When and how.....

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You know, we hear all about this terrorism stuff for years and years -- but it never seems to actually happen. I find it hard to believe that Iraq could possibly hate us more than they did after (or during) the Gulf War... why haven't they terrorized us?
 
how do you know they haven't. Nobody is possitive that TWA 800 wasn't terrorism. And there have been other instances over the years as well. And just because a person/government can do a thing does not mean they will do that thing. About a week or two ago some iraqi govenment operatives baught something like 1000 psx and 10ps2 and are going to use them as the targeting systems for some missiles
 
Originally posted by Napoleon
About a week or two ago some iraqi govenment operatives baught something like 1000 psx and 10ps2 and are going to use them as the targeting systems for some missiles

So, I have this bridge to sell you.

(Blair was wrong -- sarcasm *doesn't* take too much work!)
 
Originally posted by TC
Secondly, it has a huge amount of land and natural resources, it definately has the capacity to grow economically. This is not true for all countries.

TC

Guess what, its not true for ANY country. It has been said by many scientists that the maximum sustainable global population is 2 Billion. China has less than a sixth of the land mass of the Earth and 1.3 Billion people. How do they have room to grow?

The maximum you should fit in China would be around (2 Billion/6) around 1/3 billion. Also, much of China is desert or poor arid steppe. Why don't you get outside of your little box and see the world?

As for the one child policy. China's sure doing hell of a lot better than India. They're over a billion and counting. China's population is "beginning" to level out.
 
I like how, on the internet, the way to scientifically prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt is to claim that a scientist said so.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
You know, we hear all about this terrorism stuff for years and years -- but it never seems to actually happen. I find it hard to believe that Iraq could possibly hate us more than they did after (or during) the Gulf War... why haven't they terrorized us?

Because our intelligence agencies are on the job. Just
a couple weeks ago I read in the Washington Post about this
guy in Jordan who had been conspiring with Osama Bin Laden
to blow up something or other. Two years ago someone
was caught smuggling explosives across the Canadian border,
and that led to the unravelling of a terrorist plot.

So.. people do try to terrorize us. Sometimes they succeed
(Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Embassies in Africa etc.). More
often they fail. When they fail it may rate a 1- or 2-line
story in the Post or NY Times -- but
it's there if you look for it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
Terrorism can come in many forms. Not just in a bombing or blowing something up. Economical terrorism would do far more damage than any bomb. Environmental terrorism can make our water and air unusable. More devistating than a bomb. Inject a poison into a city's water supply and you can wipe out an entire populace in one sweep, more effective than a bomb. But let us ask the real reasons why terrorism exists in the first place. The US goes around and forces a way of life on peoples we have no right of doing to begin with, hence the people of the targeted country hate us. To bomb a city or a countries defenses just to preserve some big corporations oil interests is not a good way to improve overall world peace. Who are we to tell some country you cant fly in certian areas of your own country? A dictator like Saddam Insane does need to be taken out of power, but when you throw young american soldiers into a battle that has nothing to do with securing our own territorial boarders is dead wrong. Who benefited from the Desert Storm anyway? I will give 3 guesses and the first two dont count. Yep, big oil! Those countries have exsites thousands of years long before we came around. They have fought all those years there isnt any amount of bombing or restrictions that will change their ideals and ways of life.
Its counter-productive. And all we are doing is creating the enemy when we want world peace! Cant have it both ways.



RFBurns


[Edited by RFBurns on 02-20-2001 at 17:18]
 
Originally posted by RFBurns
Terrorism can come in many forms. Not just in a bombing or blowing something up. Economical terrorism would do far more damage than any bomb. Environmental terrorism can make our water and air unusable. More devistating than a bomb. Inject a poison into a city's water supply and you can wipe out an entire populace in one sweep, more effective than a bomb.

True, but not terribly easy. Remember that group in Tokyo
that tried to gas the subway? It was a miserable failure.
That's why terrorists tend to prefer conventional weapons:

1. Cheaper, easier to acquire, less easily trackable.
2. Requires less expertise.
3. *Relatively* less dangerous to the user. You can
die from dynamite, but not from a drop spilled on your
skin.


