Weapons and Armor - Kilrathi War Era

Iceblade

Admiral
I am trying to get a good handle on the differences between WC1/2 weapon and armor stats and those for WC3 and beyond. One major roadblock is the uncertainty in whether the units I am reading for WC3 and beyond are correct (cm's or armor units) or are WC1/2 units in error (cm should be dm).

Looking at the gun chart I seen linked and referenced in quite of few threads over the past decade, I notice how guns don't change much over time with regards to the amount of damage they do (similar units and magnitude of damage from WC1's laser to WCP's laser). This would seem to contradict the fact that gun technology improved to do 10x the amount of damage, so as to damage and penetrate Phase shielding.

As for armor, with the new alloy that is 60x in strength than that of the older alloy, would this mean that say a rapier made with 7.5 cm of this new alloy would have an equivalent armor value of 450 cm and thus the armor would not need to be as thick? Wouldn't that then require that all of the fighters' weapons would need to increase at least 10-fold in damage based on the old armor scale and corresponding be able to damage phase shielding.

Wait, do we know what the new alloy was that they started using on fighters? Isometal might have been too expensive to place on all of the fighters, so they were upgraded with plasteel instead possibly.
 
big answer with damages and histories and notes

-- DEFENCE and WEAPONS and WHEN WHAT CAME OUT ---

Privateer occurs round the same time as WC3 I think .... if I recall it starts at the beginning of the same year as WC3, and then Priv.Righteous Fire starts near the middle of that year.

-- DEFENCE TECH --

If you review its material (ship options) you'll see that from Priv to Priv:Righteous Fire they introduce a new kind of armor... and other goodies. There was even an entire "faked news article" in teh Priv:RF doc's about "an industrial accident leading to the creation of a new kind of armor" (iso-metal armor)

if I remember correctly, defence tech goes like this:

ERA ------------------------------------ NEW STUFF (or at least first time mentioned)

WC1 ---------------------------------- dura-steel (10X stronger than reg.steel) + regular shields
WC2---------------------- phase shields (on cap ships)
---------------------------- Plasteel armor (1 cm plasteel = 10 cm durasteel)

early WC3/Priv --------------------- Tungsten armor (1 cm Tungsten = 20 cm durasteel)

Priv.RF ------------------ iso-metal armor (1 cm iso-metal = 40 cm durasteel)
---------------------------- gun cooler (increases refire rate of particle + energy guns)
---------------------------- speed enchancer (improve max.speed and afterburner output)
---------------------------- thrust enhancer (for better turning + acceleration)
---------------------------- shield regenerator

NOTES:
defense equivalents quoted from: http://www.classicgaming.cc/pc/privateer/equipment.php

-- WEAPONS TECH --

yeah, weapons did improve over time, but you don't really see a massive upgrade in the laser until PRIV.2 and WC4/WCP with their "5-way laser" (using crystal mirrors or something to magnify output) and the "laser chaingun" (much shorter blasts but fired rapid "chaingun" style so that each "hit" actually consists of a dozen or so half-power hits, so that total resulting damage is not only more but occurs far more quickly)

I do remember there was another ships database here on CIC which had actual ship pictures (rather than how they appear in the HUD display) and if you clicked their weapon it would bring you to a page about that weapon. And if I remember correctly (once upon a time, 12 years ago) I actually went through all the game manuals and compare weapons damage rates, and they did slowly increase from one game to the next.

I also did a quick search and pulled up wedge's old post on Priv and Priv.RF weapons
post ref: http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?threadid=4056 (2/3rd's way down page)
file ref: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~hedgehog/privguns.txt

--- WC WEAPONS HISTORY ---

in general history (data ripped from WC: Armada along with "first time" a given weapon appears in overall series history). Armada introduced us to a lot of experimental one-offs and hold-overs, most of which sounded promising but got killed due to production expense or lack of usefulness

2628 – Laser Cannon, Meson Blaster, Plasma Gun
2632 – Photon Cannon
2640 – Neutron Gun (retired in 2668)
2650 – Mass Driver
2658 – Particle Cannon
2668 – Ion Cannon (not to be confused with the Ionic Pulse Cannon of 2665)
2669 – Reaper Cannon, Tachyon Cannon,

Capship Only:
2620 – Turreted Laser
2638 – Turreted Flak Cannon (retired 2668)
2645 – Turreted Neutron Gun
2653 – Phase Transit Cannon (extracted from Sivar Dreadnaught, operated problematically on a lesser scale as an anti-capship primary weapon, retired 2665)
2667 – Antimatter Gun
2669 – Capship Missile, Phase Shields,

--- My own ideas on why some weapons were developed then dropped ---

Until Armada, Kilrathi weapons were, for the most part, limited to lasers, mass drivers, neutron guns, and particle guns (with the last of the four being on only heavy fighters). Met by superior human tech, the Kilrathi attempted to branch out their weapons but as you can tell by the general list below, most of their weapons were failures.

