We are your superiors
- Thread starter Raptor
- Start date
Not exactly. Blair smoked several of them in the final fight, and for all their talents, Blair and Maniac were just two pilots. The bulk of the Border Worlds pilots had even less experiance than the Black Lance did. (in the novel, Blair and Maniac were shaking their heads at the BWers using kids who were straight out scratch 'flight schools.') OTH, if Blair and Maniac *were* solely responsible for defeating the Black Lance, it doesn't say much for the BL that all of them with their Dragons were beaten by two pilots, one of whom was flying a Hellcat. As for Black Lancers on the Princeton, they were wiped out to the last man because they even killed medics who were trying to save their wounded. That is more suggestive of fantaticism (which is very effective, but has its drawbacks) as of pure skill.
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor
I'm thinkin...
Spaceman
I tend to believe that the Black Lance defeated themselves. They thought of themseles as being superior to everyone else and that was their weakness. They're swollen heads made too big a target for the opposition.
But seriously they figured because they have such superior weapons that they expect opponents to turn tail and run. I don't know if they were combat inexperienced or not but history has proven many times that an experienced soldier or group of soldiers will more often that not defeat an inexperienced opponent with better equipment. Example: Vietnam. The Viet Cong Army wasn't as well equipped as the U.S. but they were experienced soldiers at guerilla warfare. The U.S. had it in their minds that with their better weapons they would defeat the VC but the U.S. commanders were not experienced in jungle warfare.
But seriously they figured because they have such superior weapons that they expect opponents to turn tail and run. I don't know if they were combat inexperienced or not but history has proven many times that an experienced soldier or group of soldiers will more often that not defeat an inexperienced opponent with better equipment. Example: Vietnam. The Viet Cong Army wasn't as well equipped as the U.S. but they were experienced soldiers at guerilla warfare. The U.S. had it in their minds that with their better weapons they would defeat the VC but the U.S. commanders were not experienced in jungle warfare.Seems everyone here has touched on at least a peice of what I think but I'll go ahead and type a bit 
OK here we go. The Black Lance were genetically superior, through bioconvergence, genetic engineering, what have you, to the average human being. And if I'm not mistaken all the pilots of the Black Lance were GE'd, it was the station/meneal task personnel that were just regular 'fit' humans. I believe that the only time the Black lance are engaged and defeated (since there are only a limited number of the Dragons) by anything other than another Dragon was when Blair or Maniac were at the stick (both novel and game). Blair as we all know is the best pilot in the universe, so his ability to knock out a Lance-piloted Dragon is not in question. Maniac on the other hand , I pretty much rack any kill that pilot gets as a lot of raw skill mixed in with a healthy portion of luck, so it's not to much of a stretch that Maniac could take one down.
Another good point is the experience factor. You take someone who's been engineered from birth to do something (say play football - sorry I just watched the Packers stomp a mud-hole in the bears), give him all the training in the world (drill him in tackling, running, carrying the football) and he still will not be a match for a seasoned veteran on teh field of combat (newbie will not even hold the jock-strap of even a middle of the road NFL-veteran. Why do you think young hotshot quarterbacks who have been drilled in football their whole lives come to the NFL and get shown up by veterans who supposedly have lesser talent?).
Another thing is something can be genetically superior to something else but not neccesarily better. Take our genetic engineering of fruit for example. Take a hydroponically-grown, hormone-injected, cross-pollinated tomato and tell me it tastes better than what your grandmother grew in her garden from the seeds she grew last year. Genetic engineering is just like any other type of engineering, there are trade-offs. You can't make something better in one area without sacrificing something from another. The Black Lance maybe genetically superior to the normmal person, but 'genetically superior' doesn't nessecarily mean 'better'. Better chance at being superior, but not a guarantee.
I liked the Vietnam comparison from earlier. A better equipped, better trained, superior force is turned away by one that is fighting for the survival of their country and more experienced in the ways of the type of warfare that must be waged. Good example of history repeating itself.
Anyway, I think I've hit upon everything I wanted to. Bottom line . . . Better equipment, better training and better genes don't mean jack shit when your facing someone who is more seasoned (and also they don't stand a chance against the Heart of the Tiger and the Maniac!!! ). That's why people don't start out in the military as Commanding officers, they have a little something called, you guesssed it, experience to accumulate along the way. SOmething about it making you a little wiser.
