Why Not Requisition Kilrathi Ships?

[Bandit LOAF]

I think the problem with the "dreadnought breaks in two" argument is that its just an arbitrary end scenario assigned by this thread for no reason. Someone could just as easily had claimed that the dreadnought would turn into a muffin, and we would have no need or means to prove or disprove such a scenario.

 

[Marc]

while it is tempting to explore this new 'muffin' theorie...

Instead I'll ask this, and hope it comes back to subject of the thread;
Wouldn't it be sound to not only requisition Cat ships, but Cat crewmens along with them? In other words, entire battlegroup of Kilrahti manned ship could serve under Confleet. That way, everyone stays in their own ships and the aerospace industry doesn't suffer...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Ehhh...

So, you guys built this huge fleet capable of wiping out our civilization... and we beat you on a technicality... how bout y'all take your ships and come hang around our space with them?

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I think the problem with the "dreadnought breaks in two" argument is that its just an arbitrary end scenario assigned by this thread for no reason. Someone could just as easily had claimed that the dreadnought would turn into a muffin, and we would have no need or means to prove or disprove such a scenario.

I seemed to remember an even more appropriate quote you once made, but I suppose this one will at least relate:

The ship designs, the uniforms, the characters and history all seemed perfect to me - it was this wonderful pulp science fiction setting.

I think discussions on the science behind various WC aspects are another area (in addition to the ship design, history, etc. aspects you mention) that makes the WC even more complete as a pulp science fiction setting. There are many other posters who feel that scientific discussions about WC occurances are valid grounds for conversation on these forums. Complete threads each with many posts by several different posters have revolved around discussions of scientific explanations for WC occurances (the speed of ships and the sounds made by ships threads come to mind). Actually, I seem to remember you participating in these scientific explanations as well. I can see your point that there is no need to figure out what would happen though, since a Flashpack never encounters a Kilrathi Dreadnought in any Wing Commander game (I don't know about the books, but I think you may have read them all, and I'm sure you would've remembered). One could have the view that it's relevent because it gives insight into how the Flashpack works- just as explanations of how sounds occur can be engaging discussions that can give insights into how sound works in the WC games (though, to be fair, this isn't very relevent to the gaming experience either). Even if it's not relevent, it is WC related and several posters have been inpired to post regarding it. Some people may argue that in our lives there's no need to play, read about, or discuss Wing Commander either (and I would agree with them, just like I agree with you that there's no need to discuss the effects a Flashpack would have on various ships)- however, it's fun, and if people find discussing or theorizing about the science behind Wing Commander to be fun also, then I wouldn't criticize it (even if I didn't enjoy this area of discussion). However, I would be interested in seeing you describe how it could turn into a muffin , but perhaps this would be too much of a departure from WC "reality".

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't have anything against a scientific discussion - but even in those terms, its an odd starting point.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I don't have anything against a scientific discussion - but even in those terms, its an odd starting point.

True, we sort of gradually drifted into the topic on a thread which is about something completely different... perhaps we should have opened a separate thread.

 

[ChrisReid]

Actually, I seem to remember you participating in these scientific explanations as well. I can see your point that there is no need to figure out what would happen though, since a Flashpack never encounters a Kilrathi Dreadnought in any Wing Commander game".

No, that's not LOAF's point. You misunderstood him. He's not saying technical discussions about fictional Wing Commander science are misplaced (and therefore, your whole long superparagraph is unnecessary). He's saying the specific case of a dreadnought breaking in two after flashpacking is a random scenario made up for this thread that's not based on anything and time spent discussing its merits isn't going anywhere. Unlike regular discussion about the WC universe, determining one solution or the other to the dreadnought thing doesn't lead to greater insight or understanding of Wing Commander like the million similar discussions you mention LOAF has participated in. If you actually spent time debating it, you wouldn't get anywhere. There's no reason for it to split in half, and many reasons for the structure to stay intact, so nobody should have even suggested the scenario.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah. Every ship we've ever seen blown up by the flashpak blows up the same way -- there's no basis for assuming the dreadnought would blow up differently, and thus no reason to figure out why that is.