While the particle gun was in use by kilrathi in 2654 it was only common to heavy fighter prototypes and ace-piloted ships due to energy limitations (pilots preferred more speed and shields to the heavy weapon). WC2’s Jalkehi and Gothri had particle guns, and the 2667 Bloodfang prototype sported 4 of them.

Two of the more promising guns, the Electron Gun and Phase Blaster, proved extremely valuable but unfortunately weren’t cost-effective enough for the Empire to keep developing and was phased out by WC3.

The third promising gun, the Plasma Bolt, was found to be variable in several ways: the further the target the less damage it did; and the further the range the but less charging time. In the end the Plasma Bolt would be scrapped as a long-range gun in favor of a more devastating short-to-mid range gun.

By WC4, after the fall of Kilrah, the main Kilrathi guns were the Photon Gun and the Particle Gun. Confed on the other hand would develop “Heavy” versions of the best weaker guns and even a “Light” version of the popular Tachyon gun.

By Prophecy the Kilrathi will have picked up the Ion Cannon, Stormfire Cannon, and redeveloped the Tachyon Gun. Confed will have developed several new guns: Chain Ion Cannon, Cloudburst, Dust Cannon, and Pulse Particle Cannon.

--- AS PER VARIOUS GAME MANUALS ---

Mass Accelerator Gun (Kilrathi).
A relative of the super-collider, this gun delivers light damage using blasts of sub-atomic particles.
Damage 15 dpph
Range 2600 km
Speed 2000 kps
Refire delay .14 sec
---notes--- the damage count must be wrong. This essentially sounds like a particle gun, except given lousy range and damage stats. The only way I can see this gun is in the history books, as in prior to WC1.

Sonic Accelerator (Kilrathi).
Still in the prototype stage, the long-range sonic accelerator gun uses a sonar tracking system. Damage potential is low, but will probably improve with time.
Damage 18 dpph
Range 4400 km
Speed 2400 kps
Refire delay .13 sec
---notes--- not listed on WC3+ ships the Sonic Accelerator appears to have fallen in disfavor against the common Laser which offers the same damage with an additional 600 km range (laser has an a 5000 km range). The Sonic has two advantages over the laser: it can be fired 7 times per second (in comparison to the laser’s 4/sec) allowing for a little more damage (126 damage/sec versus the laser’s mere 72 damage/sec); and it tracks. WC:Armada doesn’t give a power requirement, and seeing as I can’t find data on this gun anywhere else I’m guessing that its power requirement was higher than other comparable guns by damage and range.
---notes--- other than the fact that it tracks it sounds like another pre-WC1 gun.
---notes--- the only place I do see this gun would be as a field-weapon used by soldiers (weapons of a similar name are used by Kzinti in the Larry Nivens written Man-Kzin Wars books).

Flux Cannon (Kilrathi).
The flux cannon uses magnetic pulses to track and identify enemy ships. It delivers average damage at medium range and low energy cost.
Damage 20 dpph
Range 2500 km
Speed 2000 kps
Refire delay .14 sec
---note--- another lousy gun. Must be a hold-over from pre-WC1 like the Mass Accelerator. Otherwise the only useful property of this gun is the fact that it tracks.

Electron Gun (Kilrathi).
This weapon fires high energy bursts of electronic energy that effectively diminish shields. However, the electron gun has medium range and refire delay.
Damage 25 dpph
Range 3500 km
Speed 2500 kps
Refire delay .15 sec
---note--- FINALLY! A GUN THAT MAKES SENSE! Pity it didn’t survive into WC3.
---note--- a little less damage (-10) and a little more range (+1500) than the Mass Driver.
---note--- somewhat reintroduced as the "reaper" gun, but that gun has different stats

Phase Blaster (Kilrathi).
These guns interrupt the electrical phasing mechanism of energy shields. Phase blasters inflict heavy damage at medium range.
Damage 30 dpph
Range 3000 km
Speed 2200 kps
Refire delay .13 sec
---note--- another “makes sense” gun. Weaker than Confed’s Neutron Gun (-5) but better range (+500). Pity it didn’t survive into WC3.

Ionic Pulse Cannon.
This high-power cannon fires ionized electrical pulses that can down a light fighter with just a few shots. It inflicts high damage at medium range but renergizes more quickly than other guns. (Kilrathi Matter Disruptor)
Damage 33 dpph (33)
Range 2000 km (2000)
Speed 2500 kps (2300)
Refire delay .1 sec (.1)
---note--- per other sources, gun requires 30 nJ of power
---note--- one hell of a refire rate at 10 shots per second (that’s an amazing 330 damage/sec). Too bad the range wasn’t better. Still it was one hell of a gun back then.
---note--- still good, by 2668 its stats have evolved to: 30 dpph, 4500 km, and 0.35 seconds per refire. It looks like they cut the damage/sec by a third in order to more than double the range.

