Whose Victory?

pygmypiranha

Vice Admiral
Kevin Smiled weakly and then saw his uncle kneeling by his side.
"Did we win?" he whispered.
Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn nodded, no longer able to fight back the tears.
"Yes son, we won."

p296 FLEET ACTION

Now I realize that the Confederation did loose a lot of ships in the Battle for Terra, but was the battle a victory for the Confederation because they did turn back the Kilrathi, or was Tolwyn just saying that they won to make his nephew feel better. Comments...
 
Kevin damned well knew it wouldn't be a magically happy day. He knew that the Kilrathi had already devestated them and surviving was a long shot. He would, of course, therefore be asking whether they had managed to stop the Kilrathi.
 
Well, it certainly was a better ending than Earth burning, but was it a victory or a defeat for the Confederation? In WWII, the Battle of the Coral Sea was described as a US victory, but the Japanese thought it was their victory. It all depends on a person's point of view of the situation and its outcome. Personally I am torn because yes the Confederation did stop the Kilrathi, but yet they got their asses kicked.
 
The kilrathi seemed to have failed their objective. so they failed. cant say that confed won this one though, except in this case survival counts as winning.
 
You also have to look at through the perspective of the different species. Judging by the emperor's reaction in the beggining of WC3, I don't think the Kilrathi considered it a victory. They set out with the objective to totally obliterate mankind, yet they wound up being forced to retreat. A retreat of any kind would seem to be a dishonor to the Kilrathi. Only the rare Kilrathi pragmatists would see the victory for what it was, the rest would see it as a dishonorable failure. Although it has to be the most succesful failure I've ever seen.
 
It really wasn't a very successful failure. If you look at the entire plan, things went quite wrong. It's not just that they didn't destroy the Earth. It's that they didn't when they damned well should have.
 
A good point. The Kilrathi were dumping out fighters all the way home and still had one old Carrier and one super Carrier intact. If the Kilrathi had been smart they would have been able to do a heck of a lot more damage. We have seen the same fault in history. Everyone remembers Pearl Harbor, think of what would have happened if the Japanese had continued their attacks with a third and force air strike.
 
Originally posted by pygmypiranha
... In WWII, the Battle of the Coral Sea was described as a US victory, but the Japanese thought it was their victory. It all depends on a person's point of view of the situation and its outcome. ...
In the case of the Coral Sea, it was a STRATEGIC and MORAL victory for the U.S, in that they stopped the Japanese advance in the Southern Pacific. It was a TACTICAL victory for the Japanese, as they inflicted more damage on the U.S. forces (one heavy carrier, destoyer, tanker sunk and one heavy carrier damaged to one light carrier sunk and one heavy carrier damaged).

Indirectly, Coral Sea also negatively affected the Japanese at Midway a month later, as the carriers Shokaku (damaged) and Zuikaku (drastically depleted flight crew) were unavailable. Had the Japanese had those two carriers as originally planned, the outcome might well have been very different than the turning point as we see Midway now.
 
I think it's like the Battle of Antiem in the US Civil War. While both sides really made it into more of a draw, since the Confederate objective wasn't accomplished (and they were forced back), it made it a Union victory. Same as with the Confederation.
 
Battle of Terra:
Kilrathi Objective: Destroy Earth to defeat the Terran Confederation and the end the war victoriously for the Kilrathi.
Result: Failure.
Terran Objective: Survive.
Result: Success.
Closing remarks: IMHO this battle is a success for the Confederation. The Kilrathi objective was foiled, buying time for one last ditch effort against the Kilrathi. To argue that Confed lost simply because of the terrible toll in lives and hardware is to discredit the massive effort achieved against overwhelming odds.
 
Originally posted by OriginalPhoenix

In the case of the Coral Sea, it was a STRATEGIC and MORAL victory for the U.S, in that they stopped the Japanese advance in the Southern Pacific. It was a TACTICAL victory for the Japanese, as they inflicted more damage on the U.S. forces (one heavy carrier, destoyer, tanker sunk and one heavy carrier damaged to one light carrier sunk and one heavy carrier damaged).

Indirectly, Coral Sea also negatively affected the Japanese at Midway a month later, as the carriers Shokaku (damaged) and Zuikaku (drastically depleted flight crew) were unavailable. Had the Japanese had those two carriers as originally planned, the outcome might well have been very different than the turning point as we see Midway now.
Actually, the main cause of the loss at Midway was the Alleutian Islands campaign, which was going on at the same time. Yamomoto wanted all the fleet there at Midway, but the emperor split his navy in two, weakening the forces greatly. However, there was some impact to the battle, thanks to the losses suffered at the Coral Sea battle.
 
Originally posted by Manic

Actually, the main cause of the loss at Midway was the Alleutian Islands campaign, which was going on at the same time. Yamomoto wanted all the fleet there at Midway, but the emperor split his navy in two, weakening the forces greatly.
'Fraid you are very mistaken on your history, there. First, the Emperor had nothing at all to do with the Battle of Midway; indeed, the emperor had little to do with the Japanese military at all. The entire Midway campaign, including the Aleutians, was the brain-child of Yammamoto.