But let us ask the real reasons why terrorism exists in the first place. The US goes around and forces a way of life on peoples we have no right of doing to begin with, hence the people of the targeted country hate us. To bomb a city or a countries defenses just to preserve some big corporations oil interests is not a good way to improve overall world peace. Who are we to tell some country you cant fly in certian areas of your own country? A dictator like Saddam Insane does need to be taken out of power, but when you throw young american soldiers into a battle that has nothing to do with securing our own territorial boarders is dead wrong.

Well .. that's assuming that your country's interests stop
at your territorial borders. This means that you will not
protect your nationals who travel overseas. If you read
about the "Barbary Pirates" in US history, you'll see what
comes of that -- your people are kidnapped, held hostage,
murdered, and forced into slavery.

It's also assuming that you and your people are willing to
stand idly by while evil happens in the world. While
big countries destroy small ones. While Serbs kill Kosovans
and vice versa. If you stand idly by while evil happens,
does it not make you complicit in it?

Finally, one of the lessons we Americans have learned is
that we can ignore the world -- but it won't ignore us.
We withdrew from world affairs after WWI, and WWII was
the partial result. It's a mistake we won't make again this century.



Who benefited from the Desert Storm anyway?

The people of Kuwait, who got their country back and were
able to be free of the looting/torture that was occuring there.

The people of Saudi Arabia, who had a dangerous neighbor
reined in and an invasion threat disposed of.

The people of Isreal, who saw Iraq's nuclear program (aimed,
of course, at them) set back several years.

The entire world, since the world's oil supply remains
in the hands of peaceful countries, and not in the grip
of a single dictator.

Ask yourself this: Would you really want Saddam Hussein
to control the world's oil supply? If not, what will you
do about it?

Saudi Arabia is the jugular of the western world. It's
more than the price of gas at the pump -- it's fuel for
tanks, aircraft, ships, and all the other paraphernalia
of war. Should a major war ever break out again, it is
imperative that this oil remain in friendly, or at least
neutral, hands. And the time to ensure this is NOT
five minutes before the next war breaks out, but now.
The Price of Freedom.


Its counter-productive. And all we are doing is creating the enemy when we want world peace! Cant have it both ways.

So ... you think that if America just put down its weapons,
destroyed our arms, and withdrew behind our borders, there
would be universal world peace?

I disagree. I think, if we did, the war in Yugoslavia
would still rage. I think Saddam, seeing how he got
away with Kuwait, would set his eyes on larger, more
profitable conquests. I think the world is a dangerous,
violent place and that we do more good by going out into
it and actively restraining evil than by huddling behind
our thousand-mile moat. And if we did turn our backs
on the world, I suspect many of the same people who curse
us for poking our noses into things would instead curse
us for not helping people who need our help. Witness
Rwanda: we didn't intervene there, and we were roundly
condemned for not stopping the genocide. We DID intervene
in other places, and we are condemned as warmongers.
Can't win :).


Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
Perhaps some intervention in keeping peace, but not at the expense of our soldiers and equipment in order to maintain a flow of oil. If there were not all that oil in Kuwait, would the US have any interest in it being invaded by Hussain? As to travel abroad, everyone takes risks when entering a forign country. But to attempt world peace by forcing people to change their way of life after thousands of years living like that, whats the point? If the US intends on being world police, you have to begin to break down the boarders and form a one world government. As long as countries have boarders, they will want to have their own life style. Let me ask this, what if the situations were reversed, and the Soviet Union had won the cold war and prospered rather than the US. Would you want them comming over here telling you how to live, what you will become in life, and where and when you can get in an airplane and fly? Maybe the government of Iraq is wrong, but think of its citizens, the ones caught in the crossfire. And to say well thats a casualty of war, thats BS. Its easy to say that when there isnt any bombing going on in Central Park NY. Would be a whole different attitude if Iraqi planes were dropping bombs on Yosemite Nat. Park!

RFBurns
 
Originally posted by pendell
Originally posted by RFBurns
Terrorism can come in many forms. Not just in a bombing or blowing something up. Economical terrorism would do far more damage than any bomb. Environmental terrorism can make our water and air unusable. More devistating than a bomb. Inject a poison into a city's water supply and you can wipe out an entire populace in one sweep, more effective than a bomb.

