Whose Victory?

I'll toss in my three points and then let it go. (Your all doing such a good job!)

A) The Emperor had nothing to do with war until the very end, when he decided to surrender. (And even then, most of his top Admirals/Generals who favored dying for honor were planning a coup.)

B) The Great Blunders in History show IS accurate, it just tends to go over very broad subject matter. I've yet to see one that had facts competely fouled. (And I'm a very avid watcher.)

C) The position and location of all the carriers OP has mentioned are true.
 
Okay here is the text book version of the battle of Midway from the military history class I took this last semester (takes in large breath):

the Battle for Midway was the Japanese attempt to cut off any other chance of the US to bomb mainland Japan (as they had in the Doolittle Raid) by 1) Taking out Midway Island (the only US military base in the pacific large enough and far enough to mount a strike against the Japanese mainland) and 2) Demolishing the US pacific fleet. The Japanese Task Force consisted of 8 carriers, 11 battleships, 24 destroyers, 64 cruisers, and 22 submarines. The US Task Force had 3 carriers(including the damaged Yorktown), 8 cruisers, and 15 destroyers. THe Japanese lost the engagement due to 3 factors. They are as follows (those with an * beside them denote those that Japanese general Tojo listed as the major causes for the Japanese defeat):

* 1) The most major reason was Yamamoto dividing his fleet into thirds (going against American sea power guru Mahan's doctorine of "never divide your fleet"). one third was sent to strike Midway, one third steamed north as a distraction, and the last third stayed put (again the arrogance of Yamamoto mentioned before in this discussion).

* 2) The US had broken most of the the Japanese code (also as mentioned before)

3) US had superior aircraft and pilots. The lack of good pilots was contributed to by the battle of the Coral Sea (also mentioned earlier). The planes technology is one I find hard to swallow, I personally think it has more to do with the piloting skills than anything else, but in this instance, the superior firepower and armor of the slower US Corairs and Mustangs beat the faster more maneuverable, but significantly less armed and armored Zeros.
Results:
Japan - lost 322 planes, ~3500 men (dead not just casualties), and 4 carriers.
US - Carrier Yorktown (as mentioned before - not even really in the battle) and one destroyer sank, 150 planes (almost a third of them in the bombing runs mentioned below), and 307 men dead.

Anyway, there is a text book description of the battle. I tried to pull most of it form memory but I had to go to my notes to get the numbers :)

C-ya
 
At this time the US and Japanese had about even aircraft. The Japanese Zero had long range, was faster than the American Wildcat and could climb and turn better. The F4F Wilcat used by the US Navy and Marines at Midway was slower, but had better armaments, self sealing fuel tanks, and could dive better.

American tactics favored teamwork, and hit and run tactics. Wildcats would try to attack from above, slashing through Japanese fromations using thier superior diving ability to escape. Another common tactic was to try to get a few shots into a Zero while either plane was disengaging. The Zero would leak fuel, and be forced to ditch before reaching home. (This tactic was widely practiced by the AVG in China.)
Japanese pilots were taught to use their manuverability to the fullest.

At the battle of Midway the Japanese had a sizable corp of battle tested aviators. The loss at Midway diminished the ranks of experienced Japanese pilots, but it was not until later- when the American F6F and F4U became available was the Japanese Navel Air Arm thoroughly gutted.

The US did not have Mustangs at Midway, and Mustangs were NEVER flown by the Navy.
 
Originally posted by Viper61
1) The most major reason was Yamamoto dividing his fleet into thirds (going against American sea power guru Mahan's doctorine of "never divide your fleet"). one third was sent to strike Midway, one third steamed north as a distraction, and the last third stayed put (again the arrogance of Yamamoto mentioned before in this discussion).
I disagree with this as the "most major" reason. While it's true that the Japanese divided their operation into three arcs, the BULK of their fleet was at Midway, not a mere third. Of the eight Japanese carriers (four heavy, four light), all four heavies - the AKAGI, KAGA, SORYU, and HIRYU - were directly involved in the Midway arc of the operation, along with two battleships and most of the cruiser/destroyer screen. Two light carriers went to the Aleutians with a couple of battleships and cruisers, and several destroyers. The light carrier ZUIHO was with the Main Battle Fleet consisting of the remainder of the battleships, 700 miles behind the heavy carriers. The last light carrier was carrying out small strikes in New Guinea (often not even considered part of the operation en totale).

There may have been 3 thrusts of action, but 80% of the Japanese fleet was at Midway proper. While dividing the attack thusly certainly had an impact, it was clearly not the primary reason for the Japanese defeat.

2) The US had broken most of the the Japanese code (also as mentioned before)
This is UNQUESTIONABLY the primary reason. The US fleet probably would not have gone North, even without knowing the Japanese plans, but it would have played into Yammamoto's scheme of arriving at Midway AFTER the island had been secured. Yammamoto would hav ealso brought up his Main Battle Fleet and sought surface engagements. The combination of four heavy and one light carriers, land-based air power, and battleships would have likely decimated the US carriers (remember, the US fleet had no battleships along). Knowledge of the plans, and establishing a counter-ambush (element of surprise) is the single most important aspect of the Battle of Midway.

3) US had superior aircraft and pilots.
No way. The A6M Zero outperformed the F4F Wildcat in every statisitcal category except diving speed, though the Wildcat was more rugged and better-armed. The B5N Kate was markedly superior to the obsolete TBD Devastator (and carried the best torpedo in the world in the Type 91 Long Lance). The only parity was in dive bombers, where the SBD Dauntless was generally a slightly better aircraft than the D3A Val.