There's my 2 cents . . you can give me back my change if you wish.
C-ya
OK here we go. The Black Lance were genetically superior, through bioconvergence, genetic engineering, what have you, to the average human being. And if I'm not mistaken all the pilots of the Black Lance were GE'd, it was the station/meneal task personnel that were just regular 'fit' humans. I believe that the only time the Black lance are engaged and defeated (since there are only a limited number of the Dragons) by anything other than another Dragon was when Blair or Maniac were at the stick (both novel and game). Blair as we all know is the best pilot in the universe, so his ability to knock out a Lance-piloted Dragon is not in question. Maniac on the other hand , I pretty much rack any kill that pilot gets as a lot of raw skill mixed in with a healthy portion of luck, so it's not to much of a stretch that Maniac could take one down.
Another good point is the experience factor. You take someone who's been engineered from birth to do something (say play football - sorry I just watched the Packers stomp a mud-hole in the bears), give him all the training in the world (drill him in tackling, running, carrying the football) and he still will not be a match for a seasoned veteran on teh field of combat (newbie will not even hold the jock-strap of even a middle of the road NFL-veteran. Why do you think young hotshot quarterbacks who have been drilled in football their whole lives come to the NFL and get shown up by veterans who supposedly have lesser talent?).
Another thing is something can be genetically superior to something else but not neccesarily better. Take our genetic engineering of fruit for example. Take a hydroponically-grown, hormone-injected, cross-pollinated tomato and tell me it tastes better than what your grandmother grew in her garden from the seeds she grew last year. Genetic engineering is just like any other type of engineering, there are trade-offs. You can't make something better in one area without sacrificing something from another. The Black Lance maybe genetically superior to the normmal person, but 'genetically superior' doesn't nessecarily mean 'better'. Better chance at being superior, but not a guarantee.
I liked the Vietnam comparison from earlier. A better equipped, better trained, superior force is turned away by one that is fighting for the survival of their country and more experienced in the ways of the type of warfare that must be waged. Good example of history repeating itself.
Anyway, I think I've hit upon everything I wanted to. Bottom line . . . Better equipment, better training and better genes don't mean jack shit when your facing someone who is more seasoned (and also they don't stand a chance against the Heart of the Tiger and the Maniac!!!
). That's why people don't start out in the military as Commanding officers, they have a little something called, you guesssed it, experience to accumulate along the way. SOmething about it making you a little wiser.There's my 2 cents . . you can give me back my change if you wish.
C-ya
Well, the thing with Blair's experiance is that he's been sitting on a farm for the past three years. You would be rusty as hell after all that downtime, no matter how how great a pilot you are. Not only that, Blair is certainly not a super human pilot that no-one else can defeat. We see at the start of the WC3 novel that he and Hobbes have a very hard time with a small group of Dralthis while flying Thunderbolts. And it doesn't say much about the Black Lance if their Dragons weren't shot down except by other Dragons, seeing how much more advanced the Dragons were than the most advanced craft used by the Border Worlders (Avengers/Banshees/Vindicators) and even more so than their baseline craft (Ferrets/Rapiers/Sabres). What that says is that Black Lance pilots are safe as long as their opponents are flying craft 10 or 20 years older than theirs.
Also, Viper, while I like your analysis of genetic modification, it's important not to confuse "genetic engineering" or "genetic modification" with "genetic superiority". As you say, people can design or modify genes in an attemp to get certain results, but the results may not be all you're trying to achieve. (It's the same with any other type of design- how many industrial/engineering designs end up on the scrap heap?) The only way genetic superiority can be proved is through the results, and I don't see the Black Lance achieving those results.
Best, Raptor
You would be rusty as hell after all that downtime, no matter how how great a pilot you are. Not only that, Blair is certainly not a super human pilot that no-one else can defeat. We see at the start of the WC3 novel that he and Hobbes have a very hard time with a small group of Dralthis while flying Thunderbolts. And it doesn't say much about the Black Lance if their Dragons weren't shot down except by other Dragons, seeing how much more advanced the Dragons were than the most advanced craft used by the Border Worlders (Avengers/Banshees/Vindicators) and even more so than their baseline craft (Ferrets/Rapiers/Sabres). What that says is that Black Lance pilots are safe as long as their opponents are flying craft 10 or 20 years older than theirs. Also, Viper, while I like your analysis of genetic modification, it's important not to confuse "genetic engineering" or "genetic modification" with "genetic superiority". As you say, people can design or modify genes in an attemp to get certain results, but the results may not be all you're trying to achieve. (It's the same with any other type of design- how many industrial/engineering designs end up on the scrap heap?) The only way genetic superiority can be proved is through the results, and I don't see the Black Lance achieving those results.