True, but not terribly easy. Remember that group in Tokyo
that tried to gas the subway? It was a miserable failure.
That's why terrorists tend to prefer conventional weapons:

1. Cheaper, easier to acquire, less easily trackable.
2. Requires less expertise.
3. *Relatively* less dangerous to the user. You can
die from dynamite, but not from a drop spilled on your
skin.


-There are a lot of crazy people, like one that pick up a gun and go shooting people on the streets.


But let us ask the real reasons why terrorism exists in the first place. The US goes around and forces a way of life on peoples we have no right of doing to begin with, hence the people of the targeted country hate us. To bomb a city or a countries defenses just to preserve some big corporations oil interests is not a good way to improve overall world peace. Who are we to tell some country you cant fly in certian areas of your own country? A dictator like Saddam Insane does need to be taken out of power, but when you throw young american soldiers into a battle that has nothing to do with securing our own territorial boarders is dead wrong.

Well .. that's assuming that your country's interests stop
at your territorial borders. This means that you will not
protect your nationals who travel overseas. If you read
about the "Barbary Pirates" in US history, you'll see what
comes of that -- your people are kidnapped, held hostage,
murdered, and forced into slavery.

It's also assuming that you and your people are willing to
stand idly by while evil happens in the world. While
big countries destroy small ones. While Serbs kill Kosovans
and vice versa. If you stand idly by while evil happens,
does it not make you complicit in it?

Finally, one of the lessons we Americans have learned is
that we can ignore the world -- but it won't ignore us.
We withdrew from world affairs after WWI, and WWII was
the partial result. It's a mistake we won't make again this century.

-Well, what the US did to break free from GB is also terrorism, that was called by the GB to the rebels.


Who benefited from the Desert Storm anyway?

The people of Kuwait, who got their country back and were
able to be free of the looting/torture that was occuring there.

The people of Saudi Arabia, who had a dangerous neighbor
reined in and an invasion threat disposed of.

The people of Isreal, who saw Iraq's nuclear program (aimed,
of course, at them) set back several years.

The entire world, since the world's oil supply remains
in the hands of peaceful countries, and not in the grip
of a single dictator.

Ask yourself this: Would you really want Saddam Hussein
to control the world's oil supply? If not, what will you
do about it?

Saudi Arabia is the jugular of the western world. It's
more than the price of gas at the pump -- it's fuel for
tanks, aircraft, ships, and all the other paraphernalia
of war. Should a major war ever break out again, it is
imperative that this oil remain in friendly, or at least
neutral, hands. And the time to ensure this is NOT
five minutes before the next war breaks out, but now.
The Price of Freedom.

-the price of freedom is also make a pact with evil?
It looks that way, since Saudi Arabia regular violates the common ideas of civil rights.


Its counter-productive. And all we are doing is creating the enemy when we want world peace! Cant have it both ways.

So ... you think that if America just put down its weapons,
destroyed our arms, and withdrew behind our borders, there
would be universal world peace?

I disagree. I think, if we did, the war in Yugoslavia
would still rage. I think Saddam, seeing how he got
away with Kuwait, would set his eyes on larger, more
profitable conquests. I think the world is a dangerous,
violent place and that we do more good by going out into
it and actively restraining evil than by huddling behind
our thousand-mile moat. And if we did turn our backs
on the world, I suspect many of the same people who curse
us for poking our noses into things would instead curse
us for not helping people who need our help. Witness
Rwanda: we didn't intervene there, and we were roundly
condemned for not stopping the genocide. We DID intervene
in other places, and we are condemned as warmongers.
Can't win :).

-Yes, it would, but like you said it was a war, ruanda had many mistakes mades since US is never very good in dealing with guerrilla warfare, there is more that go there make "safe area" and start bad prepared operations that end up in fiascos.
Besides it was those errors that made the president to back up from there.

 
Originally posted by Dragon

-the price of freedom is also make a pact with evil?

Actually, what I meant was "The Price of Freedom is
eternal vigilance", meaning the time to prepare for the
next war is now, and not go to sleep and let it blow up
in our faces.

