What actually happened at K'Tithrak Mang?

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Iceman survives - he's one of the pilots who shows up at the 'Claw's wreckage to round everyone up in the Ultimate Strategy Guide's story. He's killed several months later, at B'Shriss, while flying off an unknown carrier (with Hawk!)

This is interesting, because it implies that Blair's court martial and transfer to ISS on Caernarvon must have taken at least place several months after the Claw's loss as well. After all, Hawk states in Prophecy that Blair was the one that brought Iceman's pod in, after the Cats had cut him up, and I doubt that Blair could have come all the way from Caernarvon to B'Shriss to do that!

Which in turn implies that Iceman probably died before Ghorar Khar turned, since before that Khasra is telling Thrakhath that Blair will never fly a fighter again...

Or am I reading way too much into a simple statement by Hawk?
 

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
The Tiger's Claw and her escorts fought their way across the sector as part of an ordinary naval campaign... the Concordia was using the Enigma Sector black hole to jump in "behind enemy lines" (from the briefing) to attack the base.

But did the Claw KNOW where the starbase was? (I mean within the system). She certainly seemed to, but in WC2 they didn't seem to know exactly where it was--hence the need for the mission where you have to tail Kilrathi ships to find the main Kilrathi base. I'm wondering if the Cats relocated the base sometime in the ten years, or if it naturally drifts or moves over time and Confed lost their fix.


The Austin was a "Gettysburg-class Cruiser", whose capacities are largely unknown.

It kind of irritates me how Confed follows the modern naval convention of naming a class after the first ship of the type, but then goes and violates it by having prominent ships of a different class share the name. The TCS Gettysburg was a Waterloo class, not a Gettysburg class. The (big) TCS Concordia was a Confederation class, not a Concordia Class. Etc. Ah well.

There were some other damning facts:

* Intel recovered the Tiger's Claw's black box which confirmed that the attacking fighters came from the area Blair was ordered to patrol.

Interesting, because in the animation they decloak and immediately fire their missiles. How does the Claw's black box track what way they approached from?

* Blair was due back at the Tiger's Claw *before* it was destroyed. His patrol was delayed because he stopped to search for the flights of Strakha he spotted.

* No other patrols sighted Kilrathi fighters. The Tiger' Claw had every available fighter in space in an attempt to cover all approaches as she attacked the K'Tithrak Mang.

Weren't other pilots due back early? No one saw the fighters decloak?

Thanks for all the information!
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
But did the Claw KNOW where the starbase was? (I mean within the system). She certainly seemed to, but in WC2 they didn't seem to know exactly where it was--hence the need for the mission where you have to tail Kilrathi ships to find the main Kilrathi base. I'm wondering if the Cats relocated the base sometime in the ten years, or if it naturally drifts or moves over time and Confed lost their fix.

The Concordia was working from a different jump point, in enemy territory, which wasn't mapped. They were basically feeling their way around the system in order to locate the starbase - it's not like they knew where every planet was, along with everything around it, like it's Star Trek. Besides, unless you WANT everyone in the system to know exactly where you are by sending out a translight scan, it's safer to scout with fighters or something else.

It kind of irritates me how Confed follows the modern naval convention of naming a class after the first ship of the type, but then goes and violates it by having prominent ships of a different class share the name. The TCS Gettysburg was a Waterloo class, not a Gettysburg class. The (big) TCS Concordia was a Confederation class, not a Concordia Class. Etc. Ah well.

The USS Enterprise (CV-65) is the first and only ship of her own class, but her predecessor (CV-6) was the sixth carrier of the Yorktown class. Just because the TCS Gettysburg we see is another class of ship doesn't mean that the class name is messed up; it means merely that the previous ship of that class is retired or destroyed. The TCS Concordia we flew off of as Blair is the third Concordia we know of in the Kilrathi War, as her predecessor was decomissioned or destroyed sometime before the Confederation-class successor left drydock.

Interesting, because in the animation they decloak and immediately fire their missiles. How does the Claw's black box track what way they approached from?