Plasma Gun (Kilrathi).
Plasma-bolt guns are new weapons, present only on a few fighter prototypes. These guns are only effective at short ranges and apply little damage. Don’t take them lightly — the blasts use little power and can be fired indefinitely. (the “Plasma Bolt”)
Damage 37 dpph
Range 4200 km
Speed 2800 kps
Refire delay .125 sec
---note--- another powerful weapon for the WC2/Armada era.
---note--- not to be confused with the bulkier Plasma Gun available in Privateer or most Confed fighters. (The Confed Plasma Gun has: 67 dpph, 44 nJ, 3000 km range, 0.50 seconds refire. This Kilrathi “Bolt” version is weaker but has 1/3rd greater range and can be fired 8 times a second. Comparison per dpph/second: Bolt does 296, regular Plasma does 134)

Particle Cannon (originally Kilrathi)
The particle cannon is one of the most significant energy technology that we possess. Prototypes were first developed three years into the war, when a similar cannon was extracted from a captured Kilrathi fighter. After 20 years of testing, engineers have finally perfected a comparable version capable of hurling minute nuclear particles at high speeds. Any impact results in a small nuclear explosion that gives off blast, heat, and radiation damage that has deplorable effects on the fighter's armor, hull, and electronic systems. In effect, particle cannons combine the extended range of lasers with the strong punch of neutron guns. This gun is however useless in atmospheric conditions; nevertheless, the particle cannon has almost completely replaced neutron guns in the Confederation Space Force.
Damage 43 dpph
Range 4200 km
Speed n/a
Refire 0.35
E-cost 22 nJ
---notes--- WC1 (stolen by Confed in 2638, working copy in 2658) / WC2 common
---notes--- a high-power gun for the Kilrathi for many years. Almost on par with the laser in terms of range and refire rate, the Particle Cannon does a whopping 43 dpph while (2.5x over laser) costing only twice the energy of the laser per shot.
---notes--- for many years Confed had weapons that were as powerful but lacked the range, or had the range but weren’t quite as powerful.
 
Hmm....I just thought of something....armor would be pretty easy to place on craft while in the field provided the supplies are available (and I guess in the proper shape to fit the craft eg pre-fab). So even if Rapiers were usually fitted and repaired with durasteel, they probably could be fitted with the new armor and weapons while away from stations. That must of been a crazy time on the front lines though what with both sides putting the new armors and weapons into use. I would imagine carriers got the new parts pretty quick, but farther flung destroyer and cruiser groups probably got a few surprises that decimated their defense wings.
 
Sorry bout the huge post... had to copy/edit it from a self-made write-up I did for my own fanfics.

Not everything you were asking is fully answered, but this should help a ton. Especially if you're thinking of sticking a weapon reference somewhere and weren't sure if that weapon even existed at that point in time.

I wish they had bought back some of the more-experimental weapons in WCP. They may have proved useful against the Nephilum.

I've got a few experimental story ideas where "alternate universe" kilrathi cross over with improved versions of some of these weapons. Alt's included WC3 ending with a kilrathi victory or more usually a terran/kilrathi stalemate leading to tempory alliances when the Nephilum (or some other bug-like species) show up (usually 'round WC4 time point, sometimes in place of the discovery of the Black Lance).
 
I am trying to get a good handle on the differences between WC1/2 weapon and armor stats and those for WC3 and beyond. One major roadblock is the uncertainty in whether the units I am reading for WC3 and beyond are correct (cm's or armor units) or are WC1/2 units in error (cm should be dm).

The honest truth that we like to overlook is that there was a clear error in Victory Streak which has been carried over into every shield/armor value listed for ships after that manual. What that manual lists as centimeters of shields and armor /should have/ been "damage units". At the same time, it correctly classifies the weapon penetration statistics as being listed in "tenths of a cm".

For example, Victory Streak says that a Hellcat has 280 cm/equivalent of rear shielding/armor and that he laser cannon does 18 damage units (1.8 cm). If Victory Streak were to be taken at face value, it would take *156* laser hits to destroy a Hellcat. In the mechanics of the game, the Hellcat has "280 units" of damage in the game and will take "18 units" of damage when hit -- so it will explode after 16 hits.

... but this error has been with us and carried over to the Wing Commander IV, Prophecy and Arena manuals--so it's a hard thing to just ignore at this late date.

As for armor, with the new alloy that is 60x in strength than that of the older alloy, would this mean that say a rapier made with 7.5 cm of this new alloy would have an equivalent armor value of 450 cm and thus the armor would not need to be as thick? Wouldn't that then require that all of the fighters' weapons would need to increase at least 10-fold in damage based on the old armor scale and corresponding be able to damage phase shielding.

Well... it means that in the loosest sense - a theoretical Rapier built in 2669 will have armor and shielding that puts it in the same league as the WC3 ships. I don't think that having a new alloy (be it plasteel, tungsten, isometal, platolum or otherwise) means you can instantly build a 'Multiple of X Rapier' wholly from it -- it would be more along the lines of that you are turning out a Rapier with a different level of armor that is countered on some level by the limitations of powerplant/spaceframe/etc.

