for your thoughts or answers.

 

[TransAm]

I always thought that as space marshall Tolwyn was being given command of the entire confed millitary. I'm sure indviual planets have millitas so he's proably not in charge of them but he has to have a way to coperate with them. Maybe like a rankl egual to our modern Sec-DoD and chairmen of the joint chiefs together. Really though I just don't know.
I think before he was space marshal Tolwyn was more like a a 4 star, his command was something like being in command of all "space preparedness" or just getting ready. That would be a broad range command that would corupt him with power.

The ranks in WC seem to have no logic. Unless Blair is a marine why is he a colonel in the navy, in the navy a colonel is an o-6 and the rest of the branches a colonel is an o-6. Oh I like the idea of a "full bird colonel" (or bull sometimes).
A LT in the navy is an 0-3, or a captian in all other branches. There are no majors in the navy (except in the marnies).
They most defently would have "tour of duty" ribbons and personal conduct ribbons (no stds for 6 months type thing), and so forth, and I do think that maverick you have a walkboard of medals because hes played by the rules, but ofcourse he did piss of Tolwyn.
Manic might not have had so many medals. He'd have his theater ribbons and his gold wings and such but I doubt he'd have something like a "meritorious achievement" because hes was to nuts and rebelious.
Back to ranks, where did commador come from, isn't confed suposed to be the future of the U.S. of A or something. That a British rank (no offence tended to my british comrads) but would Tolwyn not have been a Rear Admiral Lower or upper half? The Admiral in the Board Worlds was a Rear or a Vice Admiral wasn't he?

Basically when they made WC they didn't have any kind of military advisor, at least not from a nation that has seperate branchs of the armed forces. A place like china.

 

[Nomad Terror]

Well the pilots in the WC games were generally part of the Space Force, not the navy...

And being 700 years in the future, is it really fair to hold it to the same rank structure we use today? In the 1300s did armed services use the same rank structures we use today?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

1. Why were the rank insignia's changed in WC III, WC IV and V (Prophecy) from the ones shown in WC I (+ add-ons) and WC II (+ add-ons) ?

It was primarily changed for production reasons - the 'new' rank insignia are recognizable in WC3's videos - 320x240 heavily compressed xanmovies.

(It also better suits the fact that WCIII's uniforms are blue jumpsuits instead of neat and precise military uniforms.)

2. Another question of mine is about the Admiral rank. In WC IV Tolwyn is a full Admiral, but is he the commander of one fleet (like the 14th Fleet) or is he the commander of the navy?

Although the suggestion in 1991 was that he was a full admiral, Tolwyn's late-sixties rank has been retcon'ed into Rear Admiral. He was commander of the 14th Fleet and Captain of the Concordia itself from 2661 to 2668.

So, is Tolwyn in WC IV in command of the navy or just of a single fleet?

Neither -- he's the head of the Strategic Readiness Agency... which is part of the bureaucracy. Presumably it's a presidentially appointed position.

(The legitimate Confed elements we fight in WCIV are primarily part of the 3rd Fleet, which was Tolwyn's previous command. His successor, Admiral Petranova, was loyal to his cause.)

And last... maybe the Space Marshal rank is more like the Fleet Admiral rank and thus in command of the 'regular' Admirals or more like the Admiral of the Navy? I even heard somewhere that a Space Marshal would be in command of the entire Confed Military!? Oh btw, is Tolwyn also part of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as full Admiral or maybe when he became Space Marshal?

Tolwyn was only Space Marshal for a few minutes... We don't know if he was part of the JCS in WC4 -- we know he wasn't *before* WC4, though. (It seems unlikely -- he was fairly unpopular after Wing Commander III... he became head of the SRA through political maneuvering rather than military achievement).

Space Marshal, by definition, isn't incredibly special. Quote Victory Streak: "he controls whole sectors or commands large fleet operations." (I know, a lot of fan fiction has revolved around it as a special magical rank, but nothing we actually see in the games says it is.)