Probably the same way the fighter's black box does - the 'radar' is three-dimensional, and it showed fighters coming in from Blair's vector, dropping torpedoes or missiles just before the Claw itself blew. They had the vector, and based on the plans that were logged somewhere would have come from the quadrant Blair was assigned to on his flight patrol.

Weren't other pilots due back early? No one saw the fighters decloak?

As I recall, some of the fighters according to the WC1&2 Ultimate Strategy Guide had come back in time to see the Claw blow. Whoever had come back early was probably on deck when the ship was destroyed, and nobody was landing at the time as far as we know.
 

Mekt-Hakkikt

Mpanty's bane
But did the Claw KNOW where the starbase was? (I mean within the system). She certainly seemed to, but in WC2 they didn't seem to know exactly where it was--hence the need for the mission where you have to tail Kilrathi ships to find the main Kilrathi base. I'm wondering if the Cats relocated the base sometime in the ten years, or if it naturally drifts or moves over time and Confed lost their fix.

Maybe the knowledge about the location of K'tithrak Mang was destroyed along with the Tiger's Claw. Though the surviving fighters should have maybe some data...
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Also, when was that handwritten note in KS dated? I dont have KS...

It's not dated, it's just in the WC2 section. The note references Blair's exile (and the events of Freedom Flight.)

Actually Fleet Action says he left on a two week leave the day before the Tiger's Claw was destroyed. Since at the end of Freedom Flight the Tiger's Claw is still intact logically they have to be two different leaves.

I believe these are the same leaves - he just doesn't learn that the Tiger's Claw has been destroyed until after he gets back from Ghorah Khar (it wasn't common knowledge - the loss was kept from the public for almost a year.) Hunter's visit to Earth is 'several months' after Bossman's death, which pushes it right up (if not past) the destruction of the Tiger's Claw...

Oh, and I totally missed the date earlier, LOAF.... but not being familiar with our own timeline, let alone WC's, does that exclude a death occurring during the 10 intervening years?

Yeah, Hunter dies a little over a year after the end of Wing Commander 2. It's probably just a matter of Blair thinking he had died (by Wing Commander II.) There's actually a scene that's parodying this exact discussion in Fleet Action (the book where Hunter dies): Hunter meets another Tiger's Claw pilot and it turns out both thought that the other had died.

This is interesting, because it implies that Blair's court martial and transfer to ISS on Caernarvon must have taken at least place several months after the Claw's loss as well. After all, Hawk states in Prophecy that Blair was the one that brought Iceman's pod in, after the Cats had cut him up, and I doubt that Blair could have come all the way from Caernarvon to B'Shriss to do that!

Which in turn implies that Iceman probably died before Ghorar Khar turned, since before that Khasra is telling Thrakhath that Blair will never fly a fighter again...

Or am I reading way too much into a simple statement by Hawk?

I think you're onto something - I believe we can prove that Blair was still on the Austin when Iceman was killed... which is something we hadn't thought about before.

We can work out roughly when Iceman died, from information given to us in a few places. As a baseline, remember that the Tiger's Claw was destroyed three months (97 days) after Firekka. Iceman took leave just after Firekka, where he met (and knocked up) Lance's mom. He found out she was pregnant three months later and took an emergency one-week leave to marry her. This would have been pretty much exactly when the Tiger's Claw was destroyed - which happened three months and one week (97 days) after Firekka. Giving Iceman time between Firekka and when he left on his first leave plus time for the leave itself, his marriage must have happened shortly *after* the Tiger's Claw went down (we know he was present that day). Then we know he was killed in action six weeks after he was married - so at least seven weeks after the 'Claw was destroyed (six weeks plus his week long emergency leave).

As for Blair... we know that he was served with court martial papers the day after the Tiger's Claw was destroyed (2656.056) - but the Kilrathi Saga manual says that the actual court martial wasn't scheduled until later in the year (2656.329). The Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide says that he was on the Austin when he was convicted - which means he was there for Iceman's death. You can imagine the scenario, with Blair defying his house arrest order to go searching for his friend's body.