 

[Paddybhoy]

Well discussing the differing effects the flashpack might have on their targets seems reasonable to me, because if someone writes a fan fic especially one in the post prohecy/post massive bug invasion era the flashpack might be one of the aces the human race utilises to hold them back.

Also recruiting the cats to the confed military does seem extreme. The best contemporary comparison I can think of is the post-WW2 situation with Japan and Germany. Japan to this day has articles in its constitution forbidding the use of force in international disputes and so they have quite a limited force projection capability and their military is geared towards defence and peacekeeping. Germany is slighty less constrained on its military policies but still very much defensive in it methods and manner.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah -- given all the problems with Kilrathi warlords coming to power and continuing to raid the frontiers, enlisting Kilrathi ships and crews seems pretty out there. (Also, Confed didn't *conquer* the empire -- pressing its citizens into service would be odd.)

Discussing the different effets of the flashpack isn't complex, though -- because we've seen flashpacks used on all sizes of ships and bases and they've always had the same effect.

 

[Paddybhoy]

Would they work on the Bugs?

 

[ChrisReid]

Would they work on the Bugs?

This was a common question about eight years ago. There's no way to know for sure, but the Vesuvius needing to be flashpacked from the inside because of its special hull set a precedent for there being materials that the flashpack wouldn't work through.

 

[luminon]

I don't remember any reference of the flashpack ever being tested on the bugs, so maybe their ships being made of organic material might make a difference. But in theory it should work since human marines have landed on nephilim ships, which implies there must be oxygen in the air, which burns easily.

 

[Marc]

Ehhh...

So, you guys built this huge fleet capable of wiping out our civilization... and we beat you on a technicality... how bout y'all take your ships and come hang around our space with them?

'Cause if y'all don't, we'll blow up some more of then kittie planets y'a hear now?

yeah... does sound kinda.. southern don't it... ok dum. my bad.
But to be fair, most of that huge fleet capable of wipping out Confed whent up in smoke along with Kilrah.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Some of it did -- elements that survived ended up places like Hralgkrak Province, serving warlords (False Colors).

 

[TigerNobleHeart]

There's also the tech base to consider... you'd have to train a LOT of techs to work with Kilrathi equipment, using Kilrathi-sized (and Kilrathi-torqued, ouch) tools, flying in uncomfortably large chairs with no ejection mechanism in a generally inferior fighter (yeah, that'd be REAL popular). Also the Kilrathi system was based as much on the warrior code, Clan rivalry, and feudal duty as much as monetary incentive, so the actual cost of running Kat equipment might be relatively high.

That said, I'd be surprised if some of the tech wasnt conveniently "appropriated" by Black Ops - cloaking ships, Skippers, Bloodfangs if there were any more of that line available. The really big ships are fleet-operation type vessels with huge crews, not what you want around when demobilizing, and difficult to train new crews for because of the sheer alienness. Besides, if there was a Dreadnaught in WC4 chances are the Black Lance would have tested a Flashpack on it. You know, just for fun.

Okay, flying in hard to handle, hard to maintain fighters. Generally inferior and in a lot of instances, a flying death trap...
... this sounds like no problem for those of us who are used to flying Epees.

Yeah, in retrospect, the Skippers do seem like something that could've been used by Black Lance. Cloacked missles fired by cloaked fighters.

 

[wankski]

I think many of you guys hit the nail on the head.

1) you don’t requisition weapons an enemy has that utilises a significantly different design and construction, you study their superior designs where they exist and adapt them. Just as its no co-incidence that the allies and the russians had jet-powered fighters with *swept back wings*, it’s no surprise that for a short while confed finally had a reliable cloak after the events of wc3 until the bugs made it seemingly obsolete.
2) Confed was definitely in the process of scaling back, I’m sure they had a massive back-log of their own weapons that now had no users with the massive demobilisation after the war. As was said in the wc4 novel – most people were in the military or supporting it, and many now were out of work after the kilrathi war.
3) All of the logistics and such would have been a nightmare as you guys pointed out. Even on clearly superior designs worth keeping. For example the French and others kept some captured tigers and panthers after the second world war, but retired them as they broke down and were only in very limited numbers.