I would say that in reality, yes, it's more like "Admiral of the Navy" -- which is to say, it's not a 'real' rank, but one used as a reward by the congress in very rare situations and under very specific circumstances. This is certainly what happened with Tolwyn. We don't know anything about the other Space Marshal who has appeared in Wing Commander lore. (Space Marshal Gregarov, circa 2654). We do know that Admiral Banbridge, who was nominally in charge of the navy for much of the war, was a fighting admiral and a many-times-over hero in his own right was *not* a Space Marshal. (And we know that he was not well liked by the Senate).

The ranks in WC seem to have no logic. Unless Blair is a marine why is he a colonel in the navy, in the navy a colonel is an o-6 and the rest of the branches a colonel is an o-6. Oh I like the idea of a "full bird colonel" (or bull sometimes).

The vast majority of pilots we see in Wing Commander are part of the "Space Force", which is distinct from the "Space Navy". There's a chart showing the ranks of these two portions of the armed forces (and their Kilrathi requivalents) in WC3's manual (Victory Streak).

The only difference between the modern and Wing Commander ranks is that Brigadier General and Lieutenant General are swapped... and various enlisted ranks are sci fi'd up ("Senior Spacehand", etc.)

They most defently would have "tour of duty" ribbons and personal conduct ribbons (no stds for 6 months type thing), and so forth, and I do think that maverick you have a walkboard of medals because hes played by the rules, but ofcourse he did piss of Tolwyn.
Manic might not have had so many medals. He'd have his theater ribbons and his gold wings and such but I doubt he'd have something like a "meritorious achievement" because hes was to nuts and rebelious.

My understanding has always been that it's up to the officer whether or not to wear all their ribbons on duty. Blair certainly has a whole chest of them -- we earn that much in the original Wing Commander. It doesn't really seem to suit his personality (or the general feel of his command in WC3) to walk around with them on at all times, though.

(Fun ribbon fact: In WC4, Seether wears the same ribbons as Blair... but in reverse order!)

Back to ranks, where did commador come from, isn't confed suposed to be the future of the U.S. of A or something. That a British rank (no offence tended to my british comrads) but would Tolwyn not have been a Rear Admiral Lower or upper half?

I don't think exactly how the Confederation evolved has ever been discussed in-depth... aside from the various generic references to the United Nations and violent 21st century wars. The United States does call back into use the Commodore grade in times of need... particularly, in World War II (and Wing Commander is nothing if not World War 2 in space).

The Admiral in the Board Worlds was a Rear or a Vice Admiral wasn't he?

That's correct, he was Vice Admiral Wilford.

 

[TransAm]

I was just checking up on my navy ranks, and its not offically listed but commador is used. Someing like a "fill gap" type thing.

And yes, the ranks of the 1300s are the ranks of today, though leftenet is now a Lieutenant. Today you have stuff like Seaman Apprentice and Fireman Apprentice, so you'd have to scifi them.

You know ribbons are not worn in order of when you get them, but in order of (spelling on this) presidence. Your ribbon for your bronze star is higher then your ribbon for millitary service (everyone gets that one). Its all set in stone and evey millitary the world over is the same on that, I don't see much changing there, but it is only a game.

The only time I remember not having to wear my ribbons was if we were in "working uniforms" aka the CO knew we were going to get dirty. Other wise it was always Dress Kaki (ribbions on kaki) or we were in dress uniforms. Lucky me I had a huge award that weighted about a pound and I lost the ribbon and couldn't get another so CDR Harding always made me wear that medal.

Congress today doesn't much like "fighting" members of the military, with exceptions like Rickover. Maybe thats why Admiral Banbridge never got space marshall. If he cared more for taking the fight to the kats than defending ever last bit of Confed space, he wasn't going to be liked. I always thought that Flag officers had it ruff when it came time for promotions. They have to be apporved by congress.
My montior just went all green instead of white. Dang it.

 

[Quarto]

The United States does call back into use the Commodore grade in times of need... particularly, in World War II (and Wing Commander is nothing if not World War 2 in space).

Not a WC question, I know, but could somebody explain to me why the US got rid of the Commodore rank in the first place? I mean, it's ended up using that whole R.Adm. lower/upper half thing, which to me is just bizarre - I know I'd sure prefer to be called a Commodore than the lower half of a Rear Admiral .

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And yes, the ranks of the 1300s are the ranks of today, though leftenet is now a Lieutenant. Today you have stuff like Seaman Apprentice and Fireman Apprentice, so you'd have to scifi them.

