What would you fight for?

Ghost

Emperor
Originally posted by Ripper
Ive been to England. Its a nice place. The people are friendly, I even played a game of Snooker with some locals in a pub. The barkeep gave me a bar towel afterwards. That was one of my most prized possessions. Stinking movers stole it.:mad:

Well, you know...outside the US there are people living in many countries, and they are civilized too!
Some of them are friendlies..and some of them not...
US isn´t the only place were good and civilized people live
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by Ghost



US isn´t the only place were good and civilized people live
I didnt say it was. The stinking movers that stole my bar towel were (obstensibly) Americans. Or illegal Mexican immigrants. I dont know, since I was in SW Asia when the theft occourred.

Ive been to lots of crappy countries and to some pretty good ones. I havnt been to all of them though, but I know which ones I DONT want to go to. North Korea comes to mind.

I really wish I had gotten the chance to go to Australia. Hopefully, Ill get the chance someday.
 

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Ripper
The U.S. is a Representative Republic. Obviously not the BEST way to go, but in the evolution toward the perfect government, it's the best thing going so far.
Why?

To be a subject is to be less free than someone who is not a subject.
You apparantly don't understand the basic concepts of a constitutional monarchy. The constitution limits the monarchy. Even that power, while theoretically possessed by the Queen, in most cases wouldn't be able to be exercised because it would piss everyone off so much. Canada, where I live, technically has the Queen as it's head of state. I'm proud of that. However, the last time the Queen's representitive tried to use the veto power decades ago pissed everyone off royally. If it were tried again with anything important, the Queen's representitive would be rather quickly removed. I am a subject of Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. However, she, in practice, has no power over me. I have constitutional rights and freedoms that are guaranteed to me.



But what makes me glad I dont live there is when I hear of someone that was thrown in prison for defending himself and his home. And anyone who tries to defend him is told to shut up. Those are assaults on basic rights that I cannot tolerate.
What makes me mad are people who condemn the ways of others without taking the time to understand them. In Britain it is not a right to be allowed to carry firearms. It is not a right to defend your property at all costs. I, personally, agree with this. Britain, as a result, has a much lower proportion of firearm related crime. Hell, many of the police in the UK don't carry guns and, quite frankly, don't need to. People in the UK have the right to speak out if they disagree with this. They aren't told to 'shut up' in any way that carries legal backing...
 

Ghost

Emperor
Originally posted by Ripper


were (obstensibly) Americans. Or illegal Mexican immigrants. I dont know, since I was in SW Asia when the theft occourred.

Ostensibily Americans or illegal Mexican imigrants?
And how do you know?, you were in SW Asia!
Prolly bad cops told you!
And be thankful of the Illegal Mexicans, the make your Tequila.

Originally posted by Ripper


I really wish I had gotten the chance to go to Australia. Hopefully, Ill get the chance someday.
Don´t go there, they are descendants of criminals....and there lives Paul Hogan,Koalas,Kangaroos and Filler :(
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
The Poland thing was because thats where Quarto says he is. It would have been a better example a few years ago when their neck was still under the Soviet boot.
And the US would have been a really bad example 230 years ago or so... what's your point? :p Communist Poland was a different state.

Now, let's review the facts, as they stand today. Poland has plenty of human rights laws, as TC has pointed out. And, if that isn't enough, everyone has the rights to appeal to the Human Rights Tribunal in Strasbourg. So, unlike a US citizen, a Polish citizen can appeal to an international court, if all else fails.

Also, Poland does not deny POWs the rights granted to them by the Geneva Convetion. Poland does not engage in racial profiling. Our police has never gunned down a man because of his/her colour, nor have they ever beaten the hell out of anyone because of his/her colour. All of the above has happened in the US.

All in all, it seems perhaps you're overestimating the human rights advantages of the US. Especially with all the new "security" laws coming into effect after the WTC bombing, you as an American have no right to dictate anyone how human rights should be handled.

That out of the way, let's get back to firearms. This is a reply both to you, Ripper, and to SkyFire's earlier post.
1. If you need a gun to defend yourself, it's your police force that's the problem. Perhaps, instead of telling us about your "God-given" right to have a weapon, you should be more concerned with improving the police force itself.
2. The reason why you can't buy an F-16 off the shelf is because they're only produced for the government's needs. If conventional firearms were only produced for the government's needs, the number of illegal weapons on the street should go down greatly. There will still be some (some always get through), but that's why we need a good police force.
3. Criminals with AK-47s don't justify possession of guns anyway, because guns don't offer any protection against such high-powered weapons. Since you use criminals with guns as an excuse to get a gun, will you use criminals with AK-47s as an excuse to get an AK-47? And then a bazooka?

