What was Confed thinking? Are they a bunch of Morons? A What If..? thread!

[t.c.cgi]

Lets say we take Arena as Canon.

Using the word canon in a hypothetical way can be a very dangerous thing. It is canon, end of story.

What does it tell us then? It tells us that Broadswords can eventually have afterburners. That Rapier II's and Arrows and Broadswords can fight in the Nephilim-era. That eventually pretty much every ship can be jump capable. Meson Blaster remains a late-era gun. That after Ion cannons made the laser pretty much obsolete on the Midway, there are still people using lasers effectively. Afterburner velocity goes down as late modifications are added to spaceframes. Mines are VERY relevant. Late model tractor beams can be used offensively. The dragon STILL has the most shields (gyah!). Am I missing anything?

Are you trying to use an element of Arena to either win the argument or discredit Arena? We see afterburners on bombers before Arena you know.

The Longbow, Avenger, Shrike, and Devastator all have afterburners. The Crossbow and Broadsword are the only ones that do not. Whatever the hiccup was has been resolved by WC3 and beyond.

The proliferation of jump drives starts in WC2 with the Morningstar. The big deal was that it took a bigger boat, like a bomber, to carry the fuel needed - fuel that was likely displacing the space required for afterburner fuel. The Morningstar appears to have no problem fitting a jump drive and afterburners into a tight little frame. Yet the Morningstar is also supposed to be a super fighter - expensive and not too common. This happens again with the Excalibur and Dragon. Yet in Privateer - circa between WC3 & 4 IIRC - you can put a jump drive on everything and it's not that expensive, but does still burn fuel. Clearly the size, power requirements, and cost of jump drives continue to decline until they're as common as ejector seats and acceleration dampeners.

As for a decided lack of center-line guns? Gun convergence. It's a cheap answer, yes, but ITTS/gun convergence make extreme spacing a non-issue. And the incredible improvement in convergence and ITTS in WC3 over WC2 shows that whatever was preventing center-line armament (propeller blades! oh wait) wasn't being ignored, and a work-around solution has been created.

Why does everyone still use Lasers hundreds of years after the Hornet in WC1? Why does anyone still use bolt action rifles? It's a mere questions of the right tool for the job, and clearly the fact that they all co-exist so much later means that the manufacturer's idea of "better" doesn't make the older weapon obsolete.

Oh, and the Dragons aren't "main line" fighters. They're the black helicopters, remember? Of course they're still going to be insanely powerful.

 

[gavinfoxx]

Using the word canon in a hypothetical way can be a very dangerous thing. It is canon, end of story.



Are you trying to use an element of Arena to either win the argument or discredit Arena? We see afterburners on bombers before Arena you know.

The Longbow, Avenger, Shrike, and Devastator all have afterburners. The Crossbow and Broadsword are the only ones that do not. Whatever the hiccup was has been resolved by WC3 and beyond.

The proliferation of jump drives starts in WC2 with the Morningstar. The big deal was that it took a bigger boat, like a bomber, to carry the fuel needed - fuel that was likely displacing the space required for afterburner fuel. The Morningstar appears to have no problem fitting a jump drive and afterburners into a tight little frame. Yet the Morningstar is also supposed to be a super fighter - expensive and not too common. This happens again with the Excalibur and Dragon. Yet in Privateer - circa between WC3 & 4 IIRC - you can put a jump drive on everything and it's not that expensive, but does still burn fuel. Clearly the size, power requirements, and cost of jump drives continue to decline until they're as common as ejector seats and acceleration dampeners.

As for a decided lack of center-line guns? Gun convergence. It's a cheap answer, yes, but ITTS/gun convergence make extreme spacing a non-issue. And the incredible improvement in convergence and ITTS in WC3 over WC2 shows that whatever was preventing center-line armament (propeller blades! oh wait) wasn't being ignored, and a work-around solution has been created.

Why does everyone still use Lasers hundreds of years after the Hornet in WC1? Why does anyone still use bolt action rifles? It's a mere questions of the right tool for the job, and clearly the fact that they all co-exist so much later means that the manufacturer's idea of "better" doesn't make the older weapon obsolete.

Oh, and the Dragons aren't "main line" fighters. They're the black helicopters, remember? Of course they're still going to be insanely powerful.

As far as the info of Arena, I was just trying to figure out the ramifications of what it would mean, that's all. I'm not sure how it impacts the arguments! And the longbow was the *first* true bomber to have afterburners, I believe, which is what matters for bomber survival. What I was saying with the Morningstar is that putting into production the Morningstar would probably be cheaper then developing AND putting into production the Thunderbolt, especially as the technology matures! Even in Prophecy, apparently the automatic gun gymbals weren't all that common, and one thing I discovered after playing UE and futzing around with the asteroid fighter -- is that you don't actually need precisely centerline guns as much as you need guns relatively CLOSE to the centerline... and all the guns grouped together at one part of the ship. That, combined with guns with a decent refire rate, and relatively low power draw. lets you much better correct your aim. To me, the biggest problem with people using normal lasers is the idea that the pulse laser -- the photon cannon -- is better, virtually maintenance free, and almost as cheap! Still, I don't think it is worth it to develop so many superfighters if you don't intend to USE them. After the excalibur as a testbed for technologies (like cloak), and the mainstream bearcat, I don't think it was really worth it to create even more superfighter after superfighter. What I am trying to say is that, throughout the series, you only really need four production and one experimental -- the four production would be rapier II, morningstar, bearcat, and wraith, and the excalibur would be the stepping stone to the bearcat. No reason to develop the vampire, the dragon, the panther, or whatever else they might have tried!