Iceman certainly died before Ghorah Khar, though, since Thrakhath withdrew six weeks after Blair's conviction (it would have been early 2656.)

But did the Claw KNOW where the starbase was? (I mean within the system). She certainly seemed to, but in WC2 they didn't seem to know exactly where it was--hence the need for the mission where you have to tail Kilrathi ships to find the main Kilrathi base. I'm wondering if the Cats relocated the base sometime in the ten years, or if it naturally drifts or moves over time and Confed lost their fix.

You may be confusing the final missions of Wing Commander I and II... in the former's Venice series you spend time searching for the exact location of the base, but in Wing Commander II you just track a Ralatha through a new jump point (it's the difference between fighting to serieses of islands in the Pacific and simply covertly sailing an aircraft carrier within range of bombing Tokyo.) Concordia does know where the station is - the first missions in K'tithrak Mang are Angel dispatching patrols and strikes to cover the approach.

Interesting, because in the animation they decloak and immediately fire their missiles. How does the Claw's black box track what way they approached from?

The guide says that the actual battle was longer (it also involved more Strakha) - we only see the final hits in the intro.
 

Iceman16

Vice Admiral
I was just readingthe part about the Claw's destruction in the WC1 & 2 Ultimate Guide, apparently the battle took a bit less than the time it took Blair to get from his position (about 110,000 km from the Claw) to the Claw at full afterburner, so it was still a pretty short battle.

also, I read the mission profile for the second WC2 mission (the first of the Save the Concordia ones, page 181), it says "The Concordia hit one (Sartha) with her phase-transit cannon, then Shadow and I had an easy job taking care of the last Sartha with our guns." So was it just a lucky shot or a delibrate targeting?
 

Ijuin

Admiral
I think that if the Concordia kills a fighter with the AMG's, it will still say "Phase-Transit Cannon" in the debriefing.
 

Ricochet

Spaceman
After all, Hawk states in Prophecy that Blair was the one that brought Iceman's pod in, after the Cats had cut him up, and I doubt that Blair could have come all the way from Caernarvon to B'Shriss to do that!

This makes me wonder:
Hawk had served with iceman before he got killed(the iceman), but blair was the one to recover the pod. BUT hawk seems to meet Blair for the first time during the WC4, when he boards the intrepid. He just says that he heard of him and panther. Does this mean that they served on the same ship for a whil before intrepid, but never actually met?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I was just readingthe part about the Claw's destruction in the WC1 & 2 Ultimate Guide, apparently the battle took a bit less than the time it took Blair to get from his position (about 110,000 km from the Claw) to the Claw at full afterburner, so it was still a pretty short battle.

You hear the 'Claw's distress calls in the book, so you get a good idea of how the battle went down... or at least that it was more than we saw in Wing Commander II's introduction.

also, I read the mission profile for the second WC2 mission (the first of the Save the Concordia ones, page 181), it says "The Concordia hit one (Sartha) with her phase-transit cannon, then Shadow and I had an easy job taking care of the last Sartha with our guns." So was it just a lucky shot or a delibrate targeting?

It's possible that it was intentional - the description for the Phase Transit Cannon simply says that it's capable of destroying any *ship*... we're never told that it *can't* be used for hitting fighters.

I think that if the Concordia kills a fighter with the AMG's, it will still say "Phase-Transit Cannon" in the debriefing.

I don't think briefings report the Concordia's kills - I ran a quick search through the WC2 script and didn't find any instances of 'phase transit'.

Hawk had served with iceman before he got killed(the iceman), but blair was the one to recover the pod. BUT hawk seems to meet Blair for the first time during the WC4, when he boards the intrepid. He just says that he heard of him and panther. Does this mean that they served on the same ship for a whil before intrepid, but never actually met?

Yes, *if* Iceman was flying off the Austin (which we don't know for sure). Hawk's story begins on the Tiger's Claw, where he was an enlisted comm tech. After his homeworld was destroyed he struck up a friendship with Iceman, who recommended him for Officer Candidacy School. He graduated and flew his first mission with Iceman wherever Iceman was stationed after the disaster.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Hunter dies while helping to uncover the Kilrathi carrier fleet which is poised to violate their fake armistice and destroy Earth once and for all in Fleet action.