Wait, do we know what the new alloy was that they started using on fighters? Isometal might have been too expensive to place on all of the fighters, so they were upgraded with plasteel instead possibly.

We do not... but isometal isn't an outrageous expense in Righteous Fire, anyway (and of course by 2669 it has made its way to the civilian market, which means something).

If you review its material (ship options) you'll see that from Priv to Priv:Righteous Fire they introduce a new kind of armor... and other goodies. There was even an entire "faked news article" in teh Priv:RF doc's about "an industrial accident leading to the creation of a new kind of armor" (iso-metal armor)

I think you're confusing isometal (the new armor available in Righteous Fire) with platolum (the new armor accidentally created at Ghorah Khar, per the Wing Commander 3 manual).

I do remember there was another ships database here on CIC which had actual ship pictures (rather than how they appear in the HUD display) and if you clicked their weapon it would bring you to a page about that weapon. And if I remember correctly (once upon a time, 12 years ago) I actually went through all the game manuals and compare weapons damage rates, and they did slowly increase from one game to the next.

Here is the gun chart discussed in the first post, which shows every known set of statistics for a gun: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/gunchart.htm

in general history (data ripped from WC: Armada along with "first time" a given weapon appears in overall series history). Armada introduced us to a lot of experimental one-offs and hold-overs, most of which sounded promising but got killed due to production expense or lack of usefulness

No, it didn't - it just included a number of guns we haven't seen since. The fact that we didn't fight anything that mounted the electron gun in Wing Commander III doesn't mean it was a secret prototype (especially since Armada and other manuals are pretty good about pointing out when a weapon *is* newly developed or just being tested).

I think Armada is a bit unfairly maligned when it comes to weirdo guns, too. It's actually continuing a trend -- it just reached critical mass in peoples minds where there were too many guns at once. A quick list of gun additions:

Wing Commander I-
Laser Cannon
Mass Driver Cannon
Neutron Gun

Wing Commander II-
Particle Cannon

Academy-
Photon Gun
Plasma Bolt
Reaper Cannon

Privateer-
Meson Blaster
Tachyon Gun
Ionic Pulse Cannon
Plasma Gun
Fusion Cannon

Armada-
Flux Cannon
Electron Gun
Mass Accelerator Gun
Sonic Accelerator
Phase Blaster

What's more, all the new Armada guns are 'Kilrathi only'... and not all of them appear in the actual game. I believe the original idea was going to be that the Kilrathi ships had a mostly unique set of guns compared to the Terran ones... and that died somewhere between when Voices of War went to print and when the game was released.

But I digress! The only one of these five that's specifically a prototype is the Sonic Accelerator (... which isn't in the game).

2628 – Laser Cannon, Meson Blaster, Plasma Gun

These dates are all from the Kilrathi Saga manual -- but it's worth pointing out that they're often problematic... since we see various guns much earlier than their supposed service entry dates on occasion (especially, in Action Stations). In all likelihood, the KS dates refer to the latest version of a particular weapon...

While the particle gun was in use by kilrathi in 2654 it was only common to heavy fighter prototypes and ace-piloted ships due to energy limitations (pilots preferred more speed and shields to the heavy weapon). WC2’s Jalkehi and Gothri had particle guns, and the 2667 Bloodfang prototype sported 4 of them.

I don't think there's any particular evidence that the Bloodfang is a "prototype" in Wing Commander 2 (it has, after all, been around for eleven years when you see it at that point... it first shows up in the WC2 demo, in 2656).

Two of the more promising guns, the Electron Gun and Phase Blaster, proved extremely valuable but unfortunately weren’t cost-effective enough for the Empire to keep developing and was phased out by WC3.

The third promising gun, the Plasma Bolt, was found to be variable in several ways: the further the target the less damage it did; and the further the range the but less charging time. In the end the Plasma Bolt would be scrapped as a long-range gun in favor of a more devastating short-to-mid range gun.

Again, this background isn't mentioned anywhere. More likely they're ordinary weapons... and they first show up in Voices of War -- and Kilrathi weapons production ends pretty suddenly six months or so later. :)

By Prophecy the Kilrathi will have picked up the Ion Cannon, Stormfire Cannon, and redeveloped the Tachyon Gun. Confed will have developed several new guns: Chain Ion Cannon, Cloudburst, Dust Cannon, and Pulse Particle Cannon.

The Kilrathi ships don't have Stormfires in Wing Commander Prophecy... and with all deference to the Cult of the Stormfire and with recognition that Confed has a new 'Stormfire 2' in Prophecy: the original weapon was supposed to be *old*. Pliers pulled them off an old freighter (?) for you in WCIV, they weren't a new secret weapon.

---notes--- other than the fact that it tracks it sounds like another pre-WC1 gun.

And the fact that, as you quoted, it is "still in the prototype stages" during Wing Commander Armada (2669).

(Sonic Accelerator Gun) ---notes--- the only place I do see this gun would be as a field-weapon used by soldiers (weapons of a similar name are used by Kzinti in the Larry Nivens written Man-Kzin Wars books).