I’m sure you guys can figure a whole other set of reasons. The point that many of the kilrtahi designs were based on numbers rather than quality is not to be understated, especially for a force scaling back in numbers. When you think about it, all the kilrathi had over the humans was cloak, and they did nab it after the war.

 

[ChrisReid]

Yeah, in retrospect, the Skippers do seem like something that could've been used by Black Lance. Cloacked missles fired by cloaked fighters.

Well, Skippers are only of limited use when you have cloaked fighters that can launch regular torpedoes. Skippers are capship missiles, and the Blacklance even has cloaking capships, so there just probably isn't the need when they've already got other super advanced weaponry.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I agree that many of the Kilrathi fighters were inferior to Confed's, but NOT ALL. I would've loved to fly the Bloodfang fighter. I understand though the probs. that could have been faced in converting these, so I'm not saying they should have, just showing that some Kilrathi fighters- especially the Bloodfang- are just as good, and in this case, superior to those of Confed.
BLOODFANG....................... Class: Super Fighter
Max Velocity 560 kps
Acceleration 375 k/s^2
Max Afterburner Velocity 1400 kps
Max Y/P/R 70/90/90 deg/s
Guns Tachyon Cannons (2), Plasma Guns (2)
Missile Hardpoints 3x3 (3HS/3FF/3IR)
Missile Decoys 12
Front Shield 250 cm
Rear Shield 400 cm
Front Armor 100 cm
Rear Armor 100 cm
Right/Left Armor 100 cm
Jump Capable Yes
As you can see, this ship has a faster max velocity than any fighter in the Confed fleet from both WC3 AND WC4- including the Bearcat and Razor (560vs.550). It also carries 9 missiles, which is more than the Bearcat and Razor. Although it's only one extra missile, it's 3x3, so you can have a better selection of missiles to choose from (or if you want only a few dumbfires for capships, you can load 3, and still have 6 air to air missiles left over vs. 4x4 on the Bearcat). Not many missile decoys though . It's also Jump capable, which I think only the Excalibur could do. The shields are even more powerful that the Excalibur, and the armor is close too. The Bearcat is stronger from the front and sides, but the Bloodfang is stronger from behind. I would think though that it would be easier to fit a human into a Kilrathi fighter than it would be to fit a Kilrathi into a Confed fighter- as Hobbes must have done. It's not easier to add space to a fighter and/or squeeze into a really tight seat than it would be to reduce the size and/or fit into a larger cockpit. The other posts about requiring different skills from the techs, the negative associations attached to Kilrathi weapons, and the following quote are enough to convince me that it very likely wasn't worth the trouble:

The difficulties in converting a kilrathi ship to almost fully functioning terran ship is highly detailed in FC. There they also had access to cadre of kilrathi specialists and it still took a good deal of time, although they were working on a fairly battered ship, nonetheless it describes a lot of the problems that would be faced.

I'm not sure what "FC" means, but if it's WC canon, I would nominate this for the best explanation for why ship requisitioning never occured in the WC universe (of course as we know, the real reason is because the people who made the game didn't want to do it) . Again, I'm not claiming Confed should have requisitioned Kilrathi ships, I'm merely showing that there were superior Kilrathi fighters that COULD be worth requisitioning IF it proved cost effective. If the game designers felt that enough people would've liked to try flying Kilrathi technology (which prob. most people wouldn't, though I would have enjoyed it), there might be posts on these forums explaining why Confed was able to convert these fighters for service.

 

[wankski]

yeah the bloodfang is nice, but comapring it to a "economy" bearcat that was made a deal after the war isn't fair.

the 'fang is rougly analogous to the excalibur, and yes it has nice specs, maybe even a few better than the excal, but its a fairly marginal improvement to go through all the motions to press it into service, and like the excal, likely very expensive at the time of inital service.

in the end, as i said earlier, confed did take the one thing the kirathi clearly had on the humans. cloak.