Was 'Leftenet' a real rank? AFAIK, it's just how the word Lieutenant is pronounced in England.

Not a WC question, I know, but could somebody explain to me why the US got rid of the Commodore rank in the first place? I mean, it's ended up using that whole R.Adm. lower/upper half thing, which to me is just bizarre - I know I'd sure prefer to be called a Commodore than the lower half of a Rear Admiral .

The rank has only ever existed in the US Navy when it's been a practical necessity. During the Civil War, there was a much greater need for senior officers... so Commodore became a commissioned rank. It existed until the turn of the century, when all Commodores became Rear Admiral, by act of Congress. There was no money to pay all these new Rear Admirals... so they were made "Rear Admiral, Lower Half", drawing less pay than a 'full' Rear Admiral.

(The title had existed previously to this, but it was a position rather than a rank. To get around Congress' refusal to confirm Admirals in the 19th century, the Navy would make officers commodores when charged with duties greater than those of a captain. It wasn't permanent or a rank. It also, I believe, exists in this sense somewhat to this day -- when two Captains are on a ship, the one who is not the nominal *captain* is referred to as Commodore.)

In World War II, there was again a need to recognize notable Captains (and to move them into command roles)... without waiting for Congress to approve admirality lists. Commodore came back to do this.

(It also showed up briefly as a rank in the eighties, because the Army didn't like the fact that Rear Admiral, Lower Halfs outranked Brigadier Generals...)

 

[Repleetah]

Thanks a lot for your explainations LOAF, I appreciate it. Also thx to the others of course for their opinions/answers. I already guessed the insignias change would have been a decision made by Chris Roberts and team rather than a decision from Terran Confederation High Command. I mean, suddenly changing rank insignia's that have been unchanged for about 700 years doesn't really seem realistic, although anything is possible I guess...

About the Commodore rank:

Well, at first in the US Navy history, a Commodore was nothing more than a senior Captain, commanding a small number of ships instead of just a single ship or unit.

Then at one time it became a more recognised ranks in the US Navy, equivalent to Rear-Admiral but with a lower pay grade (how convenient ). Then it changed a few times more untill it was finally abandoned as official rank (I believe the then Commodores were all made Rear-Admirals Lower Half).

As said, nowadays the US Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores are senior Captains in command of Destroyer/Cruiser Squadrons, Coastal Warfare Groups, and Aircraft Squadrons. Such officers are referred to, both verbally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the insignia of a Captain.

PS.

"Neither -- he's the head of the Strategic Readiness Agency... which is part of the bureaucracy. Presumably it's a presidentially appointed position."

So, what you are saying is that although he is a full Admiral, he’s not in command of a fleet or several fleets for that matter during WC IV? What’s his role in WC IV than or better yet, what is this Strategic Readiness Agency anyways? Is it comparable with anything we have today or have had in the past?

And second, Tolwyn has his office over at Confed HQ (orbiting Jupiter), but I thought he had his office there because he was commander of the navy, but obviously he isn’t. So, do all the Admirals have an office over at Confed HQ? Which actually brings me to another question. In WC IV they show Confed HQ where Tolwyn is situated, but I’ve read that each sector has a sector HQ and that Confed HQ shown in WC III and WC IV is actually just a sector HQ, in this case for the Sol sector. I’m confused

 

[TransAm]

Well your forgetting that the british had lots of differnet lueys, 2nd 3rd and so forth, we just have LTjgs or 1st and 2nds. Not a big deal at all.

I'd figure you'd want the entire HQ near the seat of government, since they talk alot in the end of iv as to such and such wasn't aproved by the goverment, the military leaders would have to go and forth to the seat often. So maybe Juptiar is like the Pentagon? It's proably big enough to hold both regional command and overall.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

So, what you are saying is that although he is a full Admiral, he’s not in command of a fleet or several fleets for that matter during WC IV? What’s his role in WC IV than or better yet, what is this Strategic Readiness Agency anyways? Is it comparable with anything we have today or have had in the past?

I believe he's still a Rear Admiral in WC4 (he's still wearing the same insignia as he wore in WC3, and the TPoF novel mentions at one point that he's wearing a Rear Admiral's uniform).

