Wing Commander 4 rated as the 29th worst game ever

Not everyone is qualified to judge a physics theory. But everyone is qualified to judge art, because the very idea of art is to move people.

Wait, so you're telling me that someone is allowed to critique art simply because they can see it? I think you may be confusing "uninformed opinion" with "educated critique", my friend.

While art critics are generally painted as snobbish, wine drinking jerks - the reason they're art critics at all is because they know their field. It goes beyond meer opinion, unless you're willing to admit that a high schooler has the levity of denying certain scientific theories simply because it's "only" a theory.
 
Wait, so you're telling me that someone is allowed to critique art simply because they can see it? I think you may be confusing "uninformed opinion" with "educated critique", my friend.
Yes, I'm saying exactly that. I think the very notion that art critics are the only ones qualified to say whether something is good art or not has caused huge damage to art in general. Art critics are responsible for the greatest artistic disaster the world has ever witnessed - because of them, we've had to endure almost half a century of post-modernism... and for that, I want my money back, damn it. Thanks to art critics, we've actually reached the point where somebody can literally send a piece his own shit in a glass box to an art gallery (I kid you not - it has been done), and seriously expect it to not only be shown, but to get rave reviews from art critics. In this regard, it is far, far better to rely on the common sense of the ordinary person, who looking at this piece of "art" will be simply disgusted.

While art critics are generally painted as snobbish, wine drinking jerks - the reason they're art critics at all is because they know their field. It goes beyond meer opinion, unless you're willing to admit that a high schooler has the levity of denying certain scientific theories simply because it's "only" a theory.
There is a world of difference between studying artistic theories and critiquing art. What people actually study in university courses related to art critique is how art works in general. We study, for example, what kind of composition looks good to the human eye, and what will look wrong. This is all very amazing, very useful stuff - but knowing how the human eye perceives an image does not mean you're more qualified to assess the beauty of an image than any other human being who happens to have eyes. Another thing we study is art history, the different styles that had developed over the ages, and so on - but again, being able to recognise the difference between an impressionist and an expressionist image does not mean you're more qualified to assess the beauty of this image than anybody else. What it does mean is that you're more qualified to tell what the image is, what style it represents, and so on - but none of this in any way actually affects whether an image is pleasing to the eye or not. The beauty of an image has nothing to do with the degree to which it conforms to the tenets of, say, impressionism.

I mean, art critics can tell you how original a piece of art is, they can tell you (to some degree) what most likely inspired the author, they can tell you what techniques the author used, and how well he managed to imitate a particular style already in existence... they can tell you a lot of amazing stuff. But there is one thing they will never be able to tell you - whether you will like a piece of art. Unfortunately for them, however, that happens to be the only thing that counts when it comes to assessing art - whether people like it or not. It's not that a picture is beautiful because the majority of the population happens to like it - but the fact that the majority of the population happens to like it certainly does prove that it is beautiful. And if the majority of the population couldn't be paid to stay awake throughout the entirety of Dog Star Man, it really doesn't matter how many art critics praise this film. At the end of the day, if most people think it's an ugly, boring, unenjoyable mishmash that leads to nowhere, that's probably because that's exactly what it is - and the art critics can go sit on a pack of ice for all I care.

It's also worth noting that art critics are a relatively new invention - there certainly was no such thing in the middle ages or earlier. The lack of art critics has not negatively affected the art from those times, however. It is remarkable to note that the problem of a select clique of professionals considering someone's work to be amazing while the rest of the population hated it, is actually a new problem that arose in the 20th or perhaps 19th century - it never existed until the appearance of the art critics.

In short: art critics are almost as vital to the continued existence and quality of art as astronomers are to the continued existence and quality of the universe.
 
Yes, I'm saying exactly that. I think the very notion that art critics are the only ones qualified to say whether something is good art or not has caused huge damage to art in general. Art critics are responsible for the greatest artistic disaster the world has ever witnessed - because of them, we've had to endure almost half a century of post-modernism... and for that, I want my money back, damn it. Thanks to art critics, we've actually reached the point where somebody can literally send a piece his own shit in a glass box to an art gallery (I kid you not - it has been done), and seriously expect it to not only be shown, but to get rave reviews from art critics. In this regard, it is far, far better to rely on the common sense of the ordinary person, who looking at this piece of "art" will be simply disgusted.

To coin a movie quote, "The ability to have an opinion does not make you intelligent." (Not directed at you, Quarto. Its a general statement.)

Just because you yourself don't like something, does not mean it lacks merit. Many people dislike post-modern music but because all of them hate it does not discredit it at all. What it comes down to is that this same tone in your voice was used against people like Jackson Pollack. "What is this trash? What is this mess?"

To quote Anthony Burgess, "When art ceases to be dangerous, no one wants it".

I think we can agree to disagree on this whole subject, because we could be chasing our tails on this endlessly. I'm as well equipt to argue about the validity of art as I am to argue about art it's self.

Another thing we study is art history...

I was an Art major for two years, thank you. :)

(Just don't ask me the types of columns...uh, Iconic...)
 
To coin a movie quote, "The ability to have an opinion does not make you intelligent." (Not directed at you, Quarto. Its a general statement.)

Just because you yourself don't like something, does not mean it lacks merit. Many people dislike post-modern music but because all of them hate it does not discredit it at all. What it comes down to is that this same tone in your voice was used against people like Jackson Pollack. "What is this trash? What is this mess?"

To quote Anthony Burgess, "When art ceases to be dangerous, no one wants it".

I think we can agree to disagree on this whole subject, because we could be chasing our tails on this endlessly. I'm as well equipt to argue about the validity of art as I am to argue about art it's self.



I was an Art major for two years, thank you. :)

(Just don't ask me the types of columns...uh, Iconic...)