The Japanese had a clear experience advantage, though US flight and fight tactics were noticeably better than evena month earlier at Coral Sea. Of course, the extreme range that the US planes had to fly so mixed up the flight coordination that the sacrifice of the Devastators was necessary to allow the Dauntlesses to make their deadly attacks almost unopposed.

the superior firepower and armor of the slower US Corairs and Mustangs beat the faster more maneuverable, but significantly less armed and armored Zeros.
Corsairs and Mustangs didn't exist as combattants in the Pacific yet. Perhaps you meant Wildcats? At any rate, the Corsair and Mustang were both faster than their Japanese counterparts later in the war (the former was one fo the fastest piston-engined fighters ever). The Mustang was more maneuverable as well.
 
Originally posted by OriginalPhoenix

No way. The A6M Zero outperformed the F4F Wildcat in every statisitcal category except diving speed, though the Wildcat was more rugged and better-armed. The B5N Kate was markedly superior to the obsolete TBD Devastator (and carried the best torpedo in the world in the Type 91 Long Lance). The only parity was in dive bombers, where the SBD Dauntless was generally a slightly better aircraft than the D3A Val.

And...
Just to make matters slightly worse, the American torpedoes quite often simply did not work. This applied to both air borne and submarine torpedoes. At one point late in the battle, an American submarine managed to let a torpedo off at one of the Japanese carriers (either Hiryu or Soryu, iirc). The torpedo struck the carrier and broke in two, with the warhead (in the smaller portion) sinking to the bottom, and the other half being used as an impromptu floatation device by a group of Japanese sailors.
Parity didn't come until a Japanese torpedo washed ashore and was recovered intact by the US (at Guadalcanal, iirc).

*chuckle*
Can you imagine playing Wing Commander like that? Get set up for one of the nastier torpedo runs (probably cap ships in WC2), make your way to point blank range and let her go, and then have the torpedo hit without detonating.
That'd be just a little bit frustrating...

Fighter parity didn't come until later on, with the introduction of the Hellcat and the Corsair.
 
That actually happened in Action Stations....sort of. The Varni who designed the torpedoes for the Kilrathi sabotaged many of them. The Concordia would've been lost early in the battle had it not been for this.
 
Originally posted by junior


an you imagine playing Wing Commander like that? Get set up for one of the nastier torpedo runs (probably cap ships in WC2), make your way to point blank range and let her go, and then have the torpedo hit without detonating.
That'd be just a little bit frustrating...


Many Argentinian bombs dropped against England ships in the Malvinas/Falklands War didn´t explode, they merely dmaged the ships only
 
Throughout the entire series that ship took a horrible beating. My favorite quote from the series concerning the Concordia is as follows:

"In Anguish Geoff Tolwyn watched the flickering two dimensional image on the tactical display. All holo displays were now off line as was primary shielding, jump engines, and port launch deck. CONCORDIA had survived two more torpedo hits and was crippled, barely able to make twenty percent speed." - p276 FLEET ACTION
 
Well of course in the final run it didn't matter since the Concordia was lost eventually anyway, but the duds gave them enough time to hold off the Kilrathi.
 
Originally posted by Wildshot
That actually happened in Action Stations....sort of. The Varni who designed the torpedoes for the Kilrathi sabotaged many of them. The Concordia would've been lost early in the battle had it not been for this.

Yeah, but its one thing to read about it happening to someone else.
Its another thing entirely to experience it in a non-scripted event.
 
Originally posted by pygmypiranha
Throughout the entire series that ship took a horrible beating. My favorite quote from the series concerning the Concordia is as follows:

different ships in the 2 shows.


British fighters in WWII were decent, and american fighters were by the end the best. The Mustang, Lightning, Thunderbolt, Hellcat, and Corsair were all superb fighters.

The British Spitfires were quite good as well.

Probably the single greatest advantage to the allies, was the RR Merlin engine, which gave the mustang, the hurricane, and the spitfire their engines
 
Originally posted by Manic
The only thing worse than an American WWII fighter... was a BRITISH WWII fighter.
Hmmm. You know, I'm a red-blooded American, but I see a serious problem with the comment above. You see, I seem to recall a little aircraft called the SPITFIRE, that is generally regarded as one of the finest fighters of WWII. And it served from day one through the end of hostilities.

Second, you might want to be a little more specific in your comments that imply American fighters were poor. Early craft may have been largely inferior (primarily due to obsolesence), but as the war progressed, the US produced some fantastic warbirds. The P-51 MUSTANG is largely regarded as the BEST overall fighter of the war. The P-47 THUNDERBOLT was unmatched as a fighter-bomber. The F6F HELLCAT and F4U CORSAIR are hailed as the epitome of piston-engined naval fighters. And the TBF AVENGER, despite its inauspicious start at (ironically enough) Midway, turned out to be the premier torpedo bomber of WWII. All of these were American made.
 
Originally posted by Wildshot
BTW, I'm very impressed with how much everyone in the CZ knows of history!
I know next to nothing - especially of American history.

Originally posted by junior
The Japanese had a Zero crash land in the Aleutians in such a fashion that the pilot was killed instantly, but the plane itself was completely intact.
Wow, how did that happen?

Originally posted by Ender
But he had a great view when the rest of the strike group arrived and avenged Pearl Harbor.
That's a view I wouldn't pay to see - I'd be trying to get away from it!

Originally posted by Ender
self sealing fuel tanks
As in the tanks seal themselves if a rupture occurs? How does that work?

Originally posted by Manic
The only thing worse than an American WWII fighter... was a BRITISH WWII fighter.
Huh? As I said, my history knowledge is lacking, but the fighters Hurricane and Spitfire comes to mind... [wait, read the rest of the thread.]
 
Originally posted by Wedge009

Wow, how did that happen?

It wasn't *completely* intact... It touched down and then flipped, killing the pilot but leaving the plane incredibly salvagable. It was then rebuilt by American engineers to a state where it was flyable.
 
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