What happened to the Black Lance?

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Originally posted by Dragon
Well, the US put the japoneses on "security camps" during WW II, they were also following orders, GB deliberated bomb Hanburg to the ground and targeted that city civilian population just to make a example out of it...
The military personal is train to FOLLOW orders without question, because IF they dont, its court marcial for then for insuburdination.
Now the Black Lance was, I belive, a paramilitary organization, they JOIN in, they are responsible for their actions individualy and colective.
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I know several WWII vets that were on some of those bombers, they will tell you that they did not have the accurate targeting like today, the bombs simply dropped, and where they went was out of their control. There were many missions flown with bombers that had legitimate targets (military targets), but with 1940s technology, they did not have laser guided bombs, high resolution maps and accurate intelligence. If you recall, England suffered quite a bit of "indiscriminate" bombing. Fortunate for England, the Nazis never fully deployed those V-rockets. Although the first few caused many deaths and great damage to cities. The US did not want to become involved in WWII, that is until the Japaneese decided to sneak attack Pearl Harbor. The US got thrown into the war, it wasnt a choice. Considering that Washington DID in fact have warning about a potential Japaneese attack, they ignored it.

Soldiers do have to follow orders, no question. But if the orders are to take an entire population of millions of people to misslead them into thinking they will be free, only to be gassed and burned to death, is pure EVIL. To say that something like that is not evil, is like saying going to church and praying is unholy. If there were just one survivor of those camps here in this chat forum, you would have one heck of an argument for shure!

RFB
 
Originally posted by Cadfael Sorry but this is exact the same propaganda shit wich the us government spreads throughout the world.
Japan was already on his knees they had no chance to win this war and the us navy was close to an invasion on japan homeland. Droping an atomic bomb on civilians is a crime!
Why didn't they drop it on a japan military base or something like that.
This is a crime against humanity and not something you should be proud of. They just wanted to test their new weapon.
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Erm, no, the US was prepared for an amphibious invasion of Japan... but it'd have taken far more lives (including *American* lives) than dropping the a-bomb did.

Unlike Wing Commander, weapons aren't tested in combat in real-life... the A-bomb was tested in the US before it was deployed.
 
YOU ARE A LIAR, GOOD SIR! THE CONCEPT OF RADIATION IS AN EVIL AMERICAN LIE DESIGNED TO PARDON THE GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by Quarto

But if you really want to see his incompetency for yourself, study WWII a bit. Why didn't he bomb the hell out of Taiwan immediately after hearing of Pearl Harbour? His stupidity that day cost the Phillipines dearly. Why didn't he act, when he heard of a Japanese naval landing force being gathered in Rabaul? He had been told by Intel where they were probably going, but decided that he knows better. His stupidity that day resulted in one of the toughest campaigns of the Pacific - Kokoda Trail. And while on that topic, he didn't do much to help American-Australian relations either. And I can give you more examples, if you like :).
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True, true...but that sort of stuff has been beaten to death over the years, and I don't think even MacArther deserves it...anyway, he DID take back the Phillipines, so that's gotta count for something.


Originally posted by Cadfael
Sorry but this is exact the same propaganda shit wich the us government spreads throughout the world.
Japan was already on his knees they had no chance to win this war and the us navy was close to an invasion on japan homeland. Droping an atomic bomb on civilians is a crime!
Why didn't they drop it on a japan military base or something like that.
This is a crime against humanity and not something you should be proud of. They just wanted to test their new weapon.
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True, the US could have gone ahead with the invasion...but it would have been much more destructive and probably killed a good deal of Americans as everyone already said already. :)Remember Omaha Beach?
And we cannot forget that the Japanese were totally dedicated to their military rulers and the Emperor (who may or may not have had any real power), and were totally dedicated and willing to give their lives. Gladly! Hell, whole Japanese families threw themselves off ciffs rather than be captured, and wives and children commited suicide so the men could fly kamakaze. So, in that case, I supposed it may have been justified. Note I say MAY. It's like waht they say: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That's kind of scary, actually, because it parallels Tolwyn, Hitler, and all the other Rightous Guardians. It says that the ends justify the means. Sure, many lives amy have been saved, but what about those who wern't? What about Telamon, and Hiroshima, and all the others. It's like "We must destroy this village in order to save it", or "We shall save your soul by sending it to Heaven"...or ramming your wingmans so they don't die. :)
But I digress. The point here is that there are many points, and no right answer. People would undoubtebly die either way, and I have to agree with Cadfael: It would have been better to drop the bomb on a military base, but I supposed there weren't any military bases left.
(It's interesting to note that, in his address to the nation following the dropping of the bomb, the President reported Hiroshima as "a military base").
Cadfael also says that the US wanted to test out their new "toy", and it is true, there were probably more than a few in high places who wanted to basically "drop the bomb and see what happens" - but that wasn't nessesarily because they were coldhearted bastards with no regard for human life. It's because they didn't know what it COULD do.