Best, Raptor
cff
Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Well the Black Lance might have had the best genes, the best education and the best tech, but they had some stuff going against them:
* Experience. No matter how talented and well trained they lacked actual combat experience (except maybe Seether).
Now the Borderworld is exactly the opposite: no training, much experience. So it isn't much surprise for me that they could do some tricks that defeated the superior force.
* Teamwork. Again the BL seemed to be no teamplayers unlike the BW. Big disadvantage.
* Arrogance. Well obviously they hugely underestimated the enemy.
* Time. How long does the conflict last? A Week? Well it is not that hard to delay an invasion by a week if you pull every trick possible (and the BW did). But soon the enemy will adapt and run over you. I think the BL mostly just didn't have enough time to win.
* Guerilla Warfare. That is pretty much what the BW did. As we know it is very hard/impossible to win against a group that would rather die then to be conquered. No matter how many resources you got at your hands.
Note that the BL won about every direct conflict. They almost took out the Intrepid, took out the St Helen,...
They did so even against Blair who most certainly would have been above average even by BL measures.
Bottom line is that I think the BL would have far easier won against the Confed Forces then against the inferior BW force. You can foresee the strategy of an ordered armed force. What is dangerous are the amateurs. And the BW is full of them
* Experience. No matter how talented and well trained they lacked actual combat experience (except maybe Seether).
Now the Borderworld is exactly the opposite: no training, much experience. So it isn't much surprise for me that they could do some tricks that defeated the superior force.
* Teamwork. Again the BL seemed to be no teamplayers unlike the BW. Big disadvantage.
* Arrogance. Well obviously they hugely underestimated the enemy.
* Time. How long does the conflict last? A Week? Well it is not that hard to delay an invasion by a week if you pull every trick possible (and the BW did). But soon the enemy will adapt and run over you. I think the BL mostly just didn't have enough time to win.
* Guerilla Warfare. That is pretty much what the BW did. As we know it is very hard/impossible to win against a group that would rather die then to be conquered. No matter how many resources you got at your hands.
Note that the BL won about every direct conflict. They almost took out the Intrepid, took out the St Helen,...
They did so even against Blair who most certainly would have been above average even by BL measures.
Bottom line is that I think the BL would have far easier won against the Confed Forces then against the inferior BW force. You can foresee the strategy of an ordered armed force. What is dangerous are the amateurs. And the BW is full of them
cff
Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Genetics is a difficult field. For one your skill isn't solely determined by genetic makeup. So even if they had been superior on that field their education/their environment might have screwed up a good deal.
Also I doubt something like superior genes exist at all.
Every advantage comes with some disadvantage. Tell me an advantage and I'll come up with a situation you'll have problems with.
The whole BL for examle would be extremely vulnerable against gene selection themself. Heck they would be very vulnerable against any biological or chemical warfare.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The 'bio-convergence' stuff was a recent discovery used to produce the genselect bioweapon. The actual genetic enhancement of project fighter pilots had been done twenty years earlier.
Erm, they're "just two pilots" who happen to be the absolute best in every measurable respect (Academy standings, actual accomplishments, amount of experience, awards, killscores, etc). Maniac and Blair are by no means normal Confed fighter pilots.
And in the few instances where we actually see Project fighter pilots going up against average Border Worlders (early on in the novel), the Border Worlders are creamed...
I think you're forgetting that the vast majority of the WC4 campaign was *not* fought against enhanced project fighter pilots, but against Confed pilots or hired mercenaries. The few times we see project forces act, they do very well (against Border Worlders early in the novel, against the Kilrathi, etc).
There were two *understrength* squadrons (Blair had destroyed at least four and probably more of their fighters during the Axius missions) onboard the Vesuvius -- which means that of the hundreds of fighters on the heavy carrier, less than thirty were project Lances. And the only person who had any success against them was *Blair* (Maniac's Hellcat was nearly destroyed by Seether). It's not that the Border Worlds didn't do anything -- they were responsible for the victory... but the victory was against regular Confed pilots, not project forces.