As to Saudi Arabia -- wouldn't it be nice if we could
only deal with angels?

Tragically, there is a shortage of them in the world. It's
either deal with devils or replace them with someone else
-- which we can't because A) it isn't necessarily easy
to find a qualified person who isn't a worse devil and
B) who gave us the right to appoint country's leaders,
anyway?

So no, I don't think the price of freedom is a pact with
evil. You can be vigilant, and alone. But I do think the price of having allies is a pact with evil.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
Yes, that is the price of oil prices to the world.
What is plain wrong is leaders giving speches about indevidual rights in some countrys that are not allied with then and ignore others that do the same thing.
Not only the US is guilty of that, UK middle east politics is hostage of saudi arabia since it needs its oil.
Its just damn wrong to people to die only for money sake, not for doing the right thing, I liked the US doing what they did in the Balcans, that guy was a nazi in my book, now he just hides under a rock were he could no longer do any harm to anyone.
 
Originally posted by RFBurns
Perhaps some intervention in keeping peace, but not at the expense of our soldiers and equipment in order to maintain a flow of oil.

Why not? As I said, it's a vital strategic resource,
as well as the lifeblood of the west. Why not die to
maintain it?


If the US intends on being world police, you have to begin to break down the boarders and form a one world government. As long as countries have boarders, they will want to have their own life style.

Why shouldn't they have their own lifestyle? As long
as that lifestyle doesn't include murdering American
citizens, or building nuclear missiles to threaten
their neighbors, or to go rampaging around in
strategically vital areas, I see no reason for America
to interfere. How does protecting America's citizens
and interests overseas require us to tear down all
the borders?


Let me ask this, what if the situations were reversed, and the Soviet Union had won the cold war and prospered rather than the US. Would you want them comming over here telling you how to live, what you will become in life, and where and when you can get in an airplane and fly?

I suggest the cases are not the same.
The no-fly zones weren't simply established for the sake
of bullying the Iraqis -- they were established after
the invasion of Kuwait, and the subsequent Gulf War, for
the purpose of controlling a dictator, and to make it easier to overthrow him. If I were an Iraqi citizen, I wouldn't want no-fly
zones, but I wouldn't want to be ruled by an irresponsible
dictator who kept marching people off to losing wars, either.

I agree that our current policy is misguided,
since we tend to hurt a great number of ordinary Iraqis
without damaging Saddam Hussein's grip or altering his
behavior. I suspect that we are using the Milosevic model -- hoping to discredit his regime enough that his own people will overthrow him. NOT likely! I suspect that we would get faster results if
we did it ourselves. Unfortunately, I'm willing to bet
the Saudis would never let us use their territory as a base for that. And we'd probably be accused of reviving
colonialism, as well :(.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
Originally posted by Dragon

What is plain wrong is leaders giving speches about indevidual rights in some countrys that are not allied with then and ignore others that do the same thing.

I agree. It's hypocrisy, isn't it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
I would just like to remind everybody here, that in the 1980's the united states sold weapons to Iraq in an attempt to give them weapons for their war with Iran, then they turned around and used the weapons we gave them against another nieghbor and what do we do? We go and kill alot of them for it.
 
LOAF, if you destroy all of Iraq's weapons you indeed don't need to worry about it, but I don't think that's the point of peacekeeping :).


Everybody else: There's a lot of posts here, and I'm not gonna bother replying to them all individually. On the whole, however, they seem rather amusing - you guys seem to almost be assuming that a) America has a duty to intervene everywhere else, and b) without America, the world will collapse upon itself. I'm not even gonna bother explaining to you why both of those assumptions are completly wrong :).

Oh, and Napoleon, please stop spreading American ("American" means the government, not the people) propaganda. Saddam Hussein did not import Playstations of any kind. Why would anybody even think that a Playstation II would be useful military equipment? He also does not have all that much bioweapons - certainly, he probably has some, but the American government tends to blow things out of proportions in order to keep the sanctions in place.
 
Well, this is has fun but;

"10) Please be aware of the fact that the CIC is limited in bandwidth & server space"

It's okay if a thread drifts off occasionally, but this one has gone on long enough.
 
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