(On a related note, Francoiu Chau, better known as Vagabond, is in the movie Hiroshima. I've never seen it, but you might want to search for it if the subject interests you)
 
At least it doesn't matter...they dropped it on a Civilian town....to brake the Japanese will. And to win the war without more losses on the site of the Americans.
It was not good and we still see what it brings...I only ask myself what do the Americans have for a right to make such huge areas unusable for 1000 years? I mean everything is better than making such a huge place unlivable and kill thousends of innocent people. But okay it has happened and cannot be changed. But what if it had happened in the USA? Maybe if something like that happened in the USA? Would that change their mind? I mean in the last weeks I read the US wan to develop one more bomb...don't we have enough atomic weapons to make earth explode if a war comes? Nobody develops new things in that area...but whom does? Did they learn nothing???Seems not so....
 
Do you think the Japanese would at all have been humanitarian to US citizens if the war had gone the other way? Can you ignore the atrocities Japan committed in Asia during their campaign of conquest? You make it sound like not only were they benevolant in their control, but that they had no control over the events that happened. They bombed Pearl Harbor. If that hadnt happened, the US would not have been in the war until too late possibly. The United States was in full right to do what ever it took to end the war with minimal US casulties up to inhumane methods that no one can be excused for. The US treated their prisoners of war like prisoners, but they werent horribly tortured and experimented on. It was a fight for survival and if it meant wiping one city of the face of the earth then so be it. It wasnt enough. It took TWO bombs on civilian targets to make the Japanese surrender. If they had been military targets would they have surrendered? Doubtful. The war needed to be ended and fast before many more lives were lost.
 
First of all, the French are ALWAYS testing nuclear weapons. International laws had to be created a few years ago to force them to conduct underground tests only becuase they were doing dangerous amounts of testing. India just developed the bomb. It isnt as sophisticated as the US's but they are still working on it. The only reason Russia isnt is because they cant afford to do it anymore. And if they are, its coming along slowly with poor results. The US is by far not the only country developing nuclear weapons.
 
I mean developing new weapons which still don't exist today..India etc. develpo the bomb the US had since long time.:)
 
Yeah...but don't ask me how long still.
Other countries will overtake the USA in the next years...take for ex. Japan...Where we are at the theme again. Their society is most ready for the future...we are all not.
 
Thought never occured to me to ask:)

I dont know about that though. It seemed like they would have after the 80's and we're still tops. What it comes down to is they still dont have the vast resources the US does or are they ever likely too, and the very nature of how the US works keeps it innovative and productive.

[Edited by Supdon3 on 04-22-2001 at 02:52]
 
But that is it...the development of the knowledge society...knowledge is future. And the Japanese have it. We are all at the industrial society where I've to say the Germans especially. We haven't any interest in learning. The trade of the future will happen with knowledge.
The US keep on coming...we are at the beginning. But even the resources which the Japanese don't have, let them discover that society...
 
My my...

Never before in my life have I seen such a collection of mad ravings from such a large group of experts on nothing, who speak of everything.
 
Japanesse work ethics are definitly different than American work ethics. Especially when everyone else follows the sterotype that Americans do everything half assed. There was a delightful song about it on the Simpsons. But just like not all Germans are Nazi's, not all Austrailians keep kangaroos as pets and not all French people are cheese eating, wine drinking chain smokers who dont shower, not all Americans just take the easiest way out. Not only are my friends working their asses off to get the best college education they can, but i have uncles who are always going back to school to learn new trades, new computer technologies. People across the US are constantly working harder inventing new technologies, learning new techniques and working to be the best at what they are. Not everyone is, my neighbors are the epitome of white trash, they drink constantly, have little to no education at even a high school level and are physically abusive to each other. Yet i know even more people that are role models. That may be the environment im exposed to but that only proves they are out there.
 
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