He takes a whole load of missiles up his keester.

He dies protecting Paladin. He puts his Ferret in a position to intercept the Kilrathi fighters that have been launched from a pair of cruisers chasing down the two of them.

6 of the new kilrathi IFF slam across the rear of his ferret in the process.

This was a moment that always made me mad and wanting to get back into the cockpit and fry some furballs. Hunter really came to life for me through FF and FA. His relationship with Kirha is something that shows us a lot about the kilrathi outside of the palace and is a great story as well.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Okay. I am the black box recorder.
I do detect enemy fighters approaching.
1)am I (the recorder) so useless that I can't record enemy appearance from nowhere?
2)if the bombers did decloak far enough, so that their invis capability was not detected, why don't we hang up someone who was supposed to monitor scanners all the time?

I mean:
If the enemy comes cloaked and fires at closest distance - why didn't recorder of Claw record it?
If enemy comes uncloaked - how in the hell Blair's exec didn't notice them coming?
 

Nomad Terror

Rear Admiral
I'm sure they noticed them and fought back with what limited anti-fighter defense they had, but the ship was ultimately destroyed through lack of CAP.
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
OK, sorry, but I have a question that goes along with this topic: When Blair is on patrol and spots the stealth fighters, why does he not have a wingman? It seems rather unusual that they'd send a lone fighter out to patrol unknown space.
 

mustanger

Rear Admiral
OK, sorry, but I have a question that goes along with this topic: When Blair is on patrol and spots the stealth fighters, why does he not have a wingman? It seems rather unusual that they'd send a lone fighter out to patrol unknown space.

I don't know that it is that unusual for Wing Commander (particularly the Tiger's Claw). You may remember that in Freedom Flight, Hunter is sent on a lone patrol when they are looking for the Ras'nikrah.

I think they do single fighter patrols for when they need to defend a large perimeter.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Okay. I am the black box recorder.
I do detect enemy fighters approaching.
1)am I (the recorder) so useless that I can't record enemy appearance from nowhere?
2)if the bombers did decloak far enough, so that their invis capability was not detected, why don't we hang up someone who was supposed to monitor scanners all the time?

The Strakha couldn't maintain a permanent cloak - they had to decloak frequently, which is how Blair encountered them in the first place... it would have/must have been enough for the Tiger's Claw to record a trajectory when they initially attacked.

As for the person who was supposed to monitor scanners -- that was *Blair*. His job was watching the area of space the fighters came from - and, more to the point, he actually located them and didn't report anything! Even if he wasn't a traitor he was still fairly negligent...

I'm sure they noticed them and fought back with what limited anti-fighter defense they had, but the ship was ultimately destroyed through lack of CAP.

I think that gives the wrong impression - in all likelyhood there were standard CAP wings... but they didn't survive the surprise attack.

OK, sorry, but I have a question that goes along with this topic: When Blair is on patrol and spots the stealth fighters, why does he not have a wingman? It seems rather unusual that they'd send a lone fighter out to patrol unknown space.

The guide explains that the Tiger's Claw had every available fighter in space and as a result missions included a number of solo wings. This happens pretty frequently in WC1, if your wingman is killed in an earlier mission.
 

Nomad Terror

Rear Admiral
The guide explains that the Tiger's Claw had every available fighter in space and as a result missions included a number of solo wings. This happens pretty frequently in WC1, if your wingman is killed in an earlier mission.

My mistake. I assumed this meant that every available fighter was in space doing long-range patrols. It would make little sense for a carrier to be behind enemy lines completely without CAP.

MjavTheGray said:
So... Blair was REALLY guilty?
You know... Not reporting enemy encounter...
Something to think about...

This is exactly why Blair was demoted to Captain. He was convicted of negligence in the court martial. However Tolwyn wanted to press it further and suggested Blair was a traitor, not just negligent.
 
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