Second, the Japanese fleet in the Aleutians was quite small, headed by two light carriers. The bulk of the Japanese fleet was at Midway (minus the SHOKAKU and ZUIKAKU, which were out of action due to Coral Sea). That fleet at Midway was the largest and strongest ever assembled up to that point -- not at ALL weak.

Third, the main reason the Japanese failed at Midway was because the US had broken a sizable chunk of their military codes. Through some wonderfully clever messaging, the US was able to fill in the missing info, and knew essentially what was going on.

The Dolittle raid had unnerved the Japanese High Command, as they now realized their homeland, and thus the Emperor, was vulnerable to attack. Yammamoto's objective was to draw the US carriers out via the attack on US territory (the Aleutians), then spring a trap using the bulk of the fleet when the real attack emerged at Midway. The Japanese thought we only had two carriers in the Pacific (they thought they'd sunk the YORKTOWN at Coral Sea), and figured even without the SHOKAKU and ZUIKAKU, the other four fleet carriers would easily dispatch the Americans, who would then be forced to sue for peace

However, since the US knew the plan, they didn't bite at the Aleutians (a small cruiser and destroyer force was sent, but no carriers). The US carriers left Pearl Harbor before the Japanese established their picket line of subs, and storms kept Japanese long-range patrol planes from checking to see if they were in port. YORKTOWN, HORNET, and ENTERPRISE set up an ambush of their own, waiting NE of Midway.

When the Japanese carrier craft attacked the island, the US commander (Ray Spruance) employed a measure of "calculated risk", launching his planes at extreme range, bargaining on catching the Japanese carriers at their most vulnerable -- recovering and/or launching aircraft. I won't go into the specifics, but suffice to say that through some luck it worked, and the Japanese lost all four fleet carriers on June 4, 1942. The Japanese managed to find and heavily damage YORKTOWN, which was eventually sunk by a Japanese submarine while being towed to Pearl.

Midway is a great example of effective Intelligence, and the dangers of arrogance in wartime. The entire operation was just too complex, and certain checks were not realized. It was the last major offensive operation the Japanese undertook, and their first naval defeat in centuries. But the Emperor had nothing to do with it.
 
I remember that, that's where they got the idea in Fleet Action to figure out where the Kilrathi were going to attack.

The Americans had broken the Japanese codes and knew they were going to attack but they didn't know where. All theyknow is that it was refferred to as "Target X" . So they guessed Midway and started a rumor circulating that Midway was out of water. Next days Japanese codes read, "Target X is out of water" Same thing in fleet action with the weapons plant(I think it was a weapons plant) on the moon.

BTW, I'm very impressed with how much everyone in the CZ knows of history!
 
Actually, Wildshot... I got that information from the History Channel. He(the emperor) rarely stepped in, but he had thought that the US fleet would divide itself in order to defend the islands to the north. They didn't realize that the US didn't really give a flying whoop about the people there... So they met up with half the Japanese navy against a full US naval unit. Hence the failure. Yamomoto had made a couple mistakes all on his own, though... he sent a couple of heavy carriers to assist in the assault on New Ginuea, further weakening his fleet. Poor fool didn't think he'd need them.
edit- I just love the History Channel series 'Great Military Blunders' :D
 
Originally posted by Manic
Actually, Wildshot... I got that information from the History Channel. He(the emperor) rarely stepped in, but he had thought that the US fleet would divide itself in order to defend the islands to the north. They didn't realize that the US didn't really give a flying whoop about the people there... So they met up with half the Japanese navy against a full US naval unit. Hence the failure. Yamomoto had made a couple mistakes all on his own, though... he sent a couple of heavy carriers to assist in the assault on New Ginuea, further weakening his fleet. Poor fool didn't think he'd need them.

Even some errors there, iirc. The US did send some ships to the Aleutians, but it was just a small cruiser squadron, headed by the Salt Lake City, I think.
As far as heavy carriers go, Yamamoto didn't have any other heavy carriers at the time, so I don't know how he could have sent any to New Guinea. The Japanese navy only had six heavy carriers, and as Phoenix stated, two of them were in port for repairs and resupply following Coral Sea.
There's a good book about the whole thing called "Miracle at Midway", although I can't remember the name of the author (he also wrote a book on Pearl Harbor called "At Dawn We Slept").
Most interesting stories out of all of this?
The Japanese had a Zero crash land in the Aleutians in such a fashion that the pilot was killed instantly, but the plane itself was completely intact. The Americans recovered it a few months later.
Also, the Hiryu (the last Japanese carrier to go down) was in flames, and the crew abandoned ship. The engineering crew was cut off by the flames, and believed dead. The Japanese cruised away while the carrier was still afloat (albeit a raging inferno). A few days later, the Americans recovered a very bitter engineering crew who had slipped off the carrier just before she finally slipped beneath the waves (iirc, the flames went out before the ship finally sank).
There are other stories, of course. Midway is an excellent battle to become familiar with, if only because of the myriad of stories associated with it.
 