I wish we could go a single post without this :)

Never the less, the Sonic Accelerator Gun isn't some clever super technology -- it's an amusing up-yours joke to everyone who obsesses over accurate physics in Wing Commander. :) Origin's response to people wondering why lasers don't travel the speed of light and so forth was to add a *sound based space gun* to Armada... (or, not really, since it doesn't show up on any of the ships in the game).

---notes--- WC1 (stolen by Confed in 2638, working copy in 2658) / WC2 common

Another one of those problematic histories -- the Broadswords on Wing Commander Academy, for example, have particle cannons in 2654.

Quick edit - the Stormfire was from a 'pirate fighter', not a freighter.
 
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Okay, so I can see where the Rapier armor levels are comparable to the hellcat's (75/65 to 100/80 due to differences in the ypr and speed between the craft). So no armor change, but what about the shields. It would seem that the fighter shields were improved by double.

And this doesn't clear up the phase shields and weapon penetration. I would guess however that the phase shields on capships are actually 300 cm and 3000 damage units. So I take it that the improvements in weapons manifest in 10x damage by each gun so much as newer weapons (or newer variants of older weapons) such as ion cannons, reapers and plasma guns that did more damage and were able to bring down the phase shields. You probably can't bring down a capship's shields in wc3/4 very easily with just lasers without have really good gun capacity.
 
yeah but one could always argue...

Well, as I also said, a lot of my research dates/data was based off manuals.

Many guns probably existed before the dates I gave but since individual reversions aren't listed we can only guess at the revision number.

For example, WC1's Laser Gun is obviously not at a "mk.1" stage cause the war has been going on for years by WC1 and teh weapon has probably been upgraded and redesigned many times. It could well be on the "mk.7" by WC1, and easily be on the "mk.18" by WC4. Just because teh stats haven't changed doesn't mean they use tech and parts and materials from a dozen years earlier.

Likewise, the Ionic Pulse Gun which started roughly 2665 (Armada) had gained a ton of range at a cost of damage by 2668 (Priv). Whether this happened overnight (mk.4 to mk.5) or over six revisions (say, slight changes every 6 months, changing the gun from mk.4 to mk.10). We can only guess.

What's more, all the new Armada guns are 'Kilrathi only'... and not all of them appear in the actual game. I believe the original idea was going to be that the Kilrathi ships had a mostly unique set of guns compared to the Terran ones... and that died somewhere between when Voices of War went to print and when the game was released.

Actually, Ionic Pulse was new to the Terrans. The kilrathi had a gun with identical stats and weapon description (hence the text "Kilrathi Matter Disruptor" in brackets at the end of the weapon description). I couldn't find if both sides had developed teh gun at the same time or if one side had stolen/copied it and just renamed it.

Quote:
in general history (data ripped from WC: Armada along with "first time" a given weapon appears in overall series history). Armada introduced us to a lot of experimental one-offs and hold-overs, most of which sounded promising but got killed due to production expense or lack of usefulness

No, it didn't - it just included a number of guns we haven't seen since. The fact that we didn't fight anything that mounted the electron gun in Wing Commander III doesn't mean it was a secret prototype (especially since Armada and other manuals are pretty good about pointing out when a weapon *is* newly developed or just being tested).

Well, I'd beg to differ. Both sides had been nearly bankrupt by the end of WC3 and if a gun has poor stats and pilots are complaining that its not very useful (or even "useless to the point that they'd rather have a standard laser gun") and its an expensive gun, well, most gov't and military ppl would then cut it out in favor of something a lot cheaper (like the laser gun) or something just a little cheaper but found "more useful".
..... Development of said "useless" gun may have been funded and research into improving it may have been done, but sometimes it just proves a waste of time and money. Or one side might stop development only to find that a year later that the other side had reverse-engineered the tech from salvaged parts and developed it into something awesome, and then had the "new improved" version stolen back (in other words, risk giving your enemy a weak weapon so that he can risk the time and money to improve it. If the weapon is improved you steal it back. If the weapon research goes bad, then they've lost resources trying to improve it while you've spent resources developing something else which is hopefully as good if not better.)

As for the Sonic Accelerator... that's ~~~. One could even argue that Star Trek's "phaser" is a sonic weapon. And before a dozen ppl reply "but it can't be sonic cause it clearly works in a vacuum" ... its not sonic in the sence of using sound or air. Its "sonic" in the sense that it uses "resonance of nadion particles" and that the resulting "blast" can be "widely dispersed" over and area or "tightly focused" down to the same tightness of say, a laser.

