What's the most powerful Confed cap ship?

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by Earthworm
Carriers are extremly valubale capships, but I don't think you could call them dominant... That would be dreadnoughts, which are basicly heavy battle ships with fighter wings. A ship like the WC3 Kilrathi dreadnouhgt was and still is an extremly powerfull ship that could take on a small fleet, even though it didn't carry many fighters.

Dreadnoughts are the commandships of the WC universe - powerful, yes, but I doubt they're present enough on the battlefield to make much of a difference. Carriers, on the other hand, are numerous and very important (I counted six Concordia-class carriers in the losing endgame of WC4, and that doesn't count any possible remaining Ranger-class and Confederation-class ships, and was only representative of ONE strike force!). I would say that carriers are the most important warship in the WC universe because most of the really important battles in the latter part of the war are decided by carrier-based fighters, not heavy capital ships trading fire (Battle of Coral Sea, anybody???). It was carrier-based fighters, after all, that determined the very outcome of the Kilrathi War...

First, there are the Vesuvius-style "dreadnought" carriers. These ships are very large and very massive, designed to combine the functions of battleship and heavy carrier, though with a distinct bias toward the carrier function.

Dreadnought carriers? There's no such things, the Vesuvius class was never intended to function as a carrier combined with a battle ship.

The Vesuvius and the St. Helens were trading some pretty hefty firepower in Wing Commander IV - they appeared to have AMGs top and bottom, fore and aft. It seems pretty clear that as originally designed by Adm. Tolwyn, the TCS Vesuvius was supposed to be a dreadnought; the successor to the Confederation-class dreadnoughts. In other words, the Vesuvius is the Confed equivalent, it seems, of an Imperial Imperator-class star destroyer or, more appropriately, an Executor or Eclipse-class command ship.

The Kilrathi dreadnought is an out-of-scale monstrosity that is too large for its own good (as can be proven in mission Sol 2, but unfortunately too late to change the outcome of the war). The resources put into building it could have been much better used in building a large number of much smaller ships - I'm betting that the only reason it was built at all is because of the political importance of Prince Thrakhath.

[Edited by Iceberg on 02-13-2001 at 10:44]

 

[iCe]

The Kilrathi Dreadnought is a lot better then the Tiamath, I think. Although it has a plasma gun, the K-Dreadnought was 22 Km long and the Nemphilim was "just" 3.5 Km long.

 

[Napoleon]

No iceburg, the vesuvii are carriers primarily that is why they carry more fighters than any other confederation cap ship ever (that we know of). They also are equiped with defensive weapons against torps, capmis, and fighter attacks and have AMG's to defend against enemy captal ship attacks while being able to deal out damnage themselves, but they are Heavy carriers first and formost

 

[Chameleon102]

The Vesuvius carriers kicked ass. Hell, they could even shoot inside!

That, I feel, is the way that the Kilrathi (and indeed, the Confederation) could have significantly reduced the time of the war. The fighters were all stored inside the flight decks, which you could fly into, killing every fighter inside, and presumably, wreaking havoc in the flight deck.

Why don't they just put the cost aside and just reoutfit all the laser turrets with heavy photon ones (the big yellow bastards in WC3). Those will kill you in two shots. This would make the carrier, and the capital ship in general, a much more viable threat. No longer could an Arrow nuke a strike fleet!

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Iceberg
Dreadnoughts are the commandships of the WC universe - powerful, yes, but I doubt they're present enough on the battlefield to make much of a difference.

Command ships? They are warships, and they are present in combat.

Carriers, on the other hand, are numerous and very important

But without escorts they get whacked...

(I counted six Concordia-class carriers in the losing endgame of WC4, and that doesn't count any possible remaining Ranger-class and Confederation-class ships, and was only representative of ONE strike force!).

No, you didn't count that many Concordia class carriers. Confed didn't have that many of them at the WC4 time, and the Rangers are retired, because they were horribly outdated and the only reason why they were used later in the war was the lack of newer carriers.

It was carrier-based fighters, after all, that determined the very outcome of the Kilrathi War...

Without the huge fleet that acted as a diversion, the Victory with her Excals would never have approached the Kilrah jump point.;-)

The Vesuvius and the St. Helens were trading some pretty hefty firepower in Wing Commander IV - they appeared to have AMGs top and bottom, fore and aft. It seems pretty clear that as originally designed by Adm. Tolwyn, the TCS Vesuvius was supposed to be a dreadnought;

It didn't have the firepower of a dreadnought, and it was never inteded to be a dreadnought, believe me.