 

[gavinfoxx]

What I think would REALLY be important to know would be, "on the average multirole fighter of the day (rapier II, hellcat, tigershark, as the case may be), with the guns not set to fire all at once, with two of the cannons, after the gun capacitors are empty, what is the damage per second of the relevent guns, if all shots hit, and the firing trigger stays pushed down?"

That would be interesting to know!

 

[t.c.cgi]

What I was saying with the Morningstar is that putting into production the Morningstar would probably be cheaper then developing AND putting into production the Thunderbolt, especially as the technology matures!

We have established from the WC3 Warbirds poster and S*S that there are indeed multiple manufacturers. It can be assumed that these manufacturers also have multiple plants and factories - perhaps even dozens.

Throw on to this the fact that we're in a total war environment and constantly hanging on by the skin of our teeth. A sudden drop in total fighter production would be a very, very bad thing, right?

Let's say the Thuds started production only a year or two ago, but are at maximum output - say 300 a month just for a number. The Morningstar has just been put on a mass order... with a different manufacturer. They can start production immediately at 10 a month, increasing by ten each month, until they hit a total of 150 a month 1.5 years in to production. That's 310 heavy fighters a month immediately and 450 a month 15 months later.

That's okay, but the Thud is a piece of shit I guess, right? It's holding the line but it's not exactly storming Kilrah. Well, let's have the guys making the Thud make the Morningstar instead. They say... okay, but it's going to take us a month to retool and train, and after that we can only 10 a month for three months as the other guys show us how to build the damn things. Then we can ramp up and match the other guy's numbers - they're twice as complex as a Thud due to their jump drive, so they can only make half as many when fully ramped up.

Quick math. That's... 10 heavy fighters total for the first two months, with an end potential of 300 in 18 months. I hope there's no high attrition battles in that time span like Deneb or the Battle of Terra. Oops!

TL;DR: Producing the shit planes parallel with the high-tech planes ensures the supply will always meet or exceed the attrition. It worked in WW2.

Even in Prophecy, apparently the automatic gun gymbals weren't all that common, and one thing I discovered after playing UE and futzing around with the asteroid fighter -- is that you don't actually need precisely centerline guns as much as you need guns relatively CLOSE to the centerline... and all the guns grouped together at one part of the ship. That, combined with guns with a decent refire rate, and relatively low power draw. lets you much better correct your aim.

Honestly, the only bird I had any problems with was the Saber. WC2's ultra finicky ITTS drove me nuts.

To me, the biggest problem with people using normal lasers is the idea that the pulse laser -- the photon cannon -- is better, virtually maintenance free, and almost as cheap!

Almost as cheap. There is very little information about the fictional technical workings of the Wing Commander universe. For all we know photon cannons are incompatible with a certain manufacturer's widget, or causes a feedback loop in flux capacitors. The fact that lasers are still around suggests that photons aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Still, I don't think it is worth it to develop so many superfighters if you don't intend to USE them. After the excalibur as a testbed for technologies (like cloak), and the mainstream bearcat, I don't think it was really worth it to create even more superfighter after superfighter. What I am trying to say is that, throughout the series, you only really need four production and one experimental -- the four production would be rapier II, morningstar, bearcat, and wraith, and the excalibur would be the stepping stone to the bearcat.

Excalibur
Still a mass-produced front-line fighter as of WC:SO, in use by many medium and heavy squadrons. Oh, and the cloak wasn't at all part of the design, nor was it a "testbed" for one. That was just for the Kilrah run, and from the briefing it doesn't sound at all reliable.

Morningstar
Who says this fighter isn't in service? Being unable to positively confirm a prototype entered mass production doesn't mean it was canceled.

Bearcat
See Morningstar

Dragon
Again, this is the official black helicopter of Wing Commander. It was never intended for front-line mass production ever. It was meant to be a small production capship-in-a-can for black ops, and there are already several squadrons of them in service by the beginning of WC4 by all indications.

No reason to develop the vampire, the dragon, the panther, or whatever else they might have tried!

So... continuing to develop new fighter technologies in peace time... is bad? Seriously? Do I need to say what that sounds like?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Here's the gun text we've been talking about on IRC; work in progress. More comments later.