I don't see the connection -- yes, they fought to the last man and that was fanatical... but Dekker also comments about how they're excellent fighters.
Anytime you play with something on the genetic level you are genetically engineering something. The first guy (actually a monk) who cross-pollinated flowers to come up with a better strain or even the lowly gardner who takes the stalks of 2 plants and patches them together to form a stronger organsim (there's a term for this I just can't think of it off the top of my head) is involved with genetic engineering. You don't have to have the technology capable of cloning sheep to have that designation, just have a plan in making genetic changes in an organism. Also, form my previous example the GE'd tomato is genetically superior to a normal tomato. It lasts longer, is more resistant to temperature changes and can be grown in much more diverse soil compositions, it just has to trade taste to get these attributes. But my point is that genetically superior doesn't nessacarily mean better. THe BL were genetically superior to normal humans, this just doesn't mean that they are better/stronger/faster than one.
And reiterating what Bandit said earlier (and what I hinted at, I think) the BL pretty much trashed any 'normal' pilot they went up against, even in the Black Hellcats from the Novel. It was only when they come up to the plate against the piloting skills of Maniac and Blair that they met their matches.
Oh and for the going insane part from cloning I just have to say . . . Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over? Has the sheep (Dolly??) that was cloned 5 years ago went on a killing rampage that I haven't heard of? When cloning something you are doing nothing that doesn't take place natuarally in conception (though instead of biological delivery system to transfer the DNA (sperm) one is injecting the DNA material directly into the unfertilized egg). Cloning itself is a pretty reliable process ( this in the understanding that anything that is repeatable about 50% of the time is considered a pretty reliable process in alot of scientific work) It's teh manipulation that could make one smarter/faster/stronger applied during gestation that has the chance of intorducing 'error' into the process.
Summary, were the BL genetically superior to normal pilots . . . yep. Were they better . . .who won?
C-ya
thing is viper it DOESNT have to trade taste, it just did the way they made them, had they been willing to spend the proper amount of money on even more breeding that wouldnt happen. Even today their are very lovely varieties that have more of the taste though they aint nearly as good as others, you can take the modern GE planets and now grow like 1000 plants and selectively breed them for better taste. Problem is that it is damned expensive, and people are still buying the poor tasting ones
True I stand corrected on that part but the deal is, you usually have trade-offs in any engineering. My point about the tomatoes, you can't have one that tastes wonderful without giving up some of the longer lasting or more climate forgiving properties of the GE's. It's a divivsion of resources within a plant/machine/ecosystem that says you always have to have a balance of some kind, a give and take if you will.
C-ya
cff
Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Incorrect. You have at least 2 differences science knows:
a) You are ignoring mitochondrial DNA. Only the nucleid DNA is used in cloning, the mitrochondrial DNA remains that of the donor of the unfertilized egg. So no - it is not a 100% copy.
b) You are essentially giving birth to an x year old being. The cells age faster and the lifespan is considerably shorter than that of the 'mother' as you use 'old' cells.
AFAIK cloning is far from anything close to relieable. I'd rather say 5% or so if you look at a single cell. Of course as you usually do it in masses one of the hundreds might work. You still get the problems I mentioned above however.
It doesn't even have to be an error. Stuff implies stuff. When I get a dark skin tone and so less likely skin cancer I'll OTOH have a vitamine D shortage if I live in Alaska.
a.) yep, that's pretty much how it works in labs around the world. Did I say anything to dispute that?
b.) It's DNA. DNA doesn't age. YOu can extract usable DNA from dead skin cells (not the kind you clone with just yet, but its the same as Tobey Macguire with eleventy-billion dollars, not yet
). You could take a DNA sample form me now and take one 20 years from now and there would be zero change.That's my bad, a zero crept in there. I did by chance mean 5%, I was after the fact that a process that's repeatable 95% of the time is, dammit I forgot the term, basically means a process is scientifically proven. If a process is 5% repeateable its looked into for development and improvement.
And I meant error as intorducing variables into a system that may cause the insanity that someone was talking about earlier. Course, no one really knows (at least to my knowledge) what causes insanity or other nuerological disorders but hey (to steal a point from a great movie) we're just playing with our father's loaded gun, no harm can come from that can it?
C-ya