How do you see that? The stock market has gone down because of investor fears, and a blow to certain industries through illegal processes. The government's involvement, or non-involvement isn't the issue with the lowering of the economy.
Yes, it was - the illegal processes were allowed to go on because of the lack of sufficient government involvement. Also, the changing of Federal Reserve interest rates always has a significant impact on the economy.

It'd have prompted them to go out and get jobs? Even ones they didn't think were "paying enough" or even earning what they thought they needed. Had the Liberatarians been in office, they would have had a Free Trade system in any event, which, should you follow that concept, would have done a lot to prevent that problem anyways.
Yeah, "Go get a job" always works well during a recession, which caused the person in question to lose his job in the first place. As for free trade alleviating the problem - for one thing, you have no reason (other than wishful thinking) to claim that. Secondly, since the recession was caused by an external factor (the Arab countries breaking off sales of oil because of the Yom Kippur war), free trade would not have helped anyway. If anything, it would have worsened the situation, because the economy would have no support from the government.
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Here we go again.

I'm not cattle. I dont need tending and I dont need branding. I can take care of myself, because when you get right down to it, no one else will. Im no ones property because I run me. I defend myself because unless a policeman just happens to be nearby, no one else will. If I have to choose between the bad guy being dead and me, or my family being dead, the bad guy is going to eat some lead. And defending yourself is a basic human right, unless a government takes it away from you.

The ideal government? You may actually like this. You may also recognize it.

NO government. Its not necessary because everyone respects everyone elses rights. (That means NO crime.) Everyone takes care of everyone else. No one goes without because everyone sees to it that if someone has a need it is taken care of.


Unfortunately, there will always be someone who will want to steal your bar towel, so laws are needed to get the bar towel back and execute the bar towel thief. So some kind of government is necessary to make the laws and enforce them. But I would rather have a government that doesnt put you in prison when a bad guy gets dead while doing something he had no right to do.
 

Ghost

Emperor
Originally posted by Ripper
Unfortunately, there will always be someone who will want to steal your bar towel, so laws are needed to get the bar towel back and execute the bar towel thief.
Kill a guy for stealing a bar towel !
 

TC

SubCrid
I like how you ignored pretty much every point people were questioning you about in an attempt to change the subject...
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Whoa! back up! a whole lot of those posted while I was working on my last one. let me look at them.

Oh, and the "stealing the bar towel" was shorter than listing all the offenses in existance.
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by Ghost


Ostensibily Americans or illegal Mexican imigrants?
And how do you know?, you were in SW Asia!
Prolly bad cops told you!
And be thankful of the Illegal Mexicans, the make your Tequila.

Actually I think that most of the Tequila sold here was made in Mexico. I really dont know much about it. But in the moving industry in the Peoples Republic of California, the people who would have had an oppourtunity to snag my stuff would have been the ones packing it, and would have either been Americans, legal immigrants(yeah, right) or illegal immigrants recently from Mexico.



Don´t go there, they are descendants of criminals....and there lives Paul Hogan,Koalas,Kangaroos and Filler :(
Just because theyre descended from criminals doesnt mean they havent cleaned up their act. Americans are descended from traitors. And look at them now. Wait.....
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by TC


People in the UK have the right to speak out if they disagree with this. They aren't told to 'shut up' in any way that carries legal backing...
Ill get the reference with exactly what Im talking about, but it might take a couple of days.
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by Quarto

And the US would have been a really bad example 230 years ago or so... what's your point? :p
Hey, England was running things back then!:D

More later
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Ripper
Hey, England was running things back then!:D
Err... yeah... that's my point :p. I was trying to show you why the fact that things were really bad in Poland 15 years ago does not matter in this discussion.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Yeah, good ol' Mother England. :)

Y'know, I disagree with the notion that the 'ideal' government is no government. Even if there was no crime, and people did their best to look after each other, who would provide the most basic infrastructure we all take for granted? Things which everyone needs, but no one on their own could provide? I'm thinking of things like water supply, electricity supply, roads and transport, telecommunications, etc.
 

Skyfire

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ripper

The ideal government? You may actually like this. You may also recognize it.

NO government.

*sigh* Now that's one of the best ideas I've ever heard. :rolleyes:

And I think TC did a good job of disputing the England belief you have.