The resources put into building it could have been much better used in building a large number of much smaller ships - I'm betting that the only reason it was built at all is because of the political importance of Prince Thrakhath.

That monstrosity was meant as a projection of Thrak's/Imperiar clans power, but it was also a powerfull ship that nothing could have destroyed one on one.

 

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by Earthworm

The Vesuvius and the St. Helens were trading some pretty hefty firepower in Wing Commander IV - they appeared to have AMGs top and bottom, fore and aft. It seems pretty clear that as originally designed by Adm. Tolwyn, the TCS Vesuvius was supposed to be a dreadnought;

It didn't have the firepower of a dreadnought, and it was never inteded to be a dreadnought, believe me.

Um, OK... The Vesuvius has at LEAST four antimatter turrets, and most probably eight (the AMG turrets that we saw firing were mounted on the corners of the hull, and there is no logical reason for them to be mounted asymmetrically).

The Vesuvius has a multitude of defensive and offensive cannon, well in excess of the number carried by ANY other Confederation capital ship.

We have seen Confed carriers in action: the Bengal, (Victory), Concordia and Midway classes. All four of these have plenty in the way of defensive munitions but very little in the way of offensive firepower. Conversely, the Confederation class, which is explicitly named as a Dreadnought, is possessed of bountiful amounts of both offensive and defensive firepower, and plentiful fighter capacity.

Because the Vesuvius has such heavy firepower, it isn't what I'd consider a carrier, and because it has so many fighters aboard, it clearly isn't a battleship. Fortunately, we already have a canon designator in the WC universe for heavy capital ships with both very heavy offensive firepower and large fighter wings.

That name is DREADNOUGHT.

Therefore, by method of elimination, the Vesuvius-class ship MUST be a Dreadnought.

 

[Dragon]

Blair - "well admiral carriers dont fly thenselfs"
Tolwyn- "quite true, it is the man.."

So, the person that laid the especications for the vesuvius class carriers does not know the diference of a carrier and a dreadnaught?

 

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by Dragon
Blair - "well admiral carriers dont fly thenselfs"
Tolwyn- "quite true, it is the man.."

So, the person that laid the especications for the vesuvius class carriers does not know the diference of a carrier and a dreadnaught?

TOLWYN didn't say it was a "carrier," Blair did. A fighter pilot might not appreciate the differences between a carrier and a dreadnought. Tolwyn may have just not felt like correcting Blair at that moment. After all, he was trying to get Blair on his side, it wouldn't have done to harp on technicalities (from a fighter pilot's perspective, the difference between a carrier and a dreadnought is a technicality, unless they're attacking it).

The Vesuvius is QUITE powerful enough to be a dreadnought.

 

[Iceberg]

Also, the Vesuvius might be officially called a "heavy carrier" even though it's actually a dreadnought, for political reasons.

After all, the British Invincible-class carriers are referred to as "Through-Deck Cruisers," even though they have no capital armament and carry aircraft as their primary combat mission.

 

[TC]

Or maybe they classify it a heavy carrier because it's... hmm... I dunno... a heavy carrier??? I can in no way see how the classification of a ship would be influenced by politics.

TC

 

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by TC
Or maybe they classify it a heavy carrier because it's... hmm... I dunno... a heavy carrier??? I can in no way see how the classification of a ship would be influenced by politics.

TC

EVERYTHING in the military is influenced by politics.

In the 1960s, the United Kingdom parliament declared that the Royal Navy would have no more aircraft carriers. The RN decided that this decision was unacceptable, since it would rob them of the air superiority mission. So they co-sponsored the RAF's VTOL fighter program (which became the Harrier and Sea Harrier), and started developing a new class of ships to carry these aircraft. These new ships were called "Through-Deck Cruisers," even though they had no capital armaments and thus were not "cruisers" in the conventional sense. The Invincible-class are clearly aircraft carriers, but their military designation is "Through-Deck Cruiser."

THERE is an example of how a ship classification would be affected by politics.

 

[Napalm]

Ok now which ship is better, Vesuvius class vessels or Midway class?

 

[Dragon]

Napalm, its best not to start this........

The Vesuvius have more fighters that the Midways, but Midways have Marines troops (and landing craft) aboard, something that is not standart aboard Vesuvius.