I'm pretty sure Quarto's point was that the critics are *not* more entitled to judge art than anyone else.
Heh, if some people enjoy looking at what is literally sh*t, let them enjoy it - but that doesn't mean *we* should like it, nor does that mean we should say that it is *good* art, as ambiguous as the word is.
I'm with Quarto on this one. If art could only be judged by critics; then said critics, as 'experienced' as they are, wouldn't be disagreeing all the time with one another.
 
This is all very interesting, but ultimately unrelated to the topic at hand. An actor isn't the work of art -- he's the brand of paint used to create it.
 
This is all very interesting, but ultimately unrelated to the topic at hand. An actor isn't the work of art -- he's the brand of paint used to create it.
An actor, no - but his performance in some way is art, or at the very least, it's something tangible enough that its quality can be assessed.


Many people dislike post-modern music but because all of them hate it does not discredit it at all. What it comes down to is that this same tone in your voice was used against people like Jackson Pollack. "What is this trash? What is this mess?"
Hehe, well certainly that's exactly the tone I intended... and to me, the million-dollar question is: people are willing to pay millions of dollars for Jackson Pollack's work, so obviously it must be great art, right? Well... how much would they pay for a Jackson Pollack painting (or an Andy Warhol, or any other of their ilk) if it had my name on it instead of his? I mean, would anybody actually buy a piece of paint-smeared canvas if it didn't come from a famous artist? In other words - does anybody actually think his work is beautiful for its own sake, or is it only great as long as his name is attached? That is the real problem I have with art critics - that so frequently, they get so caught up in their theories, that they put an artist (particularly when it comes to post-modernists) ahead of his art, assessing the latter based on the former.

I think we can agree to disagree on this whole subject, because we could be chasing our tails on this endlessly. I'm as well equipt to argue about the validity of art as I am to argue about art it's self.
That's fair enough, I doubt we'd get too far either.
 
Macdowell B-grade stars? Uh, Macdowell is one of the more respected actors. .


Malcom Macdowell I think does a lot of theater these days, though Im only guessing. I think if he wanted to he could easily have been up there with the likes of Anthony Hopkins fame (well almost maybe).
 
I think if he wanted to he could easily have been up there with the likes of Anthony Hopkins fame (well almost maybe).

This doesn't make any sense. Hopkins and McDowell are both very good actors in their own right - and they have both had bigger breaks than most actors get. Hopkins got his in The Elephant Man and Remains Of The Day while McDowell had A Clockwork Orange and that Lindsay Anderson trilogy.

Is McDowell famous? Yes, certainly - otherwise we wouldn't be talking about him. But to say that "he could've been as popular as Hopkins" is silly and maybe even mildly demeaning. You make it sound (albeit unintentionally) that he didn't try hard enough and that everyone should want to be like Hopkins.

This is not so. No actor wants to be another actor, he wants to have his talents unto himself, which McDowell has succeeded in etching over the years. Who can forget his turn on the sadly short-lived Fantasy Island remake or any number of smaller billed works? Just because he doesn't get top billing in movies doesn't mean he failed to acheive "Hopkins" status.
 
This doesn't make any sense. Hopkins and McDowell are both very good actors in their own right - and they have both had bigger breaks than most actors get. Hopkins got his in The Elephant Man and Remains Of The Day while McDowell had A Clockwork Orange and that Lindsay Anderson trilogy.

Is McDowell famous? Yes, certainly - otherwise we wouldn't be talking about him. But to say that "he could've been as popular as Hopkins" is silly and maybe even mildly demeaning. You make it sound (albeit unintentionally) that he didn't try hard enough and that everyone should want to be like Hopkins.

This is not so. No actor wants to be another actor, he wants to have his talents unto himself, which McDowell has succeeded in etching over the years. Who can forget his turn on the sadly short-lived Fantasy Island remake or any number of smaller billed works? Just because he doesn't get top billing in movies doesn't mean he failed to acheive "Hopkins" status.

I think you misunderstand me. Im not saying McDowell isnt a good actor, Im saying he is. Im saying he's just not as interested in a film career as Hopkins is, or was.
 
Im saying he's just not as interested in a film career as Hopkins is, or was.

IMDB lists McDowell at having over 150 film and television roles. I think he's very, very interested in having a career.
 
IMDB lists McDowell at having over 150 film and television roles. I think he's very, very interested in having a career.
Eh, I'm sure all those films mean nothing. Everyone knows that McDowell in fact always wanted to be a lumberjack.
 
IMDB lists McDowell at having over 150 film and television roles. I think he's very, very interested in having a career.

And look most of them are TV roles. Compare his IMDB entry to Hopkins.

Its a similar story I think with John Rhys Davis. He does a lot of TV. I dont know why, I think these guys are up there with the likes of the best of British film actors like Hopkins. But for whatever reason they arent doing the big movies, or it seems many movies at all.
 
You have no understanding of how this works, do you?

Well from my standpoint as a composer, you can get 3 times as many credits writing music for TV but you'll never be as big as a film composer. See if you are known as a Tv composer its traditionally very hard to break into film scoring becuase everyone knows you as a TV guy. Its similar with actors it seems. David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson from X-Files were probably the biggest TV Stars ever at the hight of their careers, but did they get much film work? Not really. You can have a hundred credits in TV work, but that doesnt compare to say 20 big well recieved critically acclaimed films.

Point being, Malcolm McDowell does a lot of TV work, usually minor, but not much film and when he does its usually never any big films. Hopkins is a A List film star. What Im saying is that I see M.McDowell and J.R.Davis as being just as good an actor as Hopkins and should be up there with him, but for whatever reason they arent. I assume because they are more interested in theater than trying to get as big as Hopkins, but maybe I am wrong about the reason.

Ed
 
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