Its like the "reversing of the neutron flow" in Dr.Who. Neutrons can't be reversed (they have no polarity) but a "neutron flow" can be reversed cause it means that a stream of neutrons are made to travel in one direction or another (opposite) direction. A neutron flow for those who are interested, consists of a "source/emitter", a path (usually defined by a graviton flow or flux, so that all neutrons physically move "in one direction", and a "receiver" (where the neutrons are then redirected, or broken down, or react with some other kind of particle by being smashed or whatever). Thus you can even have a "phased neutron flow" cause the flow can have the neutrons moving in waves or groups or any means you want. You can even have a "multi-phase neutron flow" ;)
 
Well, the laser cannon remains unchanged for many years (MK 25 right up to WCP where the gun gets a boost in speed)
 
Okay, so I can see where the Rapier armor levels are comparable to the hellcat's (75/65 to 100/80 due to differences in the ypr and speed between the craft). So no armor change, but what about the shields. It would seem that the fighter shields were improved by double.

Sorry, I got so excited about the idea that someone wanted to talk about those crazy Armada guns that I missed the point of the thread. :)

It's not so much that the armor wouldn't change as much as is that it wouldn't change in an absolutely predictable way. The 2668 model Rapier II would have much stronger armor than the 2654 model... but it would also have a new powerplant and new weapons and so forth balanced together. The same goes for the shields -- they wouldn't multiply in a linear fashion so much as the later Rapier would have a newer, different shield generator that is supported by its spaceframe.

(Y/P/R, though, doesn't *really* change -- because the numbers in Wing Commander I & II don't make any sense as actual units. It doesn't *really* take 36 seconds to spin the Rapier around, which is what a 10 degree per second Yaw rate would mean. In actuality the fighters aren't particularly less maneuverable than the later ships.)

And this doesn't clear up the phase shields and weapon penetration. I would guess however that the phase shields on capships are actually 300 cm and 3000 damage units. So I take it that the improvements in weapons manifest in 10x damage by each gun so much as newer weapons (or newer variants of older weapons) such as ion cannons, reapers and plasma guns that did more damage and were able to bring down the phase shields. You probably can't bring down a capship's shields in wc3/4 very easily with just lasers without have really good gun capacity.

I think idea behind phase shields, in Wing Commander II, is that they are both very strong and that they recharge *very* quickly. Hitting a Fralthra with a laser cannon is technically damaging the shield... it just regenerates more quickly than the gun can penetrate it (which is why a Mace kills a capital ship -- it does enough damage to take down the shield and the hull in one blast).

So the assumption would certainly be that there are (much) stronger fighter weapons in Wing Commander III, possibly with some added bonus that keeps shields down. (We also hear about fighters in this era having phase shields in the novels -- the idea being that what was unbeatable technology on Wing Commander II's capital ships is in Wing Commander III the basis for all ordinary shielding.)

Likewise, the Ionic Pulse Gun which started roughly 2665 (Armada) had gained a ton of range at a cost of damage by 2668 (Priv). Whether this happened overnight (mk.4 to mk.5) or over six revisions (say, slight changes every 6 months, changing the gun from mk.4 to mk.10). We can only guess.

Privateer and Armada were both (early) 2669.

Actually, Ionic Pulse was new to the Terrans. The kilrathi had a gun with identical stats and weapon description (hence the text "Kilrathi Matter Disruptor" in brackets at the end of the weapon description). I couldn't find if both sides had developed teh gun at the same time or if one side had stolen/copied it and just renamed it.

The Ionic Pulse Cannon was introduced in Privateer, not Armada.

Well, I'd beg to differ. Both sides had been nearly bankrupt by the end of WC3 and if a gun has poor stats and pilots are complaining that its not very useful (or even "useless to the point that they'd rather have a standard laser gun") and its an expensive gun, well, most gov't and military ppl would then cut it out in favor of something a lot cheaper (like the laser gun) or something just a little cheaper but found "more useful".
..... Development of said "useless" gun may have been funded and research into improving it may have been done, but sometimes it just proves a waste of time and money. Or one side might stop development only to find that a year later that the other side had reverse-engineered the tech from salvaged parts and developed it into something awesome, and then had the "new improved" version stolen back (in other words, risk giving your enemy a weak weapon so that he can risk the time and money to improve it. If the weapon is improved you steal it back. If the weapon research goes bad, then they've lost resources trying to improve it while you've spent resources developing something else which is hopefully as good if not better.)

But this is an elaborate explanation for an issue that doesn't exist in the first place. There's no existential problem with the Kilrathi having a bunch of guns we don't see again (... don't see again in a post-war era where the Kilrathi aren't building new ships.) We don't need some new backstory about pilots complaining about them.


Well, the laser cannon remains unchanged for many years (MK 25 right up to WCP where the gun gets a boost in speed)

Yeah, the 'Mark' numbers for the guns are the same from Wing Commander I up through Arena. The suggestion, though, is that that particular designation refers to some overall scheme of gun designation rather than the iteration of that gun:

Mk. 13 Meson Blaster
Mk. 25 Laser Cannon
Mk. 30A Mass Driver Cannon
Mk. 40F Neutron Gun
Mk. 44L Ionic Pulse Cannon
Mk. 55 Tachyon Gun
MK. 58G Plasma Gun

(Maybe the occasional letter is the variant?)
 