 

[gavinfoxx]

So, to help figure out how valid my info is, I decided to do a DPS chart. All info is from here: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/gunchart.htm (which I JUST found, argh!), and is presumed valid. Of course, this DPS chart is for fighter's guns, doesn't take into account range, speed of projectile, capacitor level, etc. It's just "if you had infinite capacitors and were shooting at something REALLY BIG, this is what your damage per second would be like". It's surprising, to say the least. Armada's numbers are craaazzyyy, that dust cannon is ALSO crazy! Also, sorry in advance about the formatting!

gun..........................damage..........refire rate............dps
example1................1.....................0.5.......................2
example2................0.5.................2..........................0.25

wc2laser.................1.8.................0.25.....................7.2
wc2mass.................4.5................0.3.......................15
wc2particle..............4.3................0.4.......................10.75
wc2neutron.............3...................0.35......................8.57

armaionicpul............3.3................0.1........................33
armalas...................1.3................0.13......................10.4
armamass................2...................0.15.....................13.33
armaneutron............1.8................0.13.....................13.53
armaphoton.............3.7................0.17.....................22.42
armaplasmabolt........3.7...............0.13.....................29.6
armareaper..............4....................0.18.....................22.86
armatach..................2.5.................0.15.....................16.67

privionic.....................5.4................0.7.......................7.71
privlas........................1.8................0.3.......................6
privmass...................2.6.................0.35......................7.43
privmeson................3.2.................0.4........................8
privneut...................6.2................0.65......................9.54
privpart...................4.3................0.5........................8.6
privplas...................7.2.................0.72......................10
privtach...................3.7...............0.4........................9.25

wc3ion.......................3...................0.35....................8.57
wc3laser..................1.8................0.25....................7.2
wc3mass..................4.5................0.3......................15
wc3meson1.............3.5................0.4.......................8.75
wc3meson2.............2.8................0.4.......................7
wc3meson3.............1.8...............0.4.......................4.5
wc3neutron..............4...................0.45......................8.89
wc3particle..............4.3...............0.4.......................10.75
wc3photon..............3.2...............0.45.......................7.11
wc3plasma..............6.7................0.5.......................13.4
wc3reaper................3.5...............0.3........................11.67
wc3tach....................7..................0.35.......................20

wc4heavion...............5.................0.35...................14.29
wc4heavmass............6.................0.45...................13.33
wc4heavphoton.........7.4..............0.45...................16.44
wc4ion......................3..................0.35....................8.57
wc4laser...................1.8...............0.25....................7.2
wc4lighttach..............5..................0.35...................14.29
wc4mass...................4.5................0.3....................15
wc4part......................4.3................0.4....................10.75
wc4phot.....................3.2...............0.45....................7.11
wc4plas......................6.7................0.5.....................13.4
wc4tach......................7...................0.35...................20

wcpion......................3.....................0.35....................8.57
wcplaser...................1.8..................0.25....................7.2
wcpmass....................3.5..................0.3.....................11.67
wcppart......................4.2..................0.4.....................10.5
wcpplasma1................46.................1.6......................28.75
wcpplasma2.................60..................1.6.....................37.5
wcpstormfire2..............2.1..................0.1.....................21
wcptach......................7......................0.45..................15.56

socloud.......................10....................0.45..................22.22
sochainion...................2.......................0.1...................20
sodust.......................4........................0.05.................80
soplasma....................60....................2.......................30
sopulsepart.................3.....................0.1......................30

 

[t.c.cgi]

It's surprising, to say the least. Armada's numbers are craaazzyyy, that dust cannon is ALSO crazy!

Mmmmm... dust cannon. Melting things with that was bonkers fun.

 

[gavinfoxx]

Mmmmm... dust cannon. Melting things with that was bonkers fun.

Yea I was also surprised at how high the DPS for mass driver consistently was! it does seem to be more of an anti-capship or anti-bomber weapon than an anti fighter weapon in all but the "fast velocity" versions, which seem to appear at prophecy. At that point, it stops sucking for anti fighter duty (you can actually hit!). Though what I would really like to know is, "what are the actual numbers in the data files for this stuff?" ... I am sure the ones in the manuals aren't always equal to the game!! "Hey guys! You know those mass drivers that only Crazy Joe could hit a light fighter with at their maximum range?" "Yea what about them?" "Well there has been a major breakthrough in in the manufacture of the magnetic coils, with these new ones, which we can pop into pretty much any existing gun, the exit velocity will increase by three times!" "Woah, so you mean we will actually be able to hit with them? Cool!"

....fly the Unknown Enemy ferret. It's MAD. Absolutely MAD.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Here's the gun text we've been talking about on IRC; work in progress. More comments later.

I know you wrote it was a work in progress but just to be sure that nothing gets overlooked: the Plasma Bolt from WCA's Jrathek is missing if I'm not mistaken.

 

[gavinfoxx]

I missed Armada's particle gun:

Particle Cannon 2.3 cm / .13 / 17.69

It does seem that, outside of privateer and armada, the particle gun keeps the most consistency throughout all the games. Which is obvious, since WC2, 3, and 4 used the exact same stats. Still, it is good that it maintains a baseline upon which other guns can be compared. I guess the guns that got worse then they used to be compared to the particle gun can be thought of as variants and experiments and refinements that didn't always work? Or maybe different manufacturers were used at different eras, and there was only ONE manufacturer (or licensed design?) of the particle gun throughout this entire time?