I thought the Saratoga was also at Midway. Also, the Japanese had several light carriers along which also got mauled. The fleet carriers what were sunk were the Hiru, Soru, Kaga and Akagi.

Another Midway- Battle of Terra parallel, the Broadswords going in like the Light Brigade made me tink of Torpedo Squadron Eight going in alone against the endire Japanese carrier force. Due to a mix up, they did not link up with the combined strike package of dive bombers and fighters. They located the enemy fleet, and went in alone. All but one plane was shot down. Of the aircraft shot down only one man survived, and he had to "play dead" in the middle of the Japanese fleet for several hours. But he had a great view when the rest of the strike group arrived and avanged Pearl Harbor.

Topredo Squadron Eight's sacrifice drew off the Japanese fighter cover, allowing the SBD dive bombers to inflict heavy damage for relatively light casualties. WC used Broadswords to draw the Kilrathi away fron the Marine LC's unti it was too late.
 
I thought the Saratoga was also at Midway.
Nope, she was in SanDiego getting repaired from a submarine torpedo hit.

Also, the Japanese had several light carriers along which also got mauled. The fleet carriers what were sunk were the Hiru, Soru, Kaga and Akagi.
The Japanese used the RYUHO in the Aleutians, and the ZUIHO was back with the main battle fleet some 700 miles behind the carriers. The HOSHO was in New Guinea. All of these were light carriers (the HOSHO carried, in fact, only about 20 aircraft), and NONE were touched in the battle.

Another Midway- Battle of Terra parallel, the Broadswords going in like the Light Brigade made me tink of Torpedo Squadron Eight going in alone against the endire Japanese carrier force. Due to a mix up, they did not link up with the combined strike package of dive bombers and fighters. They located the enemy fleet, and went in alone. All but one plane was shot down. Of the aircraft shot down only one man survived, and he had to "play dead" in the middle of the Japanese fleet for several hours. But he had a great view when the rest of the strike group arrived and avanged Pearl Harbor.
ALL of the US torpedo planes attacked alone, all three squadrons. Of 41 total planes, only 5 came back. Torpedo Squadron Eight, off of HORNET, lost all 15 planes, and only Ens. George Gay survived.

Topredo Squadron Eight's sacrifice drew off the Japanese fighter cover, allowing the SBD dive bombers to inflict heavy damage for relatively light casualties.
Indeed.
 
Thank you for the corrections. But at least I got the gist of it.
Hmmm.... I guess the light carriers were providing fighter cover for Yammamoto's group. But he'd learn about having effective figter cover soon enough. :D
 
Actually, Wildshot... I got that information from the History Channel.
I don't care WHERE you got it, it's incorrect.

He(the emperor) rarely stepped in, but he had thought that the US fleet would divide itself in order to defend the islands to the north.
Nonsense. The whole point of the Midway Operation was to eradicate the US fleet in one fell swoop. The Japanese knew they had a massive numerical and experience superiority. There was never any intention to divide the US fleet, only to bring it into battle when and where the Japanese desired.

They didn't realize that the US didn't really give a flying whoop about the people there...
What people? Other than Dutch Harbor, Attu and Kiska (the two islands occupied) were prety much unihabited. The US knew that even if the Japanese took the military installation, there was no significant danger from them, and the logistics of supplying them from Japan would be strenuous at best.

So they met up with half the Japanese navy against a full US naval unit. Hence the failure.
Crap. The Japanese had 6 fleet carriers in the Pacific at the time. Two were in port getting repaired and training a new flight wing following Coral Sea. The remainder were at Midway (and ultimately were sunk), along with a couple of light carriers with the Main Battle Fleet and the invasion force. A few light carriers were spread at the Aluetians and New Guinea. The BULK of the Japanese fleet was at Midway.

The US, on the other hand, had four carriers in the Pacific. SARATOGA was in San Diego being repaired. YORKTOWN was hastily repaired following Midway in order to join HORNET and ENTERPRISE at Point Luck NE of the island, and wait in ambush. There was never, EVER, an intention to send any US carriers to the Aleutians.

Yamomoto had made a couple mistakes all on his own, though... he sent a couple of heavy carriers to assist in the assault on New Ginuea, further weakening his fleet.
Crap, crap, crap. All of the Japanese heavy carriers were accounted for. See above.

Poor fool didn't think he'd need them.
Now you have some measure of truth here. Some of Yammamoto's advisors suggested waiting until the SHOKAKU and ZUIKAKU were ready, in order to have the entire Pearl Harbor strike force reunited for the battle. Yammamoto felt that the other four heavy carriers would suffice, since they believed only two US carriers remained.

edit- I just love the History Channel series 'Great Military Blunders' :D
I'd like it a lot better if they would get the facts right.
 
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