What explains the failure of the AMG to bypass shields in WC3? We know that AMGs completely bypassed shields to directly attack armor in WC2. Why did the AMGs batter shields in WC3? Was this a conscious change by the game developers?
 
Maybe it was the improvement in gun pools that allowed fighters to outpace phase shielding. One full gun blast from a longbow does approximately 200 du while say a Tallahassee has a recharge of 300 du/s. Yet the longbow could get off more than 1 of these blasts per second (two per second passed on the plasma gun's half-second fire delay). Still it would seem that it would take a while to knock down a capship's 3000 du shields to get to the armor doing barely 100 du on average every second on the shields themselves.

Somehow I don't remember it taking quite so long to take down capships with the guns of a longbow. Then again a kilrathi heavy destroyer has 2000 du shields and a recharge of 200 du/s. What I find odd is the core strength values are huge (16000 du) as these would increase the time even more.

How many shots does it usually take for a heavy destroyer? I calculate it taking about 100 seconds of firing twice each second (the first for the shield recharge, the second for damage) and therefore about 200 full gun blasts to wipe out a Ralaxath.

Well I guess almost two minutes of blasting away at a heavy destroyer seems reasonable esp. if I was playing on non-armor/shield/weapon-altered difficulty.
 
But this is an elaborate explanation for an issue that doesn't exist in the first place. There's no existential problem with the Kilrathi having a bunch of guns we don't see again (... don't see again in a post-war era where the Kilrathi aren't building new ships.) We don't need some new backstory about pilots complaining about them.

Besides, if the guns were recalled/replaced for being cruddy, then the pilots wouldn't be complaining about them. (~~~... its an actual scientific rule: you can't disprove a negative)... you can only speculate on reasons until you find a way to test.

A negative can't be disproved unless you're 100% unable to test it at all. No official explanation was ever given, or even hinted at. So until an official ruling comes out, any logical fan-submitted reason is 100% possible... no matter how rediculous or stupid it seems.

a better go at the "they were discontinued because..." idea

Another explanation is that the guns were deemed "worthy enough for field testing by a single battlegroup/carrier", and that when the carrier failed to return (assuming Terrans win at end of WC:Armada) or that it did survive to return (but had a high mortality rate which was blaimed on "newer weapons that proved relatively useless and need heavy improvement before being wide-spread to the entire empire").

Would made, sense, right? First try them on some ships, and they pass (cause the targets are rocks or other ships with rookies in them). Then try them on a larger group of ships. I mean teh Terrans practically did the same thing with the Excalibur fighter and its (then experimental) loadout.

KNOWN EXAMPLES --- KILRATHI MIND-SET

There was at least two instances in the books where it said that teh cats throw new pilots into the lousiest oldest fighters (unless their of nobility, in which case they can get a better ship, or provide one themselves).

And we know they don't use computer sims for training (they prefer LIVE targets)... so essentially ALL recruits are given basic pilots training and then for their first mission are essentually split into two groups and made to shoot LIVE ROUNDS at each other. ONLY the ones that survive get to go on and fight in the actual war with the Terrans.

... Second mind-set example of teh Kilrathi High Command ...

I mean look at my fav WC2 cat ship, the Jalkehi... it was their WC2 era version of WC3's Terran Excalibur... supposedly introduced (by manual) as having been out about 2~3 years before WC2 (so roughly 7 years after WC1... we don't see it cause Blair's still serving on a backworld station). It got dropped cause it was super-expensive. So expensive that by the time Blair returns to the war that its gone from "new and highly common" to the "hard to beat, IF and WHEN you happen to be unlucky enough to run into it. Thankfully its high cost and low production run means that less than half of cat carriers ever saw them, and that those that did get them either lost most of them in combat over teh years and that the remainder were usually stripped for parts".

You could say "well why didn't they keep it for just the ace pilots", and well, they did, but even with restricting it to aces-and-nobles only wasn't enough. The parts were pricey, maintenance was pricey, the guns could be used on other cheaper ships. The cats made the mistake of favoring lots of cheap ships with a near-endless supply of rookies.

In fact there were SO MANY young upstarts from non-noble or low-noble clans/families that (much like the Kzinti) the High Command had to constantly look to ways to reduce the numbers. Officially this isn't admitted to (but it is hinted at).

Once the supply of Jalkehi dried up there weren't enough to operate proper all-Jalkehi squads with them. By WC2 it got to the point that ONE Jalkehi was usually assigned as the "heavy hitter" to a wing or two of small or medium fighters. (Officially, that is). Unofficially (but strongly hinited at) is that this was done to prevent total loss of these "countless low-blood rookies who were looking for glory and a chance to get promoted".

That's where the books/manuals end the info, but we can look at it and say, "you know, if they bit the bullet and decided to pay for the ship and let veterans and any pilot who had survived more than x-number of times in combat pilot the ship, well, teh war could have ended very badly for teh Terrans right then and there. No WC3. No Excalibur to save the day.
 