Originally posted by Quarto


Criminals with AK-47s don't justify possession of guns anyway, because guns don't offer any protection against such high-powered weapons. Since you use criminals with guns as an excuse to get a gun, will you use criminals with AK-47s as an excuse to get an AK-47? And then a bazooka?

That makes absolutely no sense. If I have a handgun, and shoot him, it doesn't matter what weapon he has. While it may lower my chance of being able to hit him before he hits me, your efforts to say that it just NEGATES my handgun/shotgun is flawed.

Originally posted by Quarto


Yes, it was - the illegal processes were allowed to go on because of the lack of sufficient government involvement. Also, the changing of Federal Reserve interest rates always has a significant impact on the economy.

And please point out how the government involved itself and FIXED this corruption?

Originally posted by Quarto


Yeah, "Go get a job" always works well during a recession, which caused the person in question to lose his job in the first place. As for free trade alleviating the problem - for one thing, you have no reason (other than wishful thinking) to claim that. Secondly, since the recession was caused by an external factor (the Arab countries breaking off sales of oil because of the Yom Kippur war), free trade would not have helped anyway. If anything, it would have worsened the situation, because the economy would have no support from the government.

I didn't say it was a good excuse, but it's the exact same concept the government is using. People get jobs, put money into economy, economy is better. Um...how do you figure that? Free trade was around for quite a while, and has been used in various countries at various times in history-seemed to get them where they are today. (Ourselves included, I might add. Remember, Congress has the power-within the Constitution-to help regulate trade, that isn't against a Free Trade concept. It's regulations about amount of production that's the problem.) However, were we a free trade system, we would not have such harsh regulations of our own production of oil, which would have made us, in a fair amount of liklihood, use our own-instead of theirs.

Oh yeah...as for that being wishful thinking-just remember, this system you seem to think is better than Free Trade (which I can see benefits to, but I don't think they can outway the negatives) was just a "wishful thought" at one time.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Skyfire
That makes absolutely no sense. If I have a handgun, and shoot him, it doesn't matter what weapon he has. While it may lower my chance of being able to hit him before he hits me, your efforts to say that it just NEGATES my handgun/shotgun is flawed.
You're right, you can kill someone with a gun, no matter what weapon he's using. However, your chances are significantly lower. An AK-47 has a faster refire rate, meaning that the guy doesn't have to worry about aiming precisely before starting to shoot. It also makes a lot of noise - which would be a problem for most people, since they're likely to find the noise of a machine gun rather disconcerting.

And please point out how the government involved itself and FIXED this corruption?
Are you ignoring what I say on purpose? :p They did not get involved. They made no attempt to control the problem until it was too late. This was the free market at its finest, and it shows how insane anyone would be to put their faith in a completely free market system - such a system is about as good for the economy as anarchy is for the community as a whole.


Um...how do you figure that? Free trade was around for quite a while, and has been used in various countries at various times in history-seemed to get them where they are today.
There has never, ever, been a free trade system anywhere in the world.

(Ourselves included, I might add. Remember, Congress has the power-within the Constitution-to help regulate trade, that isn't against a Free Trade concept. It's regulations about amount of production that's the problem.)
From what I've seen on the libertarians' page, it seems that they have a problem with most government attempts to regulate business activity.

However, were we a free trade system, we would not have such harsh regulations of our own production of oil, which would have made us, in a fair amount of liklihood, use our own-instead of theirs.
How so? Would having a free market magically increase the amount of oil reserves the US has? The US will never be self-reliant when it comes to oil, because its reserves are not enough to cover its needs.

Oh yeah...as for that being wishful thinking-just remember, this system you seem to think is better than Free Trade (which I can see benefits to, but I don't think they can outway the negatives) was just a "wishful thought" at one time.
Really? Funny, I was pretty sure that mixed market/controlled economic systems have dominated the globe since the dawn of time :p. That's all I'm saying, you know - that some degree of control is always needed, in order to stabilise the economy. Free trade and a completely free market economy system are a dangerous utopia, like communism at the other end of the spectrum.
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by Wedge009
who would provide the most basic infrastructure we all take for granted? Things which everyone needs, but no one on their own could provide? I'm thinking of things like water supply, electricity supply, roads and transport, telecommunications, etc.
Everyone would work together to provide them.

Kumbaya...
 

Ripper

Peace Through Superior Firepower
Originally posted by Skyfire


And I think TC did a good job of disputing the England belief you have.
Really? You think things were better here when we were a colony?

And i dont mean then compared to now, I mean 1770 compared to 1780.
 
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