Basically, the story goes that Tolwyn endured a very publicized court martial regarding the Behemoth failoure. He was acquitted of any wrong doing, but he became a very unpopular figure publically just after the war.

The SRA is an example of added oversight, similar to the Department of Homeland Security today. When the war started the military wasn't ready or expecting such a conflict - because of that, Confed endured some very serious losses early on as it geared up to fight an interstellar war (think of the US Army at the start of the Civil War). So afterwards the Strategic Readiness Agency was created, charged with keeping the military prepared for the next conflict. It seems to have both military (ie, issuing broad reorganizational orders) and political (ie, lobbying in congress) components.

And second, Tolwyn has his office over at Confed HQ (orbiting Jupiter), but I thought he had his office there because he was commander of the navy, but obviously he isn’t. So, do all the Admirals have an office over at Confed HQ? Which actually brings me to another question. In WC IV they show Confed HQ where Tolwyn is situated, but I’ve read that each sector has a sector HQ and that Confed HQ shown in WC III and WC IV is actually just a sector HQ, in this case for the Sol sector. I’m confused

Tolwyn's office in the intro to Wing Commander III is at Sector Command in the Torgo System -- the gas giant outside isn't Jupiter.

His office in Wing Commander IV doesn't have a gas giant at all (Blair's shuttle passes through the outer planets and Mars to get there in the previous scene). It's Orion Station -- it's not a major base at all... it was a former defense post that Tolwyn had tower to L5 to serve as the command post for building the Vesuvius-class ships.

(Confed does have a HQ is at Jupiter Station... it's referenced in some of the Secret Ops fiction, the Confederation Handbook and is seen in one of the losing endgames to Wing Commander Prophecy.)

As for other likely offices for Admirals... there was a "Sol Station" in/near Earth orbit which is referenced in some of the earlier games (Tolwyn had an office there in 2654, when his star was rising). We also know that the Joint Chiefs had a complex that was located on Earth itself (during the war, at least -- it was bombed in 2668.)

 

[Repleetah]

Thanks again for your explainations LOAF

Oh btw, here are some fine examples of the rank insignia's used in WC III, WC IV and WCP: Rank Insignia's

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Cool chart! A few changes that I believe are correct (I don't have my notes here):

Lt. Col. should be the reverse of Col. Hobbes wears this in Wing Commander III:

Rear Admiral and General are surrounded by quarter sized rectangles instead of half sized ones. Like this (only silver for RA):

Brigadier General should be a solid gold bar:

(To the best of my knowledge, everything but Vice Admiral, Major General, Lieutenant General and the Ensign grades have been seen on-screen or in artwork of some sort.)

 

[LeHah]

Hey, neat job on the website, Repleetah

 

[Repleetah]

Well, I'm totally into Wing Commander again. I started back in '90 and been hooked ever since. I've played pretty much all of them (WC1 + SM1+2, WC2 +SO1+2, WC3, WC4, WCP+SO and some other fan made missions, Privateer, Privateer 2, WC Armada, I haven't played WC Academy though... didn't really think I would enjoy it.) I've also read a lot of fan fiction, including HTL, unfortunately I never got a chance to read the WC novels though

Anyways, two weeks ago I decided to once more play the games and since I have Windows XP Pro + SP2, I used Abandon Loader + VDM Sound and it works great! heh, even though the games look outdated of course (especially WC 1 and 2), it's still very neat and fun to play

 

[climber]

Anyone, feel free to correct me on this but I shall try to explain the evolving navy ranks and how convoluted they really were.

First of all this may all be found in British history and beyond. Captain is from the latin for head, Capet. This then came through to Britain via Anglo-Norman a long time ago. In with this also came Lieutenant which literally meant 'holding position'. For a long time this was the only distinction. In the british navy there were also midshipmen which referred I believe to the part of the ship over which they hard jurisdiction. Middys were then promoted to Lt's and then to captains if good enough. Now, a commission was given and meant that the person had the word of the king. This descended from feudal times when the king would give out such awards for acts of loyalty. As such an officer was a gentleman and could not be a commoner. The tradition still alive today is that no officer can have extra-marital affairs or mess around with other officers wives, this would cost them a discharge.