What explains the failure of the AMG to bypass shields in WC3? We know that AMGs completely bypassed shields to directly attack armor in WC2. Why did the AMGs batter shields in WC3? Was this a conscious change by the game developers?

Is there an anti-matter gun in Wing Commander III, or is this just something fans decided? I've never been entirely clear; the supporting material doesn't mention it... and the manual seems to indicate that the 'yellow' gun on some of the capital ships is a tachyon cannon. (Regardless of what it is, I'm sure it's not a conscious attempt to change the fiction of how AMGs and/or shields work... more likely it's a result of the game's rare call for capital ship battle mechanics being far from the focus of the developers. Similarly, AMGs don't 'really' skip fighter shields in Wing Commander II... it's just that capital ship vs. capital ship effects are highly scripted.)

Besides, if the guns were recalled/replaced for being cruddy, then the pilots wouldn't be complaining about them. (~~~... its an actual scientific rule: you can't disprove a negative)... you can only speculate on reasons until you find a way to test.

A negative can't be disproved unless you're 100% unable to test it at all. No official explanation was ever given, or even hinted at. So until an official ruling comes out, any logical fan-submitted reason is 100% possible... no matter how rediculous or stupid it seems.

Err, that's not an actual scientific rule -- it's one of those simple logical fallacies that we all got tired of after the first time the internet learned about them ("argument from ignorance"). Remember the idea of burden of proof -- the person making the claim owns the requirement to support it.

Another explanation is that the guns were deemed "worthy enough for field testing by a single battlegroup/carrier", and that when the carrier failed to return (assuming Terrans win at end of WC:Armada) or that it did survive to return (but had a high mortality rate which was blaimed on "newer weapons that proved relatively useless and need heavy improvement before being wide-spread to the entire empire").

Would made, sense, right? First try them on some ships, and they pass (cause the targets are rocks or other ships with rookies in them). Then try them on a larger group of ships. I mean teh Terrans practically did the same thing with the Excalibur fighter and its (then experimental) loadout.

It wouldn't make sense for a few reasons, including:

- We know about these guns in the first place because they appear in the Confederation's intelligence report.
- We hear all about the "single battlegroup/carrier" without learning about any secret weapons or test plans or anything of the sort.
- The actual game involves mass producing fighters which use those guns--not only for carrier operations, but for planetary garrisons as well. (Except, of course, for guns like the sonic weapon... which don't show up used anywhere in your single carrier/battlegroup that's testing these guns.)
- There's no time necessity here; Kilrah is destroyed a matter of months later. No one wonders why there aren't new Kilrathi guns after 2669 -- because there aren't any at all.
- The fact that a gun is a prototype is something frequently pointed out in the manuals (Reaper in WC3, all the special guns in Academy) -- and that's mentioned for *one* of these guns.
- No one designs five completely ordinary guns which seem to have no specific flaws, tools up their factories to build them, changes their spacecraft designs to use them and so on and so forth and then decides to change all of this in a flash.

There was at least two instances in the books where it said that teh cats throw new pilots into the lousiest oldest fighters (unless their of nobility, in which case they can get a better ship, or provide one themselves).

I can't remember this actually happening in the books; as far as I can remember it was something the old Terran Confederation Underground site claimed about the Salthi that has survived as an unsourced legend (and in fact we see the opposite in Wing Commander I - rookie pilots being assigned Gratha.)

And we know they don't use computer sims for training (they prefer LIVE targets)... so essentially ALL recruits are given basic pilots training and then for their first mission are essentually split into two groups and made to shoot LIVE ROUNDS at each other. ONLY the ones that survive get to go on and fight in the actual war with the Terrans.

I believe this is also unsourced. Is the trainsim on the Karga in False Colors Kilrathi, or was it added later (it certainly simulates Kilrathi ships... but I can't remember if we're told where it came from)?

I mean look at my fav WC2 cat ship, the Jalkehi... it was their WC2 era version of WC3's Terran Excalibur... supposedly introduced (by manual) as having been out about 2~3 years before WC2 (so roughly 7 years after WC1... we don't see it cause Blair's still serving on a backworld station). It got dropped cause it was super-expensive. So expensive that by the time Blair returns to the war that its gone from "new and highly common" to the "hard to beat, IF and WHEN you happen to be unlucky enough to run into it. Thankfully its high cost and low production run means that less than half of cat carriers ever saw them, and that those that did get them either lost most of them in combat over teh years and that the remainder were usually stripped for parts".

The basis for this claim is flawed. The manual doesn't give an introduction date for the Jalkehi... but we do see them on Wing Commander Academy, in 2654--which means that by the end of Wing Commander II, where we still encounter them with some regularity, the design is *at least* twelve years old (though we do see them flown by Khasra's squadron in WC2 and then apparently replaced by Gothri in Special Operations 1). But more than that, this is another unnecessary bit of background -- because no one, ever, wondered why we don't see slightly more Jalkehi in Wing Commander II.
 
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