As a Carrier ship, the Vesuvius are better.
As a Multimission ship, the Midways are better.

 

[Napalm]

Ok sorry I think I should rephrase that, which ship has more and better guns, more fighters, tougher armour and stronger shields, Midway or Vesuvius (I tried looking at the stats page but there is nothing much on the Vesuvius)

 

[Antman]

Going back

Going back to the bottom of this page, it wasn't an Executor class Star Destroyer, it was the I.S.S. Executor Super class Star Destroyer. Also, it was the I.S.S. Eclipse Super class Star Destroyer, and it isn't Imperator imperial class star destroyer, its Imperial 2 class Star Destroyer. Trust me, i've done more research on star wars than all of you put together (Though I personally think that a REALLY screwed up jump by a Vesuvius class "Heavy Cruiser" (Or Supercarrier, or dreadnaught...) that sent in through time and really far away would have kicked ass against some Star Destroyers.

 

[Napalm]

Originally posted by Napalm
Ok sorry I think I should rephrase that, which ship has more and better guns, more fighters, tougher armour and stronger shields, Midway or Vesuvius (I tried looking at the stats page but there is nothing much on the Vesuvius)

Please answer this question before I lose my mind and die

 

[AzraeL]

Okay. As far as I know

The Versuvius carries about 450 fighters/bombers. The Midway carries only about 250, but she also has a full division (division? can't remember the exact terminology but lots anyway) of marines, has a science and research department etc. which makes her far more versatile in her stand-alone peacekeeping role.

ISIS states that the Midway as much better shields than any other ship ever built (including the Versuvius), being the equivalent of a major fixed installation, so she probably has a significant advantage over the Versuvius in this field.

ISIS also states that the Midway has 'relatively' weak armor. However the values for armor are given are significantly greater than any previous vessel listed in the database. This suggests to me that her armor is therefore only weak relative to other vessels her size (i.e. the Versuvius class) or fixed installation. The Versuvius has the advantage in the armor category.

As for guns/weapons, I'm not sure. Often the figures listed tend to be 'classified' (i.e. they don't match the game) or incomplete (in WCP the Midway is not fully operational). One has to remember that both the Versuvius and Midway are primarily carriers, so their primary weapon is always their bomber wings. They are not designed to engage enemy ships directly, although clearly they can do so if pressed. The Midway is listed as carrying a Capship missile launcher while the Versuvius and St Helens trade AMG fire. The Midway is only designed to act as a stand-alone vessel in times of peace, where her opposition would be limited. In times of war she reverts to a role as a carrier in a battle fleet.

 

[Napoleon]

For guns the vesuvii have better guns, they have 32 Laser turrets to the Midway's 25. They also have AMG's while the midway has none.

 

[Iceberg]

Re: Going back

Originally posted by Antman
Going back to the bottom of this page, it wasn't an Executor class Star Destroyer, it was the I.S.S. Executor Super class Star Destroyer. Also, it was the I.S.S. Eclipse Super class Star Destroyer, and it isn't Imperator imperial class star destroyer, its Imperial 2 class Star Destroyer. Trust me, i've done more research on star wars than all of you put together (Though I personally think that a REALLY screwed up jump by a Vesuvius class "Heavy Cruiser" (Or Supercarrier, or dreadnaught...) that sent in through time and really far away would have kicked ass against some Star Destroyers.

"I.S.S." is NOT used to describe Imperial ships. In fact, NO acronym has ever been used on Imperial ships.

The Executor was the first ship of her class, therefore, her class would logically be called "Executor-class." And since the Executor is FAR larger than anything which could be referred to as a destroyer, the term "Star Battlecruiser" or "Star Battleship" would be far more appropriate.

The Eclipse has no such problem - it's been referred to in the literature as both an "Eclipse-class command ship" and "Eclipse-class super star destroyer" (the latter in Rebel-biased literature).

IMHO, a Vesuvius would be nearly an even match for an ISD toe-to-toe, but would mop the floor with the ISD with its fighters.

 

[Dragon]

If there was one it would be GIS (galatic impire ship).
In games there is ISD (Imperial Class star Destroyer) or VSD (Victory Class star Destroyer) before a ship name.
The ISS is use for the Executor on the aliance game, but I have no idea why.

[Edited by Dragon on 02-14-2001 at 21:32]