All promotions were granted by patronage. He who had the most influence and the seniority would get the promotion. Captains were promoted by seniority to Admiral.

Commanders then appeared in the 17th century as 'Master and Commander' rank to command sixth rate vessels, those having 20 - 28 guns. A Lt-Commander was a Lt who was waiting to take command of a ship.

Initally Captain was equal to the same rank in the army, with the two being defined as leaders of groups of men. This was later updated to Lt-Col and with three years service a captain was equivalent to Col.

Interestingly here is where the Americans and the British part on rank structure, pay heed. There never used to be commodore in the British navy either. The three ranks of Flag officer existed only, rear, vice and full admiral. So called flag ranks as they were able to have their own flag flown aboard ship. Equivalent to the general officers of the army. Commodore was a Dutch word, not too sure of its meaning. When the Americas were discovered a commodore was still not an official rank but was a stop gap where by Post-Captains (defined as a captain without a ship) could command a fighting group under the title of commodore.

Thus we have the development of the rank structure that exists today. There is also a first sea lord, responsible for the regular navy and a second sea lord responsible for the naval reserve. There is also an admiral of the fleet (currently Prince Phillip, the queens husband incase you didn't know). In times of war where there may be more than one fleet, there is more than one admiral of the fleet. Other royals hold courtesy ranks but do not neccessarily serve with the exception of Prince Andrew who is a Fleet Air Arm Commander.

I therefore conclude that whilst the American Forces inheritted all the ranks of the Army, due to the divergence before the commodore rank was implimented there was no such rank in the US navy. This left a gap in the rank structure which needed to be filled and two grades of rear admiral were born.

The US navy also has Ensigns which literally means 'Gleam from afar' but can also be translated as a flag, banner or pole e.g. the red ensign of the Royal Navy. There also is a divergence in the lower ranks with no Sub-Lt in the US. There are two grades of Lt which I cannot account for. The US Navy Rank insignia for officers was taken directly from that of The Royal Navy and is the standard for every navy in the world.

 

[TransAm]

I was afraid I was going to have to break out my field mannal. I think that the idea of a "sub LT" might have gave a bad impression, think if you didn't make the list the first time you were able to, so they changed it to LT Jounior Grade.
They gave me a plaque with my ribbons and rank and everything in graved on it, they screwed it up though, right next to my LT bars it says "LT J/G Dial". My Mastor Chief and I had a talk about that, honest mistake by the ingraving people.

 

[Ridgerunner]

You know, I got banned once participating in a thread like this.....

 

[Bandit LOAF]

You know, I got banned once participating in a thread like this.....

People get banned for doing stupid things, not for the kind of thread they participate in.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yeah, I know. The stupid thing applies.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

"Sub-Lieutenant" is the rank equivilant of Ensign in the USN. The rank came about in the mid 1860s as a replacement to "mate"(A derivation of "Master's Mate" which was a temporary warrant rank that senior midshipmen usually held in lieu of a commission during the 1700s.) Lieutenant J.G. was created in the USN when Sailing Masters were given full executive commissions. As their position was still technically below that of the lowliest commissioned officer, they were granted ranks as a junior grade lieutenant.

"Captain" was originally used because the temporary military soldiers assigned to ships were generally about company level, hence anyone assigned to them were captains in the army sense. As ships became more specialized the title held, but they were given seniority in terms of rank. "Post Captain" simply refered to anyone commanding a rated ship(roughly after 1760) and also indicated someone who was on the Post List, where you're basically guaranteed a promotion to flag rank unless you died first.(Of course there's the whole issue of being yellowed, but that's another matter.)

Commodores(there were two distinctions during the age of sail, First Class and Second Class) hoisted "broad-pennants" instead of flags, and were essentially the only way a captain could be given a squadron command. The basic reason for commodores was to prevent a glut of flag officers after wartime conditions, which was the same reason the USN revived the rank during WW2, they needed squadron commanders, but didn't want to increase the number of flag officers(and hence their pay) after the war.

I'd guess they only have it in WC as an equivilant to an O7 rank so brigadiers didn't get nasty about being outranked by